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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Obviously spree is good. But when combat rogues make up such a trivial representation 2200+, it feels really absurd to have someone walk in here and talk about rogues as if they are "cheesy", and exaggerate numbers wildly to make their point. And yes, the numbers are an exaggeration. A warrior in dstance takes 25% less, plate halves all the damage except the shadow blades autoattacks, and the warrior was claimed to have over 700k health, and a base resilience of 70% reduced damage. No one is dying inside of an incomplete cheap shot with those stats.
    You're saying I'm making shit up? Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    http://i.imgur.com/idNM9kb.jpg

    Here is one combo against a target dummy. Deadly Poison ticked for a bit after Killing Spree ended, so the dps number is a little low, but the damage itself is mostly accurate.

    Also, something else to note is that you hit extremely fast and Paralytic Poison will proc sometime during Killing Spree, giving you a longer stun.

  2. #22
    Shadow Blades -> autoattacks -> crazy damage

  3. #23
    As others have said, it's very cooldown based now, moreso than before. If you pull off a good shadowdance you can do a ton of damage, and with cooldowns survivability is pretty decent. But once shadowdance is over, and you've used your cooldowns, you're pretty worthless compared to most other melee classes. Also, stunlocks aren't nearly as effective these days with the diminishing returns. You pretty much don't ever want to open with cheap shot, in my experience, unless you think it's going to be a very fast kill or don't plan on using kidney shot for a few finishers. I guess killing spree is pretty effective too, but most of my experience is with subtlety.

    And yeah, ramp up time is worse now than before, that's the main reason I don't enjoy rogue as much as I used to. You basically have to have slice and dice and recuperate up at all times to be efficient, and arguably rupture, so it takes longer than you might like to get to the stuns and burst.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    You're saying I'm making shit up? Thanks.
    People overreport pvp happenings all the time, and it's not an attempt to deceive. My money is on, your opening burst did so much damage to him that you counted the battle as being pretty much over at that time, and you went on to win. Not that you literally burned through all that damage in that timeframe.

    Lets look at your claimed damage:

    First global: Cheap Shot
    Second global: Slice and Dice
    Third Global: AR + Bladespree
    Stun ends before spree.

    First, if this was your goal, you should have popped AR and Shadow Blades during Cheap Shot- they aren't on the global. Second, if what you claimed was true, your first at most three killing spree hits would be responsible for this damage- 6 million to be precise.

    Doing what you claim, I can't get much more than 3.3 million on the mostly armorless level 60 target dummy, 3.8 if I put the GCDless guys on the first thing. I'm at 565 item level, and I'm pve reforged (haste), but you mentioned nothing about a mastery stacked build or anything that could do that. Going to full heroic gear will increase damage- weapons especially- but it won't double it or anything, and doubling would be needed.

    Plus remember this is all damage going to the end of the SPREE- not the end of the STUN, which you reported. Your damage would have to be quadruple mine in order for what you reported to have happened. Simply put, you misinterpreted a lot of damage and then overreported burst results, which is super common.

  5. #25
    I feel rogue's burst is similar to a lot of classes cooldowns up. Then cooldowns off, rogues are terrible compared to everyone. I mean they have CC but everyone has tons of cc now...

  6. #26
    Actually, a lot of classes have similar cooldowns and CC to rogues. They just never lost their niches when they gained ours.

    Back in vanilla, rogues had blade flurry and adrenaline rush as dps cooldowns, and many classes had literally nothing as a dps cooldown. Rogues have always had damage cooldowns, but in recent times everyone got them.

    Lets look at some pedigree:

    Adrenaline Rush: Vanilla
    Blade Flurry: Vanilla
    Vanish: Vanilla
    Vendetta: Cata
    Shadow Dance: LK
    Shadow Blades: Mop

    Ok. Now lets check out warriors:
    Recklessness: Vanilla (with a 30 minute cooldown)
    Retal: Vanilla (with a 30 minute cooldown)
    Bladestorm: LK
    Shattering Throw: LK
    Skull Banner: MoP
    Dragon's Roar: MoP
    Avatar/Bloodbath/Stormbolt: MoP

    This is a recent issue. Rogues are designed right. They just decided to make everyone have really super great cooldowns, which they had to invent from whole cloth, very recently. Now it's 'an issue'. But, it's fine for rogues. They just need to roll this shit back for everyone else.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    People overreport pvp happenings all the time, and it's not an attempt to deceive. My money is on, your opening burst did so much damage to him that you counted the battle as being pretty much over at that time, and you went on to win. Not that you literally burned through all that damage in that timeframe.

    Lets look at your claimed damage:

    First global: Cheap Shot
    Second global: Slice and Dice
    Third Global: AR + Bladespree
    Stun ends before spree.

    First, if this was your goal, you should have popped AR and Shadow Blades during Cheap Shot- they aren't on the global. Second, if what you claimed was true, your first at most three killing spree hits would be responsible for this damage- 6 million to be precise.

    Doing what you claim, I can't get much more than 3.3 million on the mostly armorless level 60 target dummy, 3.8 if I put the GCDless guys on the first thing. I'm at 565 item level, and I'm pve reforged (haste), but you mentioned nothing about a mastery stacked build or anything that could do that. Going to full heroic gear will increase damage- weapons especially- but it won't double it or anything, and doubling would be needed.

    Plus remember this is all damage going to the end of the SPREE- not the end of the STUN, which you reported. Your damage would have to be quadruple mine in order for what you reported to have happened. Simply put, you misinterpreted a lot of damage and then overreported burst results, which is super common.
    I apologize for not putting it in my original post, but I clarified later, I am and was using Paralytic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Also, something else to note is that you hit extremely fast and Paralytic Poison will proc sometime during Killing Spree, giving you a longer stun.
    The screenshot above is against a boss level target dummy, which has 35% armor.

    I'm guessing the difference between our damage is that I'm more geared (472) with two slow weapons rather than a dagger in the offhand, warforged+heroic warforged trinkets, and I'm also an engineer. All of that added up is a ton of weapon damage and agility during the burst.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Hannival View Post
    Hey. Old player here, not sure if i should renew my subscription.

    Left the game mid wotlk, never leveled to 80 (74 atm) on my undead rogue. Do rogues still have their signature burst damage (think rogues in vanilla, warglaives in tbc, sub backstab in late wotlk) in pvp?

    I`m not so sure i want to come back if in world pvp if all a rogue does is apply bleeds and spam snd for that white damage, that just reminds me way too much of spamming ss, rupture and snd as a combat rogue back in bc dungeons. Boring and slow gameplay is not my thing.

    Also, do rogues have good survivalability with CD:s? From what i`ve been reading, we do shitty damage AND have bad survivalability. Is that true, and if so, in which context? (RBG, WPvP, arenas)

    I`m mostly interested in WPvP and arenas.
    Rogues are one of the highest damage classes atm in pvp, with probably the most burst in the game. It's based around CD's mostly, and all 3 specs are viable to some degree right now, but sub is the best and has the most burst. With CDs you are almost guaranteed to land a kill if you're not peeled or they pop multiple CDs because rogues burst so hard. This is for good rogues though, not average rogues who just spam.

    SnD is sub's energy regen now, so you do have to use it, but most rogue burst comes from eviscerate and ambush (during subterfuge/shadow dance).

    That being said rogue survivability can be pretty bad, mostly against melee like warriors. If you spec into feint (Elusiveness I think the talent is called), it's a spammable 30% dmg reduction, which is pretty nice. That with recup gives you decent survivability, on top of your other cooldowns. Also, rogue mobility is ridiculous atm since you basically have permanant sprint/snare breaks with burst of speed (15 energy/no cd/4 sec 70% sprint/snare break), so rogues are hard to kite and hard to stay on top of if you're getting peeled.

    Rogues are probably one of the best pvp classes atm, most of the good ones quit however. There's 5 rogues in the top 50 3v3 spots, 2 of them are rank 1 and rank 2. Anyone who says rogues are bad is either inexperienced or jaded, they are very good right now.

    http://www.twitch.tv/djpikaboo/

    ^ Is probably the best rogue playing right now and he streams quite a bit so check it out if you want to see what the class is like atm.

  9. #29
    Leveling a sub rogue and from what I see; with Sanginary veins with Premeditation/ Ambush/ SnD/ Rupture/ Eviscerate/ Backstab with things like Nerve Strike and Cheat death we can do a lot of dot and burst dmg in quite a small amount of time and escape unharmed or not dead in the case something went wrong.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    I apologize for not putting it in my original post, but I clarified later, I am and was using Paralytic.
    Yes, that changes your claim from "he died before the stun was over" to "he died sometime in the second stun without trinketing anything". That takes your damage cycle from ludicrous and bursty to achievable in 455+ gear, and respondable by someone who has defensive buttons keybound and macroed (such defensive macros make handy full pvp counters to burst macros- trinket, dstance, shield equip, shield wall, all can be triggered instantly and the warrior's damage taken will go down by a factor of 2). Claiming that you got a kill in 4 seconds and not a complete spree would be a different thing than a kill sometime in 6-7 seconds.

    And ofc anyone without a trinket deserves to die horribly in pvp- you don't even need cooldowns to ensure that.

    The screenshot above is against a boss level target dummy, which has 35% armor.
    And a 572 warrior will have more than 50% reduction as well- hell, 522 warriors clock in over 40% these days.

    I'm guessing the difference between our damage is that I'm more geared (472) with two slow weapons rather than a dagger in the offhand, warforged+heroic warforged trinkets, and I'm also an engineer. All of that added up is a ton of weapon damage and agility during the burst.
    Your gear doesn't matter, the correct data does. I would be SHOCKED if your spree was even 35% harder than mine, and you needed a factor of 3 or 4 to explain the cheap shot scenario. A heroic warforged weapon strike is not even 20% harder than a regular hit, after all, and a second slow weapon is around 15% more damage.

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