Thread: Guild Issue

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  1. #1

    Guild Issue

    So, for probably around 2 months or so we've been searching for a Warlock. People applied and weren't what we were looking for or failed to transfer/join when accepted.

    Around 2-3 weeks ago, our BrM Monk quit the game. We swiftly found a replacement. Having been playing Prot Paladin myself, I was also gearing a Warlock at the same time. The decision was made by officers that should we find another tank as my replacement, I would re-roll Warlock to better fill the rosters needs.

    In short, we're not sure it's worked. Tanks are pretty decent but during Malkorok progression have often been more of a hindrance than help (Loosing shields, taunting boss and not adds etc).

    In short, have we messed up with changing 2 tanks mid-progression? What would you suggest? A raider said to me last night; "You don't change horses mid-ride, you shouldn't change tanks mid-progress" and i'm getting the feeling he's right.

  2. #2
    I'd say so, yea. You went for the FOTM (expansion really) class, and left yourselves with 2 tanks who have no experience in your raids. A tank not being 100% on a strat is more likely to wipe you than a dps - after all, tanks control many elements of strategies.

    Between tiers changing tanks is fine (we did that - I was dps last tier) but I'd be uncomfortable bringing in someone from outside the guild mid tier.
    Frozendruid of Temerity - 14/14HC @ 12 hours/week.

  3. #3
    How can we answer that question for you? If the mistake rate is not acceptable then you probably messed up. Also, are the tanks losing the shields due to inappropriate CD usage / stack switching or are the healers not yet up to the job. Theres a lot of factors involved.

    Bear in mind that the errors tanks make are more glaring than those of dps. Fuck up your opener as a dps and it will likely go unnoticed. Tunnel the wrong add or boss for 10-15 seconds and it will likely go unnoticed. Get gouged as a tank because you lost focus for a second and a dps dies :P

  4. #4
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Tunnel the wrong add or boss for 10-15 seconds and it will likely go unnoticed.
    Gouge doesn't kill in lfr, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  5. #5
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Did you really need a warlock, leaving class balance aside? What would've you gained? Would your BrM stuck with the guild if you wouldn't have waited for a good player?

    Having a good tank tag team will make a difference in any fight. 2 new tanks mid tier is never a good idea
    a) learning how guild handles the mechanics
    b) healers have to figure out the dmg intake and the rough squishiness level of both tanks

    If you'd have stayed as you tank, then there
    a) would've been 1 tank that could walk the new tank through how things are handeled
    b) healers would know how to deal with 1/2 tanks

    Yes, you made a mistake by changing both tanks. No, you cannot change the fact that you might slowed your progression down. All you can do is hope now that both tanks (and your healers, as I do feel that loosing a shield is more or less healer deal (though then again I can heal my shield to full on my own as a guardian) in Molkorok) shape up a bit and you don't loose people while you try to find your game again.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-11-26 at 09:01 AM.
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  6. #6
    Changing a DPS is a hiccup. Changing a healer is a burp. Changing a tank is full-blown vomiting.

    It can be pretty hard to spot bad tanking. Many mistakes can be muddled over by the healers, and it's only when you can't spare that healing that encounters start failing. RNG does kill tanks from time to time, but is that a tank mistake, a healer mistake or general encounter fuckery? Did he fluff that taunt because he's not used to the fight, doesn't speak English well, or is he just incompetent. And you changed two of them.

    Still, plenty of time to go this tier. Not like you were going for a world first or anything, so it's probably not much you can do anything about now. One tank left and forced your hand. You're just going to have to work with it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Gouge doesn't kill in lfr, either.
    Since he mentioned picking up adds on Malkorok I assumed he wasn't progressing lfr with a new tank.

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Don't know. I joined my current guild while they were 11/14H and while I didn't really "replace" a tank (our brewmaster wants to play windwalker, but so strong for garrosh) we've since then gone from world 52 > 29

    On my Warrior alt I joined a world 230 guild (3d/week) and that same week we got siege+paragons hc and are now world ~80.

    Swapping tanks mid-race is a bigger risk, but the reward can also be much bigger.

  9. #9
    Like someone else said, it's too hard to say.

    Maybe the tanks aren't as good and you took a step back as a result. However, maybe they aren't being given the benefit of the doubt because they are new. If you are an amazing warlock then maybe it's a short term loss, but long term gain because overall your roster is better. If you're an average warlock and that same amount of dps could be achieved by someone else, then maybe it wasn't a good idea.

    One thing is for certain, at least one of the tanks almost always sets the tone for a number of intangible raid issues - calm, confidence level, sense of control. These are important things and if you have two new people who don't feel like they can speak up and project these things or if the rest of the raid team doesn't have respect/trust in them then you can have big problems.

  10. #10
    The other night my 10 man raid had 4 warlocks and 2 druids. I'll trade you a lock for someone to soak up all this plate that keeps dropping.
    Is this where the header goes?

  11. #11
    I've seen both tanks loose full health/shields within seconds. I'm pretty sure thats not a total healing failure but it will have stayed a part of it. We've had situations where taunting the add has lead to taunting the boss back instead taking them to 19-20 stacks before they've realized.

    Appreciate all the feedback. I guess it was a very bold move getting 2 new tanks in and was probably kind of rash from the officers but I guess for now, grin and bare?! D:

  12. #12
    Field Marshal AnaMonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Did you really need a warlock, leaving class balance aside? What would've you gained? Would your BrM stuck with the guild if you wouldn't have waited for a good player?

    Having a good tank tag team will make a difference in any fight. 2 new tanks mid tier is never a good idea
    a) learning how guild handles the mechanics
    b) healers have to figure out the dmg intake and the rough squishiness level of both tanks

    If you'd have stayed as you tank, then there
    a) would've been 1 tank that could walk the new tank through how things are handeled
    b) healers would know how to deal with 1/2 tanks

    Yes, you made a mistake by changing both tanks. No, you cannot change the fact that you might slowed your progression down. All you can do is hope now that both tanks (and your healers, as I do feel that loosing a shield is more or less healer deal (though then again I can heal my shield to full on my own as a guardian) in Molkorok) shape up a bit and you don't loose people while you try to find your game again.
    As a healer on Malkorok HC I know when the tanks fuck up and dont taunt right, as that shield goes bye bye, and another stack ontop of that (i.e. still no taunts) and your tank will loose his actual hp.

    Its a ridiculously simple fight to heal if the tanks don't mess up taunting. The challenge is to rely on competent people to soak stuff right and not walk into orbs.

  13. #13
    Legendary! Blueobelisk's Avatar
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    You never change tanks. I mean you can, but you always keep one tank and at least one healer from your core/pro/officer group there. You can't have two random people leading your raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeno344 View Post
    Appreciate all the feedback. I guess it was a very bold move getting 2 new tanks in and was probably kind of rash from the officers but I guess for now, grin and bare?! D:
    Wrong. You go back tanking.

  14. #14
    I have the option of the Brewmaster coming back. As he never left the guild but chose to stop, I don't see why this would be an issue? Although several members of the raid team aren't a huge fan of him due to him always calling people out on their mistakes.

    Also, not sure I can really go about kicking/removing the other tanks. Maybe get the Druid to go Boomkin but she lacks experience in the spec.

    #GUILDSTRESS

  15. #15
    It's just a game, calm down and do what's best for your team. The people kicked will get over it.

  16. #16
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Since he mentioned picking up adds on Malkorok I assumed he wasn't progressing lfr with a new tank.
    I was more referencing how you wouldn't even make it through normal with that sorta switching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  17. #17
    The most important part of a raid team is the synergy of the tanks. The better they are as a team, the better it will be for the raid team.

    Tbh changing 2 tanks in the middle of the hc progression was not a good idea. Since those tanks don't know how your team operate and work together, it will be a mess.
    The best thing you could have done was for you to stay a tank and recruit 1 tank. At least then you could have teached the other tank how you do things, and you could learn to be a team quicker.

    Get the druid to go boomkin and run some flexi with her. Give her a bit of time to get some experience in the boomkin spec.
    That way if you wanted to later on, you could have a team of three tanks. When the hc progression settles down, you can swap position with her so that the 2 new tanks will get more experience as a team together without compromising the progression.

  18. #18
    Legendary! Blueobelisk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeno344 View Post
    I have the option of the Brewmaster coming back. As he never left the guild but chose to stop, I don't see why this would be an issue? Although several members of the raid team aren't a huge fan of him due to him always calling people out on their mistakes.

    Also, not sure I can really go about kicking/removing the other tanks. Maybe get the Druid to go Boomkin but she lacks experience in the spec.

    #GUILDSTRESS
    Which is more important, progression or having fun? If the answer is progression, "sorry tanks but you guys aren't doing what we need to progress, please switch to a DPS spec and/or step down." Then bring Brewmaster and you back. If you raid for fun, then just carry on.

  19. #19
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Alternate benching the tanks and run your prot pally for the fight. Work with them on what they are doing wrong. It sounds like it's just an experience thing, knowing they are getting benched will motivate them to get their shit in order.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrasti View Post
    When a homeless person is rambling in the streets, it's better to ignore them than argue with them. On the internets it's clearly better to spend an entire week proving them wrong.

  20. #20
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    Many things can cause tanks to lose there shields on malk. DPS derping on soaking the void zones=explosion=tank shield gone or very low. Bad combination of add/boss melee can take your shield low or gone in a global. It's happened to me many times, through nothing I could really control. The trick is your tanks need a solid way of always knowing the size of there shield. They need to be vocal as well, and call out the moment there shields drop so healers can react and prioritize getting it built back up.

    Replacing both tanks mid-heroic progression seems very risky. I know my co-tank and I have been working together since Firelands. Days I've had to be absent, we have a couple offtanks who fill in. I am always met with feedback from my healers on how much different things go (in a bad way unfortunatly). The synnergy two tanks who have been side by side for many tiers is something that simply cannot be quantified. We do so many unspoken things, as we both know how each other plays so well. We know instinctivly how each other moves, when taunts are going to happen, when we need to take over for the other, and so many other intangible things. That chemistry only happens from years of working together. While it can work, as the fundamentals and mechanics of tanking are fairly basic. It's all those unspoken things that you'll miss, and the void those things leaves is very noticeable at times. In addition, if your healing team has gotten used to the way the same two tanks take damage, throwing in new elements can cause those new tanks to appear more "squishy". Healer/Tank synnergy is a huge factor in meaningful progression.
    Last edited by Sinthetik; 2013-11-29 at 01:48 AM.

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