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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    no /endthread

    second 0:15 brown orc

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Wispur View Post
    My biggest disappointment is with Orcs.
    The story line has made a very big deal about grey orcs and brown orcs joining the Horde.
    ...but it looks like we'll still be stuck with only green orcs? Way to ignore the lore they themselves built up.
    They already talked about including sub race choices later on

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Fool View Post
    Both Blood Elves and Draenei have a set of distinct face textures.
    In the case of Blood Elves the differences are not as pronounced as for example Gnomes, but it's much much better than female Worgen/Pandaren.
    He doesn't mean differences within the race. He's referring to how the draenei female faces are basically just recolours of the blood elf female textures.



    On the flat texture it's even more obvious:



    So yes, half-assing character models is nothing new.

  4. #144
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    second 0:15 brown orc
    thats not brown skin, its green.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    thats not brown skin, its green.
    pretty brown

  6. #146
    The Lightbringer Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    How about we SEE the new models and have a chance to decide.
    Maybe because by the time WE see them, everything for the models will be 99.9% done, nothing we say will affect how they are changed further, as the majority of the model has gone from concept to finish and is ready to ship.

    And I am not talking about the previews mid concept, those really were a treat because they showed us their idea for the model, not completed; which is something Blizzard never has done before outside of Blizzcon. And I can assure you that almost all of the model reveals will be finished and 100% polished, as Blizzard doesn't like unveiling anything half-done.

    So it is a legitimate concern because if we don't raise our concerns now in some form, nothing we say or do when they ARE done is going to change how the new models are customized.

    I'm pretty sure if you were a developer wouldn't want to work your ass off for hours on end, making a new skeleton and model for a character and finally finish it after months of work, suddenly be criticized for the lack of customization in the model and be asked to do it again and make changes. I am also sure you would just say "fuck it" and call it quits, changing nothing at all either.

    I know for a fact if I was making these models, I would like people to tell me they think I should go in a different direction sooner rather than later, because now I can take the concerns of my community into account as well and make an even better product for them.

    Blizzard is great at polish and quality, but that doesn't mean they can't do wrong. They ARE human beings, they can and will make mistakes at some point.
    Last edited by Lothaeryn; 2013-11-29 at 02:22 AM.
    And should he be a prophet of It's coming, he shall be cast out by his kin and his peers, for they cannot comprehend and fear the end of the corrupt empire. - Unknown, 3/1/2012
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  7. #147
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    pretty brown
    this is a mag'har brown skin tone.



    This is what you think its brown.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post

    Blizzard is great at polish and quality, but that doesn't mean they can't do wrong. They ARE human beings, they can and will make mistakes at some point.
    Yes, they are humans and they do make mistakes.

    But if they fuck up something so massively huge as this, when they promise us something so amazing from it, then they deserve to be scrutinized for it.

    people have waited a long time for character models to stop looking like something off the playstation 1, and now they get it, people don't want all characters to look identical to everyone else. skin tone, facial features, hairstyle alone won't cut it. Other mmorpgs allow you to choose a face, some even go as far in allowing you to uniquely design your face in full detail, so if blizzard can't even give us options for having a unique face, it will cause a massive uproar.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Latex View Post
    You say the problem started in cata but, aren't blood elf and draenei faces the same?
    The goblins would beg to differ. The fact is, animal based races have limited facial options for the same reason you can't tell the difference between one cow's face and another. There is no trend that things are being less customized. Animation makes things look less distinct but they're working on it. This cynical speculation is no more warranted than giving them the benefit of the doubt, it's just projection. I wasn't saying you should expect a bunch of new options, I was saying there's a chance for more than we thought we'd get and theres a chance we won't but at this point in time there's nothing to really say either way. Citing Pandaren and Worgen isn't a good example, they are based on animals. To give them extremely different faces is hard to do without making it look like another animal when you cant do things like give them different body types as well. Skin markings and decorations and hairstyles are used for anthropomorphic races.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    Maybe because by the time WE see them, everything for the models will be 99.9% done, nothing we say will affect how they are changed further, as the majority of the model has gone from concept to finish and is ready to ship.

    And I am not talking about the previews mid concept, those really were a treat because they showed us their idea for the model, not completed; which is something Blizzard never has done before outside of Blizzcon. And I can assure you that almost all of the model reveals will be finished and 100% polished, as Blizzard doesn't like unveiling anything half-done.

    So it is a legitimate concern because if we don't raise our concerns now in some form, nothing we say or do when they ARE done is going to change how the new models are customized.

    I'm pretty sure if you were a developer wouldn't want to work your ass off for hours on end, making a new skeleton and model for a character and finally finish it after months of work, suddenly be criticized for the lack of customization in the model and be asked to do it again and make changes. I am also sure you would just say "fuck it" and call it quits, changing nothing at all either.

    I know for a fact if I was making these models, I would like people to tell me they think I should go in a different direction sooner rather than later, because now I can take the concerns of my community into account as well and make an even better product for them.

    Blizzard is great at polish and quality, but that doesn't mean they can't do wrong. They ARE human beings, they can and will make mistakes at some point.
    I think it's ridiculous to think Blizzard needs our opinion to be aware of these issues. They are very talented artists and many of them work there because they are Warcraft fans in the first place. Given a choice each developer has all kinds of pet projects they'd love to see in the game, and one developer working on something in their spare time has made it to the game.

    Our feedback has ZERO effect on this outcome, barring a take over of the offical forums for a week with thousands of people complaining similar to Real ID. That's not going to happen here. Blizzard knows these ideas are cool, they aren't there for specific reasons, not because they didn't think of doing it themselves the majority of the time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You are NEVER going to get a guarantee on this kind of thing. Just knowing they have let us know they aren't decided yet on offering different orc posture should be appreciated as opposed to getting the usual silence we've had for the most part the last year and half. But leave it to this self entitled community to warp letting us know they are considering and debating expanded customization into a bad thing.
    Last edited by Yig; 2013-11-29 at 05:54 AM.
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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    thats not brown skin, its green.
    He means on the right slider. The 2nd square down is brown. Obviously it's not perfect by the second, so hit play at 0:15 and watch.

    EDIT: Nevermind, video glitch on my end. In addition to what Yig said, one of the squares was unloaded, so it darkened it.

    As far as the models, I don't know if they're finished, but it definitely feels like they're the same face with different wrinkles. This is a consequence of making the faces so damn animated - it would probably be a nightmare for the faces of old to be adapted for the new animations individually. As a result, a lot of the animations have expressions that old faces would have had all the time (for example, the psychotic looking orc face, or the angrier gnome face).

    I don't really like that, just shows a consequence of trying TOO hard on them and in the process removing a lot of the original state.
    Last edited by Grimmer; 2013-11-29 at 04:32 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmer View Post
    He means on the right slider. The 2nd square down is brown. Obviously it's not perfect by the second, so hit play at 0:15 and watch.

    As far as the models, I don't know if they're finished, but it definitely feels like they're the same face with different wrinkles. This is a consequence of making the faces so damn animated - it would probably be a nightmare for the faces of old to be adapted for the new animations individually. As a result, a lot of the animations have expressions that old faces would have had all the time (for example, the psychotic looking orc face, or the angrier gnome face).

    I don't really like that, just shows a consequence of trying TOO hard on them and in the process removing a lot of the original state.
    It's not brown. The quality of a cell phone video recording of a computer display along with the ambient lighting of background scene makes the mossy green color look vaguely brown in the video.
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  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    You are NEVER going to get a guarantee on this kind of thing. Just knowing they have let us know they aren't decided yet on offering different orc posture should be appreciated as opposed to getting the usual silence we've had for the most part the last year and half. But leave it to this self entitled community to warp letting us know they are considering and debating expanded customization into a bad thing.
    Please, tell me where anyone said it was a bad thing?

    Blizzard is not infallible. There are times when they get things wrong or have a skewed impression of what players want. We know from the female pandaren that even new, up-to-date models can suffer from a lack of customisation, so it is not unreasonable to ask Blizzard not to do the same with the model updates. And the time to be asking this is now, when things are still being decided.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    He doesn't mean differences within the race. He's referring to how the draenei female faces are basically just recolours of the blood elf female textures.



    On the flat texture it's even more obvious:



    So yes, half-assing character models is nothing new.
    Oh wow, I never noticed. Interesting.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    Please, tell me where anyone said it was a bad thing?

    Blizzard is not infallible. There are times when they get things wrong or have a skewed impression of what players want. We know from the female pandaren that even new, up-to-date models can suffer from a lack of customisation, so it is not unreasonable to ask Blizzard not to do the same with the model updates. And the time to be asking this is now, when things are still being decided.
    It was implied to be a bad thing when I was told "saying it's on their wishlist is just telling us they might do it someday and they never do most of the things they say they will do someday so it probably wont happen anyways so it doesn't matter if they said it's on their wishlist and that is no reason to have any hope or positive outlook at all" essentially.

    I criticize Blizzard all the time, don't pull that infallible shit with me. I also defend them when I find people making spurious attacks, which is basically constant here, because people are more inspired to post out of something bothering them than they are to praise something. I hate the female worgen and it's a disaster in my opinion, but it didn't happen because players didn't try to stop it. There was overwhelming criticism the moment it showed up on the beta forums, which changed nothing. I'm not saying to hold your criticism inside, but making a speech like we're standing at the Black Gate to Mordor rallying us all together as we valiantly give Blizzard an idea that is for the most part obvious while acting like Blizzard needs our help to point this stuff out is silly. There are so many arbitrary factors at play here behind why these things happen it's pointless to try and debate it really. By all means, make all the constructive criticism and opinions you'd like, but this "come on guys, let's get together and change this" attitude is just self aggrandizing. But really, the "we can change this" thing is not important enough to me to warrant this much commentary anymore and I'm not really that invested in the issue to keep discussing it. Don't mind me, carry on.

    And again, the Pandaren lack customization for reasons most of you seem to completely not understand. It's not because of a trend towards less customization but it is partly because of the advanced animations used in the faces, but to reiterate the animal races are an extreme example because they're based on animals, which did not evolve facial diversity as certain primates did. The more social a primate species, the more expressive and diverse their faces are. Biology goes out the window when cartoonists are trying to combine a canine with a primate. Every anthro race in this game going back to vanilla has limited facial options when it comes to actual structure, they opt for wrinkles and decorations in these cases.

    The Goblins demonstrate the Worgen females are not creating a new precedent. Context matters.
    Last edited by Yig; 2013-11-29 at 06:29 AM.
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  14. #154
    Dreadlord zshikara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    Given how many old timers (and former players) still haunt MMO-Champ, and how a lot of things poll around here, unless your "us" is referring to some loyal cadre who would gleefully pay Blizzard for the privilege of paying tic-tac-toe as long as the models were pretty and they were guaranteed epic loot, no "most" of us don't enjoy 95% of what Blizzard does.

    One reason that people are preemptively complaining and sharing their concerns about this and other changes is that if they do wait, Blizzard's unquestioning supporters will jump on them as claim things like, "it's too late now" and "you should have spoken up when you had the chance, now play or go away".

    MOST people do enjoy what blizzard does. Otherwise we wouldn't be playing the game still. Its just when we post on the forums saying we like something either we get no replies or get called a fanboi. So we don't post on the forums much. The vocal ones on the forums are the minority. Most of us are playing the game instead of posting on forums.

    Only reason I'm on the forums? I'm at work and can't play wow at work.

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