1. #1
    Warchief Ron Burgundy's Avatar
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    Question hemo sword spec?

    is hemo swords still viable like it was in classic? i remember it being a very fun spec to play in pvp. it was really overpowered.
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  2. #2
    Short answer: No.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Mibzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfernalDark View Post
    Short answer: No.
    Long answer; Just no.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgundy View Post
    is hemo swords still viable like it was in classic? i remember it being a very fun spec to play in pvp. it was really overpowered.
    Doable, but not viable. Too much damage lost - backstab hits like a truck.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    They removed all weapon type complimenting talents and passives in Cata, why would it be "fun" now when it really just only does less damage?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgundy View Post
    is hemo swords still viable like it was in classic? i remember it being a very fun spec to play in pvp. it was really overpowered.
    It was not overpowered.


    It is viable. But don't do it unless you have a really good sword and a really bad dagger, and if you do, work on getting a good dagger.


    In the olden days, hemo's damage came from the fact that it was not normalized- it did the same damage as an autoattack, sometimes with a multiplier. They normalized hemo in Lich King. In Cata, to avoid having to swap between mainhand sword and dagger, they finally fixed the issue where the spec was good at backstab, but also had hemo. They fixed this by buffing hemo such that it gets a boost when using a dagger. The boost, around 40%, is right about the damage you gained from using a sword over a dagger. So when you hemo with a 522 dagger and a 522 sword, both do the same damage. They applied a mirrored fix to ambush, where the sword can now ambush for about the same as a dagger. Because they really intend the spec to be run with a dagger, backstab remains dagger only, and your most effective builder in general...


    So in pve, you are losing out like crazy without a dagger to backstab.

    In PvP, on the other hand, you will often have very very few backstabs in your kill cycle, and your damage outside of that will be bad. You will often have a harder time fishing for combo points, and the need to use them for recuperate and kidney shot, so you will often press hemo a lot. This minimizes the loss should you be using a sword. The sword is never better than the dagger, assuming equal item level, but backstab happens so rarely in PvP that you will often play like a classic hemo rogue when it comes to building combo points.

  7. #7
    The main reason hemo swords is not viable is because 1/3 of hemo's damage is tied to a DoT that doesn't stack. Hemo is actually very close to backstab in terms of damage-per-energy, you just need the DoT to go full duration to get that benefit, so spamming it is basically hemo doing 33% less damage.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    The main reason hemo swords is not viable is because 1/3 of hemo's damage is tied to a DoT that doesn't stack. Hemo is actually very close to backstab in terms of damage-per-energy, you just need the DoT to go full duration to get that benefit, so spamming it is basically hemo doing 33% less damage.
    I think the dpe is greater when the full dot is factored in, right? I'm pretty sure I do less damage if I just backstab and never weave in a hemo. But the dot, or lack thereof, isn't really what the OP is about. The OP is referring to an older pvp spec, that is not very different from today's- in that both spam hemo to build combo points. In PvE, your CPs mostly just become rupture, slice and dice, or eviscerate, and you don't want to make unwise decisions with your energy normally, but in PvP, you often are willing to empty your energy bar for a control or a heal, or to give yourself a kill window later (you often have to burst an enemy down from full, so a bit more damage right now won't help, but having a full duration slice and dice for when your kill window is, might).

  9. #9
    @OP
    You remember hemo so fondly because it was one of the few rogue abilities that didn't get normalized in vanilla so it would hit ridiculously hard for a very cheap energy cost with the right weapon. Totally got normalized later on though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    It was not overpowered.
    Uh yeah it was, at least for certain portions of vanilla if you had access to the right weapons.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Uh yeah it was, at least for certain portions of vanilla if you had access to the right weapons.
    I had (have, really) a Teebu's a pretty sweet 2.9 speed weapon. But overpowered was mortal strike, which halved healing (only thing in the game like that), or double trinket pom pyro fireblast, which could one shot if it crit, or how certain classes scaled into BWL and Naxx gear. A hemo rogue did far less damage than a combat rogue with any weapon- even a slow weapon- but the advantage was, hemo (26 point in sub) meant you could get prep (21 point in sub) and have access to cooldowns.


    Hemo rogues were good, but not because of hemo.



    Again, there weren't ratings back then, and the game was pretty deviant. But if you actually wanted broken, it wasn't the rogue.


    EDIT: To be clear, the above refers to vanilla.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    @OP
    You remember hemo so fondly because it was one of the few rogue abilities that didn't get normalized in vanilla so it would hit ridiculously hard for a very cheap energy cost with the right weapon. Totally got normalized later on though.



    Uh yeah it was, at least for certain portions of vanilla if you had access to the right weapons.
    You mean like a misplaced servo arm? Ya that hit hard as hell I'm bummed that I vendored mine since that model isn't around anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I had (have, really) a Teebu's a pretty sweet 2.9 speed weapon. But overpowered was mortal strike, which halved healing (only thing in the game like that), or double trinket pom pyro fireblast, which could one shot if it crit, or how certain classes scaled into BWL and Naxx gear. A hemo rogue did far less damage than a combat rogue with any weapon- even a slow weapon- but the advantage was, hemo (26 point in sub) meant you could get prep (21 point in sub) and have access to cooldowns.


    Hemo rogues were good, but not because of hemo.



    Again, there weren't ratings back then, and the game was pretty deviant. But if you actually wanted broken, it wasn't the rogue.


    EDIT: To be clear, the above refers to vanilla.
    Hemo was fun because it hit harder than SS so gave better burst but ya over all it wasn't that strong dps wise. If you wanted to solo pvp the vigor (assassination 31 point talent) build as backstab with the 5 pc. nightslayer set bonus was the best for that with a huge energy pool, great control and great burst. For general bg use combat was the way to go since you hit hard and didn't have to worry about positional requirements and had a steady high stream of damage.

    Rogue's were plenty over powered and to say otherwise is foolishness. 1v1 rogues were the best class in the game hands down and the best world pvp gankers out there. They were super strong in bgs as well and I typically got top KBs each bg I was in. Warriors were extremely good and with a pocket healer all the extra damage they took just transferred into more and more rage for more damage which is why back in TBC double healer warrior comps were so strong. Casters sucked in pvp outside of CDs where they blew someone up. Everything was hard cast so they had to stand there and take it.

    Btw if you wanna talk about OP. Protection paladins were op as shit 1v1. A rogue would do his stunlock routine on them and do everything they could to blow them up, they'd DS right at the end, heal up, DS would fall off then they'd reck bomb one shot anyone lol.

  12. #12
    Kazzak still has nightmares about Prot Paladins.
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  13. #13
    Mmm, try it out and post your logs as hemo daggers vs. hemo swords. Then we can see exactly how much of a difference it makes.

    I mean everyone says "no! bad! wrong!" but I've never seen anyone actually quantify it.
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  14. #14
    Switching a locally available rogue profile to sub from assassination (570 gear) and switching the MH from a 572 dagger to a 572 sword after making Hemo the main builder:

    Backstab profile: 362k
    Hemo dagger MH profile: 336k
    Hemo 2.6 MH profile: 326k

    So it's looking like swapping to a sword is a ~3% drop... after the 9% drop caused by not using backstab in the first place. Final profile use for example. (Sorry for the response delay, was out of town)
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-12-01 at 07:07 AM.

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