Do the Wod Lvl100 talents make Ret Pallies a force in PvP now?

[Omaski]

Just took a look at the new lvl 100 talents for retribution pallies coming in Warlords of Draenor and it looks like our woes are finally over (mostly).

while we still have a terrible defensive toolset, "The Light Within" and especially "Divine Conviction" seem like the abilities we need to put crazy pressure out and make other players play defensive.

Im thinking, if i take divine conviction and divine purpose. if i get a few DP procs, i may be able to 100%-0% a player in a HoJ and i may not even need to pops wings yet. And taking The light within will get me more sustained damage when using seal of truth.

What do you guys think about the lvl 100 talents when it comes to Ret PvP?

[draconith1]

It would probably be easier for everyone to discuss this topic if you were to provide the talent choice descriptions in the OP. Here, I'll provide for everyone else.

First Talent Choice: The Light Within

Holy
Bastions of Light
Passive
Beacon of Light can now be placed on up to two targets

Protection & Retribution
Empowered Seals
Passive
Your Seals also cause your Judgment to empower you with an additional beneficial effect:
Judgment of Justice – increases your movement speed by 10% for 20 seconds
Judgment of Insight – heals you for 3% of your maximum health every 2.00 seconds for 20 seconds
Judgment of Righteousness – increases your attack speed by 10% for 20 seconds
Judgement of Truth – increases your attack power by 10% for 20 seconds.

Second Talent Choice: Seal of Faith

623 Mana
Instant
Fills you with Holy Light, causing you to gain Faith equal to all damage dealt. Faith acts as spell power toward the next healing spell you cast.

Holy
While Seal of Faith is active, all damage dealt is increased by 30%

Protection & Retribution
While Seal of Faith is active, all damage dealt is reduced by 30%

Third Talent Choice: Divine Conviction

Holy
Saved by the Light
Passive
When you or your Beacon of Light target drop below 30% health, you instantly grant the injured target a protective shield, absorbing up to 30% of their maximum health for 10 seconds. You cannot shield the same person this way twice within 60 seconds.

Protection
Holy Shield
Passive
Increases your block chance by 10% and when you block, you deal 2000 Holy damage to your attacker.

Retribution
Final Verdict
3 Holy Power – melee range
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
Empowers your weapon with holy energy, and performs a devastating strike, dealing 250% weapon damage as Holy. Replaces Templar’s Verdict.

OT: honestly speculating is fun but in truth there is absolutely no way to tell how abilities are going to pan out in WOD in regards to pvp based on the simple fact that there isn't even a beta yet. All of the talents are going to be subject to change many times before the start of the expansion.

[Deleted]

Not really about palas, but the monk 100s gave me a nerdgasm :O DID YOU SEE EM??

[Rennegadelawlz]

The all out war between bad and good ret pallies argued my thread about this to a screeching halt and closed due to one person arguing with everyone. So watch out with the storm comes here cause this could turn into a cry baby thread.

The first talent is like a condensed sinple version of the old wrath judgments. The second talent is chop suey, blizz didn't think it through too much for holy. And divine conviction has the best hypothesis for best performance come lvl 100 in WoD.

But until then.

[Korgoth]

I dont get what about those is that great. First and 2nd are meh. With the 3rd you have a hard hitting attack that bypasses armor, but Enh Shamans have that, are they a force?

Also what is 250% weapon damage? Without full level 100 stats how do you get a good indication of the actual damage it will deal, will that turn out to be 10%, 20%, 30% of someones health?

[Verain]

Well, 250% of weapon damage will probably be similar in WoD to today. Weapon values aren't changing relative to anything else.

[Korgoth]

250% doesnt sound big enough to me to make Rets a force by itself, It shouldnt be that much more on Cloth then Slam with C Smash up, since Slam is 275% + 4k. But then with class changes, new stats (amplify?), who knows.

[nightfalls]

They are not even final whatsoever and will probably undergo many changes. I wouldn't put much stock in them atm. I mean, we can look at how good each particularly talent is but I'd imagine we would still get minor toolkit changes with a new expansion (for all specs).

[Wow]

250% doesnt sound big enough to me to make Rets a force by itself, It shouldnt be that much more on Cloth then Slam with C Smash up, since Slam is 275% + 4k. But then with class changes, new stats (amplify?), who knows.

Well the thing is that becoming holy dmg means it would be boosted 30% by Inquisition.
As for the op's question we know nothing of the pvp changes of wod at all really so no ones knows anything useful about any class.

[Pewpewwindeeps]

Divine Conviction more than doubles the damage of Templar's Verdict.
Just some napkin math here:

Weapon damage = 10,000

Normal Templar's Verdict = 275,000
Normal Templar's After Armor Reduction On A Plate Class(~50%) = 137,500
Normal Templar's After Armor AND Baseline Resilience = 38,500 (Critical Strike=77,000)

Divine Conviction Templar's Verdict = 250,000
Divine Conviction Templar's Verdict After Armor Reduction On A Plate Class(~50%) = 250,000
Divine Conviction After Armor AND Baseline Resilience = 70,000
Divine Conviction After Armor AND Baseline Resilience AND Inquisition Buff(30% more holy damage) = 91,000 (Critical Strike=182,000)
Total Damage of Divine Conviction Templar's Verdict + Mastery Proc(assume 25% mastery)= 113,750 (227,500 if Critical)

Now just think about using Avenging Wrath and Holy Avenger.
Hammer of Wrath>Templar's Verdict>Exorcism>Templar's Verdict>Judgment>Templar's Verdict>Crusader Strike>Templar's Verdict>Hammer of Wrath>Templar's Verdict

Basically, every other GCD is capable of taking off 45% of someone's health in the current state of the game. You get 4 GCDs in a Fist of Justice. And let's not forget that Hammer of Wrath still hits like a massive truck.

Keep in mind, also, that I didn't even factor in Avenging Wrath's 20% increased damage done into any of that math. This is broken and needs to be seriously looked at. I, for one, welcome this change to go live, as I love playing Retribution

[Omaski]

if you roll divine purpose with divine conviction, and get 3-4 procs of DP back-to-back (which is not common but can happen)....your enemy will basically be dead in a hoj

[Skarssen]

With any change in PVP, you have to ask yourself one question; Will the change make the spec/class better at killing/countering frost mages? If the answer is yes, it will be nerfed, probably before you have a chance to log in. If the answer is no, it might still get nerfed, but at least the frost mage QQ won't be able to induce a nerf 24 hours or less. PVP in this game is "balanced" around frost mages, so you really don't want any changes that will inconvenience or anger them or you will be nerfed so fast your head will spin.

Divine conviction looks to be a mild buff to ret against frost mages, so I would expect a slight toning down, but it isn't like it guarantees ret beats frost mages in duels. That is something you never want to see.

[Pewpewwindeeps]

Valex, read my math. I have it correct, I assure you. It more than doubles Templar's Verdict's damage. Can't TV hit for 100k currently? Hmmm…...

[Vintersol]

Valex, read my math. I have it correct, I assure you. It more than doubles Templar's Verdict's damage. Can't TV hit for 100k currently? Hmmm…...

My ilvl 505 warrior hits for 450k slam crits (cs up). My ilvl 520 ret hits for 180k tv crits (without mastery) (pve mode). I don't see a real issue damage wise, but with dp proc luck, it should slightly op. ^^

[Terahertz]

250% doesnt sound big enough to me to make Rets a force by itself, It shouldnt be that much more on Cloth then Slam with C Smash up, since Slam is 275% + 4k. But then with class changes, new stats (amplify?), who knows.

Templar's Verdict, presuming mastery stays, also does extra damage through mastery. Also don't forget that Inquisition might be affecting the Templar's Verdict talent since it's all holy damage anyways, which means it gets a straight up 30% damage boost.

[ipoststuff]

I did some math based on current pvp gear. If the talent was available today it would double the damage of TV on plate armor. And its a 50% increase on cloth. This would make rets anti-heavyarmor melee imo.

[nightfalls]

I did some math based on current pvp gear. If the talent was available today it would double the damage of TV on plate armor. And its a 50% increase on cloth. This would make rets anti-heavyarmor melee imo.

Not really, if you haven't noticed most melee have mechanics that are intended to counter armor (which makes armor class differences quite small these days). For instance CS, Find Weakness, Ascendance.

[Wow]

Not really, if you haven't noticed most melee have mechanics that are intended to counter armor (which makes armor class differences quite small these days). For instance CS, Find Weakness, Ascendance.

Those are tied to cd's those aren't going to be there 100% also cs and fw are only 50%.

[nightfalls]

Those are tied to cd's those aren't going to be there 100% also cs and fw are only 50%.

Reducing 50% armor lowers the gap between plate and cloth a lot though. Especially during burst when it "matters the most" regardless. My point is that yes, Rets will ignore a lot more armor with Holy TV, but I wouldn't put it as *the* anti-plate class (especially since all melee have a way to burst and ignore armor, and casters obviously ignore all armor anyway).

[Lucetia]

The first talent is like a condensed sinple version of the old wrath judgments. The second talent is chop suey, blizz didn't think it through too much for holy. And divine conviction has the best hypothesis for best performance come lvl 100 in WoD.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but do you mean old BC judgments? Wrath was basically system we have now whereas in BC we seal twisted and that's what the The Light Within talent seems to be going with. Which I just want to say makes me want to say it because I enjoyed the twisting with the seals, but the Holy TV could pack a good punch too.