1. #1

    Looking for help with 10 N Siegecrafter Blackfuse

    We put in 23 pulls on Siegecrafter over the course of about three hours last night, but were unable to down him. We got him low (sub-10%) a handful of times, but we were scrambling by the end of each pull. I'm very much getting a feeling of panic from several of our raid members, which I believe is causing some basic mistakes and leading to our wipes, but I'm hoping that someone can have a look at our logs and see if there's anything totally obvious we're missing.

    It seems that on most pulls we have either a healer or tank death fairly early on in the fight - usually around the time the first magnet is allowed through on the belt. It's usually our warrior tank that dies at this point, but that may just be due to the tank rotation in the fight. Our pally pulled first on every pull, so maybe he's not being put in the same situation as our warrior which is why we aren't seeing the same kind of deaths from him. I really don't know anything about warrior tanking, so I'm having trouble analyzing his death logs.

    We use (what I think is) a pretty standard strategy - the ranged/healers are mostly stacked, dropping sawblades and fire to the side of the group. When it gets a little too crowded, we shift the ranged group and the boss to the side so that we have more room to drop stuff. After/during the first magnet, we reposition in the same general location as we were when we started the fight, repeating these motions as necessary. Belts did not seem to be a problem for the most part. We have a fury warrior soloing a belt and a rogue or a hunter (we switched it up as the night went on) on the other belt and we only got a shield a couple times.

    If anyone would care to have a look at our logs and offer any advice, that would be greatly appreciated!

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-v4ffgtoep9u8x2za/

  2. #2
    I'll admit that I'm not good at reading logs, but it looks as if you're taking quite a bit of damage from overloads. On average, how many stacks do the shredders hit before they die?
    STRESS
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    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    I'll admit that I'm not good at reading logs, but it looks as if you're taking quite a bit of damage from overloads. On average, how many stacks do the shredders hit before they die?
    Shredders are generally hitting 4-6 stacks before they die.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by gewdgewd View Post
    We put in 23 pulls on Siegecrafter over the course of about three hours last night, but were unable to down him. We got him low (sub-10%) a handful of times, but we were scrambling by the end of each pull. I'm very much getting a feeling of panic from several of our raid members, which I believe is causing some basic mistakes and leading to our wipes, but I'm hoping that someone can have a look at our logs and see if there's anything totally obvious we're missing.

    It seems that on most pulls we have either a healer or tank death fairly early on in the fight - usually around the time the first magnet is allowed through on the belt. It's usually our warrior tank that dies at this point, but that may just be due to the tank rotation in the fight. Our pally pulled first on every pull, so maybe he's not being put in the same situation as our warrior which is why we aren't seeing the same kind of deaths from him. I really don't know anything about warrior tanking, so I'm having trouble analyzing his death logs.

    We use (what I think is) a pretty standard strategy - the ranged/healers are mostly stacked, dropping sawblades and fire to the side of the group. When it gets a little too crowded, we shift the ranged group and the boss to the side so that we have more room to drop stuff. After/during the first magnet, we reposition in the same general location as we were when we started the fight, repeating these motions as necessary. Belts did not seem to be a problem for the most part. We have a fury warrior soloing a belt and a rogue or a hunter (we switched it up as the night went on) on the other belt and we only got a shield a couple times.

    If anyone would care to have a look at our logs and offer any advice, that would be greatly appreciated!

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-v4ffgtoep9u8x2za/
    When our group started on it, it definitely took them a little bit to get the dance down. Once your two Belt players are golden, it's all about the rest not derping. Survive the dance and the boss will die.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Defaulty View Post
    When our group started on it, it definitely took them a little bit to get the dance down. Once your two Belt players are golden, it's all about the rest not derping. Survive the dance and the boss will die.
    I feel like we have the dance down pretty well until the first magnet comes out. Once that happens we start losing people. My hunch is that we need tanks and healers to be more vocal about which way they're going because it seems they're being separated by fire and getting out of range at that point. If we make it through the first magnet phase, we generally recover well but then lose all hope of killing him when we get the second magnet.

  6. #6
    If you have a solid melee DPS or two, give the Crawler Mines a try instead of the Laser Beam. Our group found that we are much better at changing targets to the Crawler Mines than we are running away from fire. Fire was killing people or distracting healers too much (so everyone was constantly low). As long as you have someone call out when to turn around and destroy the Crawler Mines you'll be good.

  7. #7
    There's a lot of room for improvement all around from these logs. Healer output is low and damage intake is far too high. No one should get hit by saw blades, and people are taking more than 1 million damage from them. You get a warning before they are thrown with more than enough time to get out of them. Comparing to my guild's first kill, Overload did 31 million damage to us, it was over 52 million for you guys. Tanks need to step it up big time. It was hitting people for over 500k at some points. Our warrior tank did 172k dps compared to yours at 97k on the attempt he didn't die, Prot pally 150k compared to 118k for yours (still looking at first kill two months ago).

    I'm a priest, so I'll comment there: healing CDs are sorely underused, they used inner focus a single time, and spirit shell was not effectively stacked the time they decided to cast it, AA only used half the total number. The priest rapture gains are really low, which shows they are not tracking it's 12 sec internal CD. Running with over 18k spirit is a good indication they do not understand gemming/reforging for 10 man disc, they should use ToF and not PI. Have them check out the guide at howtopriest to help them. There are also good weak auras strings there for tracking CDs.

    You should not be stacking on this fight. My group tanks the boss by the conveyor belt and he never moves, shredder gets tanked in the middle of the room. We always kill crawler mines if they are on belt, if not then magnet second. Everyone spreads out at range and makes an arc around the boss. If you get laser, you run towards the inactive conveyor and loop back. If you get targeted by saw blade, you run away from boss until it lands, then move in front of it. When magnet is out, healing CDs should be used, your paladin healer didn't cast Devo aura once, spirit shell is up once a minute and can be prestacked. DBM tells you what is on conveyor so you know it's coming. Everyone stays in their arc and no one gets out of range of anyone, fire and blades are always behind you and out of the way so you can ignore them.

  8. #8
    Since I'm a healer for our guild, and you mentioned you had a healing problem, I looked at your guys' healing. there's almost no way a disc priest who's practically only using atonement should beat the other two healers. Your priest should use spirit shell more. I believe it's up for almost every death from above, and using that would seriously prevent loads of damage.

    Your pally could easily get 15 or more holy shocks off during your longest fight (pull number 14. 5 min 5 sec). I lowballed and gave his holy shock a 6 second cd. He could have cast 51 holy shocks, but he only did 40. That extra holy power could boost his healing quite a lot.

    Your shaman on your longest fight didn't use healing tide once. ._. and he didn't have his water shield up for 70% of the fight.

    Solving these healing issues will allow your raid to make small mistakes without causing you guys to wipe. However, you really should NEVER get the shield on blackfuse. Your belt people absolutely have to get their add down, or else it makes the fight more painful than necessary. I would suggest sending two people up if one person isn't enough, but only if there's no way that one person can figure out how to do it on their own. We have an ele shaman and a surv hunter do ours and we've never had an issue.

    Blackhowl is getting out damaged by a prot pally, one of the weakest dps tanks currently. Your overall damage could stand to be a bit higher, though it isn't necessary to kill the boss. The main things to work on, imo, would be to set up a healing CD rotation for the death from above, and for the electromagnets. I'd suggest the shaman uses his HTT during the magnets, devo most of the deaths from above combined with spirit shell, ascendance, and spirit link totem. Another thing is to make sure your belt team kills their target every single time. These two things should make your pulls a lot smoother.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    judging 25man raiding by LFR standards saying it requires no coordination, is like saying 5mans require cheese sandwiches because i like turtles.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gewdgewd View Post
    I feel like we have the dance down pretty well until the first magnet comes out. Once that happens we start losing people. My hunch is that we need tanks and healers to be more vocal about which way they're going because it seems they're being separated by fire and getting out of range at that point. If we make it through the first magnet phase, we generally recover well but then lose all hope of killing him when we get the second magnet.
    You keep saying "first magnet". You shouldn't have more than 2. Well, shouldn't have more than 1, but I can see two with how low your DPS is.
    Your healing looks fine. Even better than when we do it, short of total heals. This is probably not a good thing, as you're taking *way* more damage, but your heals should be adequate if you can reduce the damage taken.
    Your tank damage is abysmal. Not damage taken, but damage done. Our tanks sit at around 200k dps on that fight, and yours are down at 100-130?
    Last edited by Annoying; 2013-11-27 at 10:24 PM.
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  10. #10
    we were having similar issues. Untill we just decided screw it and never let a magnet become active. As long as your raiders are good about positioning saw blades its not an issue.

  11. #11
    Your prot warrior is simply terrible. Out of 23 attempts he used Shield Block SEVEN! times. Granted he was using Shield Barrier quite a bit but in a fight like this SBlock is better. He also is just not using enough GCD's as well.

    I took our kill attempt of 2:48 and compared it to an attempt of 2:49 for you.
    Shield Slam 27:20
    And he had 10 Sword and Board procs compared to my 9. S+b procs come from devastate so despite me putting out 10 more than him as seen below he still got luckier than me though did less Shield Slams.

    Revenge 23:13
    He had 17 Hold the line procs compared to my 16 which is a glyph that resets your revenge on a parry. Despite this again I still managed 10 more Revenges.

    Devastate 38:28
    Filler spell that should be used when SS and revenge are on CD. Can proc S+B to make SS come off CD.

    He also used Shockwave while I used Dragon roar
    Shockwave = 360k damage
    Dragon Roar = 3.6m damage.

    Your DPS Warrior is useless as well. On that same 2:49 attempt(attempt 8) he used Bloodthirst 15 times when he could of used it over 40 times and it should be kept on CD(has a 4s CD).

    Tell these 2 to go learn how to play their class and role.
    Last edited by Khorm; 2013-11-28 at 12:44 AM.

  12. #12
    So some classes have been analyzed, some haven't been analyzed yet. Although I'm not an expert in analyzing World of Logs yet I can check the basic things for your mage dps.

    As far as I can see he's doing quite allright, his dps is on the right course. However he could increase his uptime of Living Bomb a bit more - currently ranging between 65% and 80%. 90% Is the number you want to aim for as mage (Yes he's doing more total damage with it on some tries but these taking 90-100 seconds longer then our kill time which means more damage). He should aim at 90% uptime as a minimum.

    For some reason his Frostbolt + Ice Lance damage is like half the damage of my logs from a kill (while our fight lasts shorter). Checking his armory his reforing is also decent (Damn he's lucky with the warforged chest & both trinket drops). However what he could consider is dropping a bit more haste (till the 13k cap for the GCD cap, Akrean's Frost Guide should give him the exact number) and forge a bit more into mastery. This is what I plan to do myself and Ill go for the more higher caps with some better based Haste/Mastery Gear & the trinket. His gemming is could be a bit different as well that way, I'm using 13 Reckless Vermillion Onyx vs. 4 Reckless Vermillion Onyx in his gear - he's gemming more for pure haste which shouldn't be needed seeing his haste level at this point & his current progression level.

    Don't forget tho that your mage is far from your worst dps, he's actually one of the better ones and these are just minor tips giving on my own point of view.
    I would say your warrior & Rogue need to step it up the most but I don't have to many knowledge of that class regarding logs and stats.

    My own logs where I compared it with: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...=12042&e=12268
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  13. #13
    So there seems to be a lot of overload damage going on so I'm just gonna ask the obvious
    Do tanks know to tank the add in the sawblades or fire to kill it quicker?

    Also if you are having problems with the magnet have you tried killing that instead? Our guild does magnet>mines for the kill order which means we dont have to worry about the magnet at all. What we do is get 2-3 sawblades very close together at a certain point before the 1st shredder comes out which makes the tanks job a lot easier.

  14. #14
    warrior shouldn't die. Shield barrier the 3rd debuff. Tanks should also just save heavy hitting GCDs for the shredder and especially for when it lands after Death from Above. Dragon Roar + Shield Slam w/ heavy repercussions should finish anything.
    Only make passive aggressive posts when it doesn't make you look like a dumbass.

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