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  1. #21
    If i were you i'd reclear on normal to kill garrosh, but swap to heroic on norushen and give it a couple pulls, as it's exactly the same boss on normal and heroic, and tbh if DPS is an issue on norushen heroic (say ~20% hp left on enrage) with proper execution you have almost no chance of downing garrosh. Also downing your first heroic will give you a confidence boost, and that always helps.

  2. #22
    As some others have mentioned, with your limited raiding time per week, extend the lockout to clear the instance. You are losing out on three tier tokens by not downing those bosses, not to mention weapons and trinkets. If your group can down Garrosh, then that's a good indication you are ready to move into heroics. Which bosses will be easier or more difficult on heroic will be based on your individual group. Many of the heroics are tuned very tight and are unforgiving in mechanics. For my guild, Protectors and Galakras were the easiest based on wipes before first kill, but we killed the first 6 in order. Kill numbers from wowprogress would also agree on tackling them in order. Both Protectors and Norushen require 1.7 to 1.8 million DPS to meet enrage. We three healed both and barely hit enrage on our first kills. I would definitely work on clearing normal before taking on the heroics.

    Edit: Just glanced at your log link, and it looks like you will be short a good chunk of DPS for the heroics. Extend your lockout and keep progressing through normal until you've downed Garrosh.
    Last edited by Sakamae; 2013-11-26 at 10:46 PM.

  3. #23
    Like most of the people in the thread already suggested, the best bet for you is to keep focusing on the normal modes until you have Garrosh down.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Moofarah View Post
    but most our team are 558-562 item level now and don't want to bother clearing 11 bosses they don't particularly need.

    As such they're all pushing to start Heroics
    I get that you don't need gear, but if you can't kill bosses 12-14 then at the very least you have attitude issues because people are raiding for loot and not for kills.

    Also, your pala healer is very weak. Hes using DP which is terrible for holy, didn't use a single healing CD (He should have 4 strong ones with HA) and hes spamming Light of dawn which is shit. He has eternal flame talented which he used once in a 4:30ish fight. He could be eternal flame blanketing his nuts off to top off shields and despite the fact you had 3 healers people died due to a lack of shields.

    Also your mage had a 27% bomb uptime on the same fight which is beyond bad since its a strong DoT and its what he gets his damage procs from. (Hes also using the wrong bomb for a single target fight)

    In short I'd tell people to up their game and change their attitudes a bit. You'll get rolled by the first few heroics if you are doing the basics like that poorly.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    I get that you don't need gear, but if you can't kill bosses 12-14 then at the very least you have attitude issues because people are raiding for loot and not for kills.

    Also, your pala healer is very weak. Hes using DP which is terrible for holy, didn't use a single healing CD (He should have 4 strong ones with HA) and hes spamming Light of dawn which is shit. He has eternal flame talented which he used once in a 4:30ish fight. He could be eternal flame blanketing his nuts off to top off shields and despite the fact you had 3 healers people died due to a lack of shields.

    Also your mage had a 27% bomb uptime on the same fight which is beyond bad since its a strong DoT and its what he gets his damage procs from. (Hes also using the wrong bomb for a single target fight)

    In short I'd tell people to up their game and change their attitudes a bit. You'll get rolled by the first few heroics if you are doing the basics like that poorly.
    Niiiiiiiiiiice & constructive thanks bro. I knew he's under performing but with no idea of how paladins work I had no idea what to look at....

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Moofarah View Post
    Niiiiiiiiiiice & constructive thanks bro. I knew he's under performing but with no idea of how paladins work I had no idea what to look at....
    Sorry I forgot to mention that's for the malkorok fight. It's a good fight to look at for 2 reasons, its the closest to a patchwork fight for dps and the shield mechanic means you can see what output healers are achieving since theres very little overheal.

    If you want the pala to improve get him to post in the "fix my heals" section of the pala subforum. The people there are pretty constructive. However he can start by using Holy avenger as a talent and smacking 3 holy power EF's on the tanks and himself as prio and then others as needed. EF means you need to anticipate damage a little since its proactive rather than reactive. After that he needs to mix in his healing CD's. He should have holy avenger, Avenging wrath, divine favour and GoAK.

    But to bring it back on topic, extend if you are on a short schedule. To make the most of your time make sure people research the fights. Siegecrafter is short but brutal (don't fuck up the belts and tanks have to kill the add or bad things happen), Paragons is just several key mechanics like aim / shield bash etc and garrosh boils down to getting the empowered whirling corruptions right and interrupting MC'd people.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Sorry I forgot to mention that's for the malkorok fight. It's a good fight to look at for 2 reasons, its the closest to a patchwork fight for dps and the shield mechanic means you can see what output healers are achieving since theres very little overheal.

    If you want the pala to improve get him to post in the "fix my heals" section of the pala subforum. The people there are pretty constructive. However he can start by using Holy avenger as a talent and smacking 3 holy power EF's on the tanks and himself as prio and then others as needed. EF means you need to anticipate damage a little since its proactive rather than reactive. After that he needs to mix in his healing CD's. He should have holy avenger, Avenging wrath, divine favour and GoAK.

    But to bring it back on topic, extend if you are on a short schedule. To make the most of your time make sure people research the fights. Siegecrafter is short but brutal (don't fuck up the belts and tanks have to kill the add or bad things happen), Paragons is just several key mechanics like aim / shield bash etc and garrosh boils down to getting the empowered whirling corruptions right and interrupting MC'd people.
    Yea i figured it was the malk fight ^^ Thanks very much though will help a lot! Now just to persuade him that he is not 'best healer eu' and to do some wider reading xD

  8. #28
    Focus getting 14/14 then worry about heroic mode.

    Why?
    You're not in the race for progression, you're a casual group that's still 11/14n at 6 or so hours per week. Just focus on beating up bad guys and moving through the tiers of difficulty at a decent pace for you. All these people talk about gear and whats best route, but for progression. You do what you guys enjoy doing.

  9. #29
    honestly if you can't clear the whole thing in 5-6 hours on normal your probably not going to kill much on regular.

    I know that my group can do from iron jug (our current heroic progression boss) to garrosh in about 2 hours, even if we just do our farm heroics we can clear the whole thing in just over 3 hours.

  10. #30
    As the others here, I would recommend to kill Garrosh before doing any heroics.

    We are raiding slighlty more than you (9h/week), but before we managed to kill garrosh (3 weeks ago) we were already able to kill all the other boss in 3 hours. So it still fits to your schedule.

    And as some people say, Immersus & co are far from being easy (exept Norushen but you will probably have to drop a healer for progression).
    Last edited by Sandwhale; 2013-11-27 at 03:27 PM.

  11. #31
    We're a 6 hour/week guild and we needed to extend to kill Garrosh. We did for 2 weeks straight to ensure a kill.
    The first 6 heroics dropped in under a night each for us. I'd highly recommend killing Garrosh first before you go to Heroics, though.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedni View Post
    We're a 6 hour/week guild and we needed to extend to kill Garrosh. We did for 2 weeks straight to ensure a kill.
    The first 6 heroics dropped in under a night each for us. I'd highly recommend killing Garrosh first before you go to Heroics, though.
    This is refreshing to hear I was half expecting another 'We're a 6 hour raiding guild too, but we're 11/14 hc u must be really bad' post.

  13. #33
    Immers, norushen and maybe protectors and gala on heroic were all easier than normal garrosh imo.

  14. #34
    Here's a list I put together from World of Logs data you might find helpful. It's the kill/wipe ratio of the 10man heroic bosses (its from a couple of days ago so not up to date). I was thinking that in theory the ones with a higher success rate would be the 'easier' ones.

    10 man heroic

    Immerseus (9.3 % success) 20,823 kills, 204,237 wipes.
    The Fallen Protectors (14.6 % success) 25,417 kills, 148,784 wipes.
    Norushen (stats are bugged so it's not showing no. of wipes) 27,141 kills.
    Sha of Pride (15.7 % success) 21,168 kills, 113,652 wipes.
    Galakras (20.0 % success) 19,307 kills, 77,055 wipes.
    Iron Juggernaut (13.5 % success) 16,084 kills, 103,323 wipes.
    Dark Shamans (11.9 % success) 12,018 kills, 89,229 wipes.
    General Nazgrim (15.2 % success) 12,805 kills, 71,327 wipes.
    Malkorok (5.6 % success) 8,103 kills, 137,838 wipes.
    Spoils of Pandaria (6.3 % success) 6,032 kills, 89,293 wipes.
    Thok the Bloodthirsty (6.0 % success) 2,869 kills, 44,686 wipes.

    No logs for the last 3 bosses were available when I did this available.

    Don't know if that helps or not but with Norushen down we'll look at Galakras tonight then next reset Protectors. To me they sound like the 'easier' heroics because by and large they don't change that much between normal and heroic. This is our first week in to heroics after a few delays because of roster changes etc so we decided to have a chilled week. Norushen was simple (in that the strat is basically identical to normal) however the dps requirement is higher. On average my raid group is a little ahead of yours dps wise, and we 2 healed Norushen and killed him on our 6th attempt literally at the moment it enraged.

    Also looked at other logs and it looks like you guys are wiping on siegecrafter. I'm sure there are some heroics that are easier than normal garrosh (Norushen definitely is) but I'm not sure you'll find any heroic to be easier than the first 13 normal bosses. Garrosh is a good test for your whole raid imho, everyone needs to be on top of things, but if you're really dead set on taking a short cut you should at least kill 13/14 before heroics imho. We're a 6-7 hour a week guild so we had to extend the lockout a couple of weeks back to get the Garrosh kill. It was worth it though.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...pes&boss=71504

  15. #35
    Once you've full cleared normals, and feel that you can dedicate at least half your time to heroics, AND still full clear normal for gear you need that same week. If you've just cleared the last few on normals, it's very likely that you're going to need gear from them for the next few weeks, and you won't want to pass up those drops for one more wipe of practice on a heroic boss.

    That being said. Looking at your malkorok kill, your raid has the dps for the first few heroic bosses (although your brewmaster should pick up his damage by a sizable margin, and get rid of that godawful juggernaut trinket they're using.)

    Immerseus can probably be 4 healed and still beat enrage, protectors can be 3 healed and the enrage will be fairly irrelevant, and the damage output won't instagib your raid unless you miss inturrupts on gloom. Norushen actually does have a fairly decent enrage on it, and I imagine it would be tough to 3 heal with your raids dps, but you do have the two best tanks for going down and clearing their add really quick so that they can run around and soak orbs. Sha of pride is mainly a "don't die to stupid" fight and you'll meet enrage... it might get a little dicey below 30% as to whether or not you'll kill him before your entire raid is mc'ed.

    I'd say clear 14/14, reclear to get a time estimate on how long you need to full clear normal, then anytime you have left you should put into heroics.
    Last edited by britishbubba; 2013-11-28 at 04:41 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by britishbubba View Post
    Once you've full cleared normals, and feel that you can dedicate at least half your time to heroics, AND still full clear normal for gear you need that same week. If you've just cleared the last few on normals, it's very likely that you're going to need gear from them for the next few weeks, and you won't want to pass up those drops for one more wipe of practice on a heroic boss.

    That being said. Looking at your malkorok kill, your raid has the dps for the first few heroic bosses (although your brewmaster should pick up his damage by a sizable margin, and get rid of that godawful juggernaut trinket they're using.)

    Immerseus can probably be 4 healed and still beat enrage, protectors can be 3 healed and the enrage will be fairly irrelevant, and the damage output won't instagib your raid unless you miss inturrupts on gloom. Norushen actually does have a fairly decent enrage on it, and I imagine it would be tough to 3 heal with your raids dps, but you do have the two best tanks for going down and clearing their add really quick so that they can run around and soak orbs. Sha of pride is mainly a "don't die to stupid" fight and you'll meet enrage... it might get a little dicey below 30% as to whether or not you'll kill him before your entire raid is mc'ed.

    I'd say clear 14/14, reclear to get a time estimate on how long you need to full clear normal, then anytime you have left you should put into heroics.
    Yea decided to extend lockout for last 3. And how dare you criticize me! (the brewmaster) haha. How would you suggest increasing my dps without relying on vengeance? Also don't have lege dps cloak and no trinkets ever drop

  17. #37
    you can do a 11/14 normal clear in like 1.5 hours, why skip? also you might as well do h norushen

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Moofarah View Post
    Yea a few of our raid members joined a PuG after our raid days to kill Garrosh so we are able to start HCs. @Raiju i did suggest extending our lockout so we can finally get our achievements but I think overall they are more keen to start HC bosses!
    Hmm... I usually wouldn't tell you how to run your raid, but I can't recommend skipping normal mode content just to see heroics. I don't judge your team to be ready if they haven't done the more challenging normal modes, yet. For me, it would be a non issue, since indeed the first few HCs are easier than Garrosh, but your problem is that you can't judge the difficulty of Garrosh, not having done it yourself. Even if a couple of guys have pugged him. It's easy to get dragged through content when you get the strategy served to you. It's quite a different matter if you have to work on it as a group. You may not be able to reproduce that PUGs performance, because you apparently don't have the same skillset in your raid.

    You need to get it across to your raid that it's not a matter of motivation and "fun". They could very well ruin the experience for themselves by wiping to supposedly "ez mode" bosses if they don't do it properly. Steamrolling through normals is not exactly the gauge you're looking at, since the first 11 bosses are a joke on normal. I personally can hardly tell the difference between normal, Flex and LFR raids there.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Moofarah View Post
    Yea decided to extend lockout for last 3. And how dare you criticize me! (the brewmaster) haha. How would you suggest increasing my dps without relying on vengeance? Also don't have lege dps cloak and no trinkets ever drop
    The best thing to do first to increase your DPS is replace that juggernaut trinket with literally any DPS trinket you can find. It's a pretty worthless trinket beyond the small amount of crit you can get from reforging the dodge away. If you have a renetaki's of any kind that would probably be best as you can just change all of your exp/crit gems to agi/crit and you'll be good. I personally use Bad Juju/Haromm's for almost every fight (I swapped Haromm's out for a flex malk trinket when we did malk progression). Pretty much any ToT trinket is better than jugg trinket, including the shado-pan assault trinket, even if it were a LFR level trinket (except maybe RoO due to the proc rate).

    Next way to increase your dps would be to hit Kegsmash more. Looking at your malkorok kill, and taking into consideration that you died, you did end up missing a fair amount of kegsmashes. Work on getting that off CD as it not only gives you the damage from the KS, but it also gets you a BoK so even without vengeance each KS is worth a lot of dps.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7...?s=9547&e=9814

    On that kill you had about 10% downtime due to dying, so we'll pretend the fight length was 240s instead of 267s. Assuming you were to hit KS every 9 seconds (pretty much optimal due to GCD) you should have gotten 26 in. You only got 21 in which caused you to lose out on 5 BoK which since they're critting for 200k+ on average... well, you can see where the damage loss rolls in.

    Looking at your chi wave bounces, you left it on CD long enough through the fight to lose 7 uses. It's typically best to just hit that on CD, especially if you want to maximize damage done.

    As a side note, none of that is taking into consideration that you were in zen med for 6 seconds. I would probably count 1 of each of those as not really missed as I assume you were in zen med for blood rage.

    Just remember that any extra damage you put out as a brewmaster isn't just helping kill the boss faster. It's shielding someone in your raid for probably near their entire healthbar which during heroics is HUGE. I know for our spoils progression last week it was huge for the mogu side. Some people didn't even take damage from the massive crate's AoE.

  20. #40
    yea literally died with boss @ 2% hp going into a breath because i was too lazy to move.... Bit of a newbie when it comes to reading logs. How can you see how many keg smashes you missed? Came back to PvE in 5.4 so literally have 0 other trinkets Anyways thanks for feedback Time to (keg)smash siegecrafter in the face tonight

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