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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by LegendsnDreamz View Post
    Huh, all those things coming about AFTER that ONE guy was removed. Funny....maybe just one guy isn't responsible.

    btw, this happens all the time, remove random scapegoat or not so random in your scenario. Then sprinkle on top requests to make it better. PR 101.
    This is what denial looks like. I list facts to back my claims, there was a shift in teams with D3 too but WoW had one too.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Peso View Post
    This is what denial looks like. I list facts to back my claims, there was a shift in teams with D3 too but WoW had one too.
    Here let me take YOUR shovel away. First look up denial. Second read again my post you first responded to. Third follow that conversation. Lastly your scenario showcased 2 different job titles for 2 different games designed to illustrate how after the removal of one person supposedly made the game better. So in theory WoW should be.

    Problems, Those facts are Promises, the expansion has yet to be released or even in beta. Also my point was to make fun of all those who think one person is responsible for an entire team of designers. You only helped my point, by showing that D3 is making strides with its remaining team to improve the game.

    Now with WoW you will see the vast sea of issues won't be resolved by one individual leaving.

    Personally, I wish nothing but the best for GC, he surely got a bad rap as he was pretty much the face of WoW. However even if he was solely responsible for the game, He still was not at the top of the ladder, like your Jay example is. So if you want a single scapegoat, perhaps you should do a little digging to see where the head of the snake lies.
    Aku, Soku, Zan

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    The downside is that before Ghostcrawler getting more say, the game was an imbalanced mess. Part of the homogenization of classes was due to the 10m raid size being made a competitive option where you had to be able to bring whatever was available so more was available to each individual class.

    The old WoW team, the heads of the department before Ghostcrawler was added to the team, were known to not communicate with players at all except to tell hybrids to fuck off and heal or give pures the finger if they wanted more than one playable DPS spec. They were heavily anti convenience and felt like they were trying to make an Everquest clone.

    People look back on the days of vanilla and BC and praise them but then completely ignore specs like Shadow being trash in vanilla and a mana battery in BC, Balance being near unplayable until 3.0, pures running around with only one viable spec and two dumpster specs, etc. Ghostcrawler was the main proponent of class balance and gameplay conveniences and while the second part may have gone a bit too far, he did a lot of good for the game. Homogenization was a side effect of the demand for 10m to be a competitive gameplay setting. With 20m mythic being the only "heroic" endgame progression size, they can strip down the classes a bit and add a bit more uniqueness. They've used the example of Paladins not needing an interrupt which brings the control aspect back to Rogues.=, Warriors can go back to being the masters of cleaving, Hunters not needing full buff coverage, etc.
    You make some good points but at the same time you have to consider the atmosphere...in vanilla wow was brand new so of course there wasn't going to be 3 balanced specs for each class. And the game still went by the healing classes should heal, tanks should tank, etc. mentality so balancing all specs was not a priority by any means. Likewise in TBC there were specs good for raiding, some good for pvp, few that were just bad period but then again there wasn't that huge an outcry for making a class's 3rd spec completely viable like nowadays. Some might say it was better when classes were more specialized and that homogeny just brought around a different kind of headache.

    Personally I dont think its possible to balance 30+ specs by any means and def think GC's attempt at widespread class balance was his biggest failure. At least back in the day you knew what your role was depending on the class you picked and stuck to it. Now everyone wants to be top dps and top heals no matter what their class. And you still have specs like disc priest, aff/demo locks that are not just slightly overpowered but massively OP and have been basically the whole expansion.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    The downside is that before Ghostcrawler getting more say, the game was an imbalanced mess. Part of the homogenization of classes was due to the 10m raid size being made a competitive option where you had to be able to bring whatever was available so more was available to each individual class.

    The old WoW team, the heads of the department before Ghostcrawler was added to the team, were known to not communicate with players at all except to tell hybrids to fuck off and heal or give pures the finger if they wanted more than one playable DPS spec. They were heavily anti convenience and felt like they were trying to make an Everquest clone.

    People look back on the days of vanilla and BC and praise them but then completely ignore specs like Shadow being trash in vanilla and a mana battery in BC, Balance being near unplayable until 3.0, pures running around with only one viable spec and two dumpster specs, etc. Ghostcrawler was the main proponent of class balance and gameplay conveniences and while the second part may have gone a bit too far, he did a lot of good for the game. Homogenization was a side effect of the demand for 10m to be a competitive gameplay setting. With 20m mythic being the only "heroic" endgame progression size, they can strip down the classes a bit and add a bit more uniqueness. They've used the example of Paladins not needing an interrupt which brings the control aspect back to Rogues.=, Warriors can go back to being the masters of cleaving, Hunters not needing full buff coverage, etc.
    Aka his mistake was listening to the playerbase TOO MUCH. What I am 100% certain of is that, including myself, most people have no fucking clue on how to design a game yet think they know better lol.

  5. #725
    Now only if metzen and kosak will leave , along with bashiok and netharea

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by LegendsnDreamz View Post
    Here let me take YOUR shovel away. First look up denial. Second read again my post you first responded to. Third follow that conversation. Lastly your scenario showcased 2 different job titles for 2 different games designed to illustrate how after the removal of one person supposedly made the game better. So in theory WoW should be.

    Problems, Those facts are Promises, the expansion has yet to be released or even in beta. Also my point was to make fun of all those who think one person is responsible for an entire team of designers. You only helped my point, by showing that D3 is making strides with its remaining team to improve the game.

    Now with WoW you will see the vast sea of issues won't be resolved by one individual leaving.

    Personally, I wish nothing but the best for GC, he surely got a bad rap as he was pretty much the face of WoW. However even if he was solely responsible for the game, He still was not at the top of the ladder, like your Jay example is. So if you want a single scapegoat, perhaps you should do a little digging to see where the head of the snake lies.
    People get promoted in the industry over time. Game Director and Lead System Designer are the most important roles behind a team. They work on Gameplay, System, UI among other things not just balance. What's left Art / Lore / Quest?

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Peso View Post
    People get promoted in the industry over time. Game Director and Lead System Designer are the most important roles behind a team. They work on Gameplay, System, UI among other things not just balance. What's left Art / Lore / Quest?
    I see you found your shovel again. Well if you are so determined to be that foolish, go on.

    Edit: Since you want to use that shovel to dig your hole instead of research, I'll give you a freebie.

    Jay Wilson was the Game Director for D3
    Tom Chilton Game Director for WoW

    Those are the comparable people for YOUR scenario.

    Greg Street Lead Systems For WoW. Important yes, upper hierarchy...sure. solely responsible for a games success or failure, not by a long shot.
    Last edited by LegendsnDreamz; 2013-11-29 at 03:08 AM.
    Aku, Soku, Zan

  8. #728
    I would like to see a team function without a Lead System Designer and Game Director. It would be an interesting experiment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LegendsnDreamz View Post
    I see you found your shovel again. Well if you are so determined to be that foolish, go on.

    Edit: Since you want to use that shovel to dig your hole instead of research, I'll give you a freebie.

    Jay Wilson was the Game Director for D3
    Tom Chilton Game Director for WoW

    Those are the comparable people for YOUR scenario.

    Greg Street Lead Systems For WoW. Important yes, upper hierarchy...sure. solely responsible for a games success or failure, not by a long shot.
    Coming from the guy who thinks the lead system architect is a scapegoat. I do not fall for such ignorance sorry.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Peso View Post
    I would like to see a team function without a Lead System Designer and Game Director. It would be an interesting experiment.

    - - - Updated - - -




    Coming from the guy who thinks the lead system architect is a scapegoat. I do not fall for such ignorance sorry.
    So now you think that position will remain vacant. Well enjoy that hole of yours.

    BTW, I just put a label to what you called him, I'm not the one making him into a scapegoat. You might want to look that one up too. Better yet pick up a dictionary all together.
    Last edited by LegendsnDreamz; 2013-11-29 at 03:19 AM.
    Aku, Soku, Zan

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by LegendsnDreamz View Post
    So now you think that position will remain vacant. Well enjoy that hole of yours.

    BTW, I just put a label to what you called him, I'm not the one making him into a scapegoat. You might want to look that one up too. Better yet pick up a dictionary all together.
    I'm putting emphasis on the fact that he has a say to what happens with the game.

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch the Conqueror View Post
    ^ This so much.

    WoW A-Team's most notable creations: Naxxramas, Black Temple, Sunwell Plateau, Ulduar
    WoW B-Team's most notable creations: Trial of the Crusader, Dragon Soul

    Tigole basically made Vanilla, TBC and the good half of WotLK.
    Ghostcrawler made ... the bad half of WotLK, Cataclysm (ouch!) and the very questionable Mists of Pandaria.

    I'm sorry but Tigole's work is just much higher quality.
    Ghostcrawler didn't make any of those though. Ghostcrawler was just another name in the list that had his own responsibilities. Ghostcrawler was simply the first of the developers to try to have active communication, and maintain it, with the community and led to him getting a lot of blame for shit he wasn't even in charge of. Because he was the blue at the forefront of community discussion, people assumed he had more power than he really did.

    Dungeons and raids for example were the responsibility of J. Allen Brack's guys since 2005 and Ion Hazzikostas who was added to the team in Wrath, now becoming the team lead with Brack moving on to other things.

    If people insist on blaming someone for the overall direction, then they need to put the blame on Tom Chilton who's the lead game designer for WoW or Rob Pardo who is the VP of Blizzard Game Design.

    Ghostcrawler's job was more to do with convenience factors such as dungeon finder and overall class balance. Even PvP had has its own design team since Wrath that primarily answered to Kalgan (Chilton) and now Hollinka. Things like garrisons, pet battles, etc fall under Mumper (Cory Stockton.) It doesn't stop people from blaming Ghostcrawler though for everything they don't like.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2013-11-29 at 03:35 AM.
    FC: 3067-6604-6289. Steel Safari - Skarmory - Klefki - Ferrorseed

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by LegendsnDreamz View Post
    So if you want a single scapegoat, perhaps you should do a little digging to see where the head of the snake lies.
    1234everybodyscarpethatgoat.

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Peso View Post
    I'm putting emphasis on the fact that he has a say to what happens with the game.
    No, you and your ilk were pointing out how GC SOLELY made WoW a bad game (subjective point). I pointed out how terribly flawed this thinking was and noted to its comical effect. You are right about how his position gave him SOME say. As did many people on that team does, and his successor will. The guy that green lights everything, well that is Tom Chilton. He would be a far better choice to a scapegoat then GC.

    I wouldn't advise using scapegoats however, they are nothing but a thin smokescreen any intelligent person worth their salt would see past.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Peso View Post
    1234everybodyscarpethatgoat.
    Context....have you taken an English class?
    Last edited by LegendsnDreamz; 2013-11-29 at 03:39 AM.
    Aku, Soku, Zan

  14. #734
    Already stated GC left because no flying in WoD.
    http://i5.minus.com/iT9gBOC94PbmU.jpg
    NON SINE DIIS ANIMOSUS INFANS
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Accessibility, ownership, availability; these are all essentially the same thing.

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by LegendsnDreamz View Post
    No, you and your ilk were pointing out how GC SOLELY made WoW a bad game (subjective point). I pointed out how terribly flawed this thinking was and noted to its comical effect. You are right about how his position gave him SOME say. As did many people on that team does, and his successor will. The guy that green lights everything, well that is Tom Chilton. He would be a far better choice to a scapegoat then GC.

    I wouldn't advice using scapegoats however, they are nothing but a thin smokescreen any intelligent person worth their salt would see past.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Context....have you taken an English class?
    If you watch any of Tigole's interviews something clicks and people just understand where he's coming from and talking about when it comes to WoW (given that the person likes progression and a sense of point in the game). He made sense from a players perspective.

    For some reason nobody sees that since J. left everything is right where it should be for Diablo. Tigole left and instantly we had a sudden shift. More importantly a LSD is more important then a GD since he pulls the strings in terms of gameplay and then the GD just approves. J. didn't approve of anything like ladders, better loot (given AH circumstances) etc..

    The guy's a genius and I'm glad he's VP and getting paid well. Good guy. True to the players game play by a player himself.
    Last edited by Peso; 2013-11-29 at 03:52 AM.

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by Schroedinger View Post
    Putting someone worse than Ghostcrawler in charge of things, does not make Ghostcrawler better. He will be just a lesser evil, but still evil.

    He was bad for the game and he is (finally) gone, the community should hope for someone better, an actual designer, who spend his time designing not tweeting and talking crap on forums.
    I wonder if people will ever take responsibility and realize that they are really bad and want someone to blame for their low IQ. You realize that all of the dev's are hardcore raider's and are unhappy with the retard level Blizzard is taking so mentally slow people can feel not as dumb.

    Ok guys, lets call Flex mode Normal mode so people can clear "Normals," then let's take Normal mode and call it "Heroics" so people will not feel as bad because they cant even clear Normals. Then for the people with synapse firing in their brain, we can take actual heroic mode and call it Mythic. Hmmm that does make the game really faceroll but we have some real idiots that play so lets take out hit, expertise, dodge and parry, that should at least let them clear flex, i mean normal modes.

    So the better way that you are referring to is the biggest dumbing down of any game ever made. People have to be absolutely ignorant to not see that.

    Infracted for this and previous posts in this thread. A bit more respect and civility in the future please. [ML]
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-11-29 at 05:04 AM.

  17. #737
    Although I respect GC for his tenacity and commitment I can honestly say this is a good riddance.

    Hopefully you get someone like Bashikins or Bashikins himself to take over. Y,know someone who will bend bad players over a pinball table and insert their authority where it rightfully belongs.

    Goodbye 'balance', goodbye whining, goodbye kowtowing to the worst aspect of the community, which is pvp.

  18. #738
    I will miss you GC!!!

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaexion Ramza Beoulve View Post
    Although I respect GC for his tenacity and commitment I can honestly say this is a good riddance.

    Hopefully you get someone like Bashikins or Bashikins himself to take over. Y,know someone who will bend bad players over a pinball table and insert their authority where it rightfully belongs.

    Goodbye 'balance', goodbye whining, goodbye kowtowing to the worst aspect of the community, which is pvp.
    I talked to GC at the Hilton bar at Blizzcon, me and MUfusa ( if you know who he is) asked Greg why the hell would they dumb the game down even more taking out hit and the other stats. He smiled and said, bads and wrath babies. The other dev's who were there, who we bought 2 rounds for btw lol, said they can't make content challenging like it used to be because the player base is far too bad and they would just have to nerf it anyway.

    It was my first blizzcon but worth it to hear the honest opinions they can give face to face. As far as bending bad's over, they are going the opposite way which a lot of people weren't happy with, making the game even more faceroll.

  20. #740
    Quote Originally Posted by Peso View Post
    If you watch any of Tigole's interviews something clicks and people just understand where he's coming from and talking about when it comes to WoW (given that the person likes progression and a sense of point in the game). He made sense from a players perspective.

    For some reason nobody sees that since J. left everything is right where it should be for Diablo. Tigole left and instantly we had a sudden shift.
    Jefferey Kaplan (Tigole) was Game Director. Again Tom Chilton Game Director (Tigole's successor) You really have a difficult time understanding who has what powers. Far as Tigole goes, well he was in charge during a different time, if he came back now and did what he did then, I assure you it would not make this game for the better. There are to many variables in play now, and even if you had the exact team of whatever golden age of WoW you want to prop up. There is nothing that they could do to raise subs to the glory days of 12 million.
    Last edited by LegendsnDreamz; 2013-11-29 at 03:57 AM.
    Aku, Soku, Zan

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