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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by mackie View Post
    Or you know, due to the fact that Scottish people are treated like second class citizens?

    As burns said, "We are bought and sold for English gold. Such a parcel of rogues in a nation."
    I live in Yorkshire.

    Conservative governments have shat upon the North for a long time, devastating it.

    It is rebuilding itself, yet still does not garner the funding London does.

    Hardly anyone in the north votes Conservative these days (save a few southern exclaves, lol).

    FYI, there are roughly the same number of people living in Yorkshire as Scotland.

    Would we like independence a la Kingdom of Northumbria? Aye, we are arrogant like that, why not!

    Do we really want it, no.

    A few more powers would be nice, restablish the Council of The North, set up by Edward IV please (no, not that shitty abortion that was the Yorkshire Assembly a few years back).

    And there you go.

    'Second class citizen'? At least you have some powers, don't get greedy now :P

    And, haven't vast swathes of Westminster MP's been, you know, Scottish passing the laws that make their own country men, 'second class'?

    Oh wait, that is exactly the gamble the SNP are trying to pull off, devo-max.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mackie View Post
    You have next to no idea what you are talking about. Have you even a slight idea of what we are talking about or do you just wish to throw some random words in to show you are an idiot?
    The language was a little childish in places but what makes your crystal ball more reliable than his?

    Do not forget, whatever you may believe, the 50+ million people of England, Wales & NI might just choose to be offended by Scotland leaving the Union.

    A happy divorce would be nice, but the mud slinging has not even started really yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerean View Post
    As an American I utterly respect their entitlement to self-government and if they vote for it, well that's their choice and god-given right.
    Soemthing, something, Confederate States of America? Annexation of Hawaii? Annexation of all Aboriginal nations?

    Just be careful, because your politcians aspouse the be the freedom mongers of the world, does not mean that is or has been the case.

    The UK certainly doesn't, some secretly crave spending trillions on armed forces and invading a few old colonies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Istaril View Post
    It's something that's been perpetuated by certain elements of the British media.
    Hundreds of years of propaganda on both sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Orkney and Shetland are in Scotland. Its just the name of 2 islands.
    But they don't vote SNP. Would they be able to stay in the UK?

  2. #442
    From what I've seen of the pro independence for Scotland movement it's all based on the idea that Scotland would get the best possible assets when they split. They'd somehow manage to bag a minimum if not zero amount of UK debt, full access to sterling and instant membership to Europe. This for a start ignores the fact that during a split UK public would never stand for a government which doesn't give Scotland it's share of debt and would be extremely anti sharing sterling given there view on the Euro which has many issues due to it being a currency shared by so many nations. Then you have countries such as Spain who are actively trying to discourage there own mini break ups (Catalonia) and would be highly likely to use Scotland as there punch bag to show how they would treat Catatonia's bid to go independent and become there own nation within the EU.

  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Are you taking the piss or what? I thought this was a real discussion.
    Eh? The democratic views of those islands are irrelevent?

    A slight foretaste of the can of worms to be opened over the coming year.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    They are Scots... what are you getting at?
    Well if Scotland go independent they establish the right of people to determine there fate so if a group within Scotland say they want to break away based along an old border or island basis what right do they have to object? Given the Shetland back if the mid 1400's was actually property of Norway they could easily argue they no longer wish to be part of Scotland and want to return to there roots.

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    They are Scots... what are you getting at?
    I think they are saying that they are also British, and if they want to remain British it should be up to them to decide.

    That would only be relevant if they have some form of autonomy, like the Isle of Man, which I don't think they do. I may be wrong as I know little about their official status, nor do I particularly care.

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    They are Scots... what are you getting at?
    Lets see - 2011 Scottish Parliament Elections.

    Turnout = 50.4%

    SNP = 902,915 votes

    Roughly 4,000,000 eligible voters at the time of that election.

    902,915 / 4,000,000 = 23% of voting population voted for a mandate for referendum (assuming thats the only reason they voted SNP, clearly it is not)

    Just saying, not much of a mandate from my point of view.

    I'll say it again, ask ask and ask those hard questions, you are gambling with future generations who may or may not appreciate the responsibility you are going to have.

  7. #447
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    The latest polls don't look too good for the Yes campaign.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottis...option_polling

    The last three polls give a lead for the No vote of 9-29%, with only one poll giving a 1% lead for Yes back in August - other than that one, the No vote has had a lead of between 8-30% throughout 2013.
    Last edited by Kalis; 2013-12-03 at 09:30 PM.

  8. #448
    I don't think its too terrible for Scotland if they vote no, its highly likely and possible that Westminster will devolve more power into Scottish hands.

  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    I don't think its too terrible for Scotland if they vote no, its highly likely and possible that Westminster will devolve more power into Scottish hands.

    this is the option i'd rather see, but didn't Westminster already turn down that option?

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by peggleftw View Post
    this is the option i'd rather see, but didn't Westminster already turn down that option?
    Yep pretty much the UK wants Scotland to decide if there part of UK or a separate country, the thin slicing away of powers from Westminster to Scotland was just becoming too much. Most now just want a line drawn under the entire thing and simply deal with whatever the outcome of the vote is. UK though wants Scotland to stay but is willing and likely prepping for how to act should

  11. #451
    Ah ok, Ive been out the loop too long, I studied government and politics nearly 10 years ago, I guess times have changed

  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    The latest polls don't look too good for the Yes campaign.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottis...option_polling

    The last three polls give a lead for the No vote of 9-29%, with only one poll giving a 1% lead for Yes back in August - other than that one, the No vote has had a lead of between 8-30% throughout 2013.

    that 1% lead one, was by a polling agency that is renowned for returning inaccurate and biassed polls. So I'd disregard it to be honest, as I woudl for any poll that is so outside the margin of the other polls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daws View Post
    Yep pretty much the UK wants Scotland to decide if there part of UK or a separate country, the thin slicing away of powers from Westminster to Scotland was just becoming too much. Most now just want a line drawn under the entire thing and simply deal with whatever the outcome of the vote is. UK though wants Scotland to stay but is willing and likely prepping for how to act should
    devolution is ongoing, Scotland already has a vast array of powers, and are getting more next year, so its not clear exactly what additional powers they need.

    The only thing they cant do right now from that white paper, is remove trident, every other thing in that white paper can be done now under current powers.
    Last edited by mmoc37d54b0df8; 2013-12-03 at 10:29 PM.

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by takeshiIsu View Post
    that 1% lead one, was by a polling agency that is renowned for returning inaccurate and biassed polls. So I'd disregard it to be honest, as I woudl for any poll that is so outside the margin of the other polls.
    Indeed, it would seem that 30-35% are in the Yes camp, 45-50% for No, and 20% are undecided.

    The big issue for the Yes campaign is if they can get a high proportion of their supporters to turn out, and hope that the majority of No supporters don't bother polling, i.e. win due to voter apathy.

    For something as major as this, I don't understand why they would settle on a straight majority of votes cast, and not have to obtain over 50% of the total available votes, as that would be a clear mandate from the Scottish people - though the polls indicate they have fuck all chance of doing that, so it wouldn't be in their interests to do it.

  14. #454
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    that 1% lead one, was by a polling agency that is renowned for returning inaccurate and biassed polls.
    Now you're just making shit up. Panelbase has never been singled out as a biased polling agency. Reality doesn't warp to your needs I'm afraid.

  15. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istaril View Post
    Now you're just making shit up. Panelbase has never been singled out as a biased polling agency. Reality doesn't warp to your needs I'm afraid.
    actually quite well known as an agency that can get you a poll with the results you want.

    You are aware its quite easy to bias a poll, without appearing to. Its hard to get accurate results, which is why polling accurately is a sought after skill and those that present results that are, shall we say, slanted a certain way, also get a rep.

    But thats irrelevant to this thread.

    Lets just say, that any stat so far outside the margin should be disregarded unless it can be totally explained, and not go into the reasons as to why that stat defies all the other results.
    Last edited by mmoc37d54b0df8; 2013-12-04 at 12:08 AM.

  16. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by takeshiIsu View Post
    actually quite well known as an agency that can get you a poll with the results you want.

    You are aware its quite easy to bias a poll, without appearing to. Its hard to get accurate results, which is why polling accurately is a sought after skill and those that present results that are, shall we say, slanted a certain way, also get a rep.

    But thats irrelevant to this thread.

    Lets just say, that any stat so far outside the margin should be disregarded unless it can be totally explained, and not go into the reasons as to why that stat defies all the other results.
    That poll can also be ignored as the three subsequent polls from Panelbase show a majority of 8-10% in favour of the No vote.

    If they are biased, then the Yes vote looks doomed regardless.

  17. #457
    Independence would suck right now for Scotland, for the simple reason that they'd need to join the Euro. Salmond claims they would be able to keep the pound (hoping to win votes), but this is nonsense and he knows it. You need to join the Euro to get into the EU, simple.

    Good luck going independent without the free trade and relaxed border control of EU member states.
    Originally Posted by Tigole
    I'm not so sure endgame players would like the face of the game if everyone had instant access to all of the content. There is something to be said for progression and the sense of accomplishment. Don't get me wrong, we have to be careful not to create a brick wall for new people, but I think there is a balance to be struck here.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by RumlyD View Post
    Independence would suck right now for Scotland, for the simple reason that they'd need to join the Euro. Salmond claims they would be able to keep the pound (hoping to win votes), but this is nonsense and he knows it. You need to join the Euro to get into the EU, simple.

    Good luck going independent without the free trade and relaxed border control of EU member states.
    As part of the UK Scotland already has tighter border controls than most of the EU. If there are issues with joining the EU they'll likely still enjoy free-trade with the with it in a similar way to Norway, meaning they'll enjoy most of the benefits of membership but with no voice in the European Parliament.

  19. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by peggleftw View Post
    this is the option i'd rather see, but didn't Westminster already turn down that option?
    Some people suspect that is what the SNP is ultimatley fishing for, given the fact the White Paper is so weak (and does no align with the SNP's 'strong' prior claims).

    The UK parliament know this, and are acting (and will act) accordingly

    A 'No' quote will have disastrous consequences for the SNP in my opinion, and I think that is exactly what many people want to happen.

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    Also, lets stop calling it independence.

    It is the dissolution of the Act of Union (1707).

    Scotland has (and will continue) to do well from it!

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