Scottish Government releases "White Paper" on Independence

[Rend Blackhand]

Has Scotland taken into account all the MOD contracts and shipbuilding that all takes place there? If they pull out of the union there is no way they will keep these industries.

A nation that sits permanently on the UN security council cannot have its big warships built in a foreign country. Shipyards in portsmouth were closed to save scottish shipbuilding and having contacts in glasgow cancelled would make that for naught.

[Spikeychris]

The Icesave dispute is completely irrelevant. Iceland's economy was fine for 63 years, with the 2008 crisis truly crushing the country due to barely any state-regulation on privately-owned banks. Other than that, it has done mighty fine for such a small, barely industrialized country.

Also, Norway is also trying to be green despite being very relient on oil money, and it's doing fine.

Norway is smart and invested its oil money wisely but unless we build a time machine Scotland is a bit late to the party for setting up an oil fund like Norway did. Norway does what British Columbia does exports their fossil fuels and claims they have a green economy because its not THEIR emissions.

[Deleted]

Iceland is a fraction of the size. Its fishing stocks are massively depelted. Its financial sector imploded and it had to default on its debts and its struggling to raise capital as no one trusts it to borrow money any more.....

Not the best example.

Its fishing stocks are massively depleted? Wait what?

And again, the financial sector deploded due to unregulated banks, which really has nothing to do with the Icelandic economy in general.

[Deleted]

A nation that sits permanently on the UN security council cannot have its big warships built in a foreign country. Shipyards in portsmouth were closed to save scottish shipbuilding and having contacts in glasgow cancelled would make that for naught.

I live in Pompey and know people that have lost their jobs over it, I hope the Scottish people appreciate it for now because they won't keep them if they go independent. We have all the experience, manpower, docks and equipment all in place here ready to take it all back.

[Frozenbeef]

Their funeral if they leave :P Wales will become our new bff and we shall love each other for ever! despite welsh reluctancey !

[Deleted]

Its fishing stocks are massively depleted? Wait what?

And again, the financial sector deploded due to unregulated banks, which really has nothing to do with the Icelandic economy in general.

it was just an example of an economy which is reliant on a volatile resource (in scotlands case, oil), and with a dodgy financial sector. Just highlighting that its not the best example to use for Scotland....after all its economy totally imploded!

Norway would be better I think

[Deleted]

Nothing will change other than the fact we now run our own affairs. Thats it, or rather, thats how it should go down. No need to change flags, no need to mess around with currency, the EU should more than certainly accept membership.

All that the Government wants is to beable to fully govern its people.

Can't you accomplish all of this with devolution max?

Seems with that you can have your cake and eat it.

[Deleted]

Nothing will change other than the fact we now run our own affairs. Thats it, or rather, thats how it should go down. No need to change flags, no need to mess around with currency, the EU should more than certainly accept membership.

All that the Government wants is to beable to fully govern its people.

to be honest, instead of splitting the union i'd rather just see it changed, give each country more power, similar to states in the USA. As it stands at the moment, England doesn't even have a parliment, it has Westminister which is suppose to represent the whole union, but really it mostly represents England, and i think Scotland has a bit more power than Wales/NI.


i do wish Scotland all the best though in whatever it votes to do.

quick question though, what currency does an independant Scotland plan on using? does the SNP want to adopt the Euro, keep the sterling or make their own?

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From my point of view I work as a university researcher the vast majority of research funding comes from UK national funding bodies such as NERC, MRC etc the scottish ones have very little money. We would be completely fucked if Scotland gets independence.

could fix it nearly though with a change of budget, make cuts in other areas, i imagine Scotland won't be spending much on defense for example.

[Deleted]

Can't you accomplish all of this with devolution max?

Seems with that you can have your cake and eat it.

Devo Max being on the ballot was blocked by Westminster, go figure.

I have to say, this thread has filled my "Predicted this" metre right up. It's pretty fascinating to read. Pretty nice break from all the jargon in the document.

[Deleted]

it was just an example of an economy which is reliant on a volatile resource (in scotlands case, oil), and with a dodgy financial sector. Just highlighting that its not the best example to use for Scotland....after all its economy totally imploded!

Norway would be better I think

It was dodgy, the new Icelandic government after the financial crash simply decided to reset the entire economy and implement new laws that let the state regulate banks a bit more.

Also, I never tried to compare Scotland to Iceland, I just wanted to say that Scotland should do relatively fine, seeing how a country like Iceland could survive. I definitely believe Scotland has more in common in terms of economy with Norway.

[Deleted]

Nothing will change other than the fact we now run our own affairs. Thats it, or rather, thats how it should go down. No need to change flags, no need to mess around with currency, the EU should more than certainly accept membership.

All that the Government wants is to beable to fully govern its people.

(and can we ban the word "braveheart" on this thread, so that I dont end up killing myself 3 pages in because of a PoS movie that has no historical accuracy to it)

That's pretty fanciful. Scotland has a disproportionate number of civil service jobs compared to the rest of the UK. For example, the Student Loans Company employs a large number of people in Glasgow. After independence, why would the rest of the UK have a company from outside the UK running our student loans system for us? And Scotland has free university education! What would likely happen is that those jobs, and a number of other civil service jobs would head south over the border.

As for "messing around with currency" the whole point is that Scotland wants to manage its own financial affairs. Creating some sort of currency union with the UK seems to be missing the entire point.

As an Englishman I don't really care if Scotland leaves or stays, but if Scotland does leave I think there's a very strong case for dissolving the rest of the UK and making England an independent country too. Quite honestly Scottish independence could be a really good thing for England.

[Kraenen]

I'm not sure why independence would be so great...Do they really have a way of sustenance?

[Deleted]

to be honest, instead of splitting the union i'd rather just see it changed, give each country more power, similar to states in the USA. As it stands at the moment, England doesn't even have a parliment, it has Westminister which is suppose to represent the whole union, but really it mostly represents England, and i think Scotland has a bit more power than Wales/NI.


i do wish Scotland all the best though in whatever it votes to do.

quick question though, what currency does an independant Scotland plan on using? does the SNP want to adopt the Euro, keep the sterling or make their own?

agreed. Make westminster a federal government, and give ALL UK nations a parliament.


as for currency:

salmond wants, the euro, no the pound, no the euro, no a new currency, no the euro, no the pound......even if he has to use it "unofficially"


Thing is it would be silly for the UK to enter into a currency zone, as it woudl potentially end up in the UK bailing out scottish banks, giving scotland a veto over tax and interest rates, and that will not wash with the remaing UK electorate in any way.

[Rend Blackhand]

I live in Pompey and know people that have lost their jobs over it, I hope the Scottish people appreciate it for now because they won't keep them if they go independent. We have all the experience, manpower, docks and equipment all in place here ready to take it all back.

It was unjustified, I think. What makes Glasgow shipyards more important than Portsmouth ones? Maybe its nothing to do with that though and BAE are just arseholes.

[Spikeychris]

Can't you accomplish all of this with devolution max?

Seems with that you can have your cake and eat it.

Yes they could accomplish this with devolution max but we arn't getting a chance to vote on devolution max because "extra options would confuse the voters". Because you know we are all idiots and can't understand how to select answers to two questions I mean our heads might implode! (or devolution max is far more likely to pass than idependence and people who are on the fence will vote for devolution rather than idependence so the SNP don't want the option. A bit like why they are allowing 16-17 year olds to vote in it because they think they are more likely to vote yes).

[Deleted]

I'm not sure why independence would be so great...Do they really have a way of sustenance?

of course.

But the question is, at what level of spending?

the white paper suggests:

Raising minimum wage
upping income tax thresholds
settign up a sovereign wealth fund
lowering the pension age
giving free child care
setting up new "army", security services etc...
lowering corporation tax
increased spending on health
setting up a new broadcasting agency...


amongst other things.
But does not actually say what would be cut to pay for it.....stran

[Frozenbeef]

I don't even know why you want to leave, you get the same treatment as English, Welsh and Irish and sometimes even better *cough* free uni *cough*

[Deleted]

I don't even know why you want to leave, you get the same treatment as English, Welsh and Irish and sometimes even better *cough* free uni *cough*

they get better treatement than the Welsh and northern Irish, wales doesn't even get to be on the flag!

[Deleted]

It was unjustified, I think. What makes Glasgow shipyards more important than Portsmouth ones? Maybe its nothing to do with that though and BAE are just arseholes.

Emphasis on the B there, We won't keep our main naval assets in a foreign countries port, meaning that the current largest Naval port (Faslane in Scotland) will need to be closed. That is where we keep our nukes and most of our Submarines, so it is pretty vital.

[Deleted]

Emphasis on the B there, We won't keep our main naval assets in a foreign countries port, meaning that the current largest Naval port (Faslane in Scotland) will need to be closed. That is where we keep our nukes and most of our Submarines, so it is pretty vital.

wonder where that stuff would be moved to, doubt they'd keep the nukes in somewhere like Portsmouth. probably find somewhere in Wales.