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  1. #1

    Is a spec a commitment? Should it be?

    Pretty much the title. We get a lot of messages about how we should bring the Feral Druid, rather than just a Druid, that specs should feel distinct enough that you feel 'your guy' is a Demonology Warlock rather than just a Warlock. That specs should be close enough under most circumstances that you don't feel compelled to swap spec, but have strengths to shine occasionally. It's the fall back argument against Tri-Spec and for differing gear sets per-role and spec. It's even been suggested more than once that Dual Spec itself fixes a problem that no longer exists thanks to tanking and healing changes that make them pretty viable for questing.

    However, with the new gearing system the objective seems to be to make it easier than ever before to swap specs and roles, removing the barrier to encourage a focus on a spec or role so your guy is more than just 'A Paladin'. It seems to fly in the face of all that discussion that's gone before.

    I still feel like a specialisation should be a commitment; barriers need to exist to allow players to focus rather than feel an expectation of knowing all of the specs. It is afterall, an RPG where your choices in specialisation and talents are supposed to reflect something within your character's character, something that defines them. Too much ease and convenience hurts that, and we've seen countless arguments on how ease and convenience hurt immersion and gameplay itself.

  2. #2
    I think this is a great topic!!!!!!!!!!

    I read that players are happy that they can swap talents every fight and I end up thinking: if it is a talent, how come one can change it based on fights?
    That is not the definition of talent at all.

    We should choose a talent tree and out talents... then we're stuck with it.
    If there are issues, we have to learn to deal with them... I thought that was part of the game? Using one's strength and dealing with weaknesses.

    I mean:
    If talents can be changed on the fly, as needed, why have players choose one and not all them at once? What's the use of having to choose 1 talent and dropping 2, when it can be easily changed/reverted when needed, based on different bosses in 1 and the same raid?????

    This makes the talent system useless, in my opinion!
    What will the life-improvement feature be? Don't choose, take 'm all at the same time?

    So I believe not only spec but also talents must be a commitment.
    If people wants to change it, it can be done once at the start of a new expansion....

  3. #3
    Pit Lord Forgettable's Avatar
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    As a raider, you should know and be proficient in at least 2 of the specs your class can play. To do otherwise is gimping the raid.
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    If Forgettable knew what he was doing with his keyboard, I would totally kick his ass in dps!
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  4. #4
    It can be, it does not "need" to be. I for example, only tank and have been only tanking for nine+ years. However, on some fights an extra healer or an extra dps is a benefit so having people who can switch between them is nice. For example, a third tank on the shaman bosses in SoO can be a less chaotic method of defeating them.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Antinoos View Post
    Also, tanks HAVE to know a dps spec because at some fights, they 'll be asked to dps.
    LIES! Frankly I do more damage in Bear form then in Cat. But that's just me.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

  6. #6
    High Overlord
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    Well, at least in Healer Priest's case, you HAVE to know both holy and discipline. There will be a lot of times that you 'll need to swap.
    Also, tanks HAVE to know a dps spec because at some fights, they 'll be asked to dps.

    But anyway, in general, knowing/playing only one spec is boring...

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Antinoos View Post
    Well, at least in Healer Priest's case, you HAVE to know both holy and discipline. There will be a lot of times that you 'll need to swap.
    Also, tanks HAVE to know a dps spec because at some fights, they 'll be asked to dps.

    But anyway, in general, knowing/playing only one spec is boring...
    Their point so much isn't that you have to only play one spec but that picking a spec should feel like a bigger deal than it currently is. With it being so stupidly easy to change specs and the way classes are currently designed, being a certain spec doesn't really have meaning unless you're a Druid who get the fun visuals to go with it.

    Being a Survivalist or Beast Master or Marksman doesn't mean anything when I can swap specs at the drop of a hat and the playstyle all being basically identical.
    FC: 3067-6604-6289. Steel Safari - Skarmory - Klefki - Ferrorseed

  8. #8
    I think the current system sets an expectation that raiders who want to be competitive (even within their own guild) should know multiple roles/specs. Whether this is good design or not is really a personal preference and I dislike it, but that's me!

  9. #9
    Not sure, my brother was a tank in a 25 man guild during Wotlk and he normally went dps on fights that didnt need three tanks(mainly because he had the best dps set out of the tanks and could compete near the top of the dps charts). Of course before dual specs this meant porting back to SW and respecing, and then getting summoned back. Then doing it again a little while later to go back to tank for the next boss. He was extremely happy to get dual specs with the Ulduar patch.

    For myself I was playing holy pally at the time so it was really nice to be able to switch to ret for dailies.

  10. #10
    I think the whole "more than just <name of the class>" argument is lot of bull. Im sorry but I just cant for the love of me recall when was the last time playerbase collectively gived a damn on what specc you play outside of neccesity needed for the raid.

    Back in TBC, if you were a priest who didnt picked shadow spec you didnt had much of a raid spot compared to someone who was a shadow priest. Even then nobody really payed special emphasis on how you were THE SHADOWY <fake gasp> priest. Im sorry nobody really cared outside of that mana battery.

    Fastfoward today and blizz's "choice should be meaningful" excuse turned into "We want you to be more than just a <name of class>".

    The entire argument is bollocks at this point. Blizzard wants to "bring the player, not the class" but at the same time they want to "make all specc unique" while also make raid encounters "diverse in mechanics but at the same time viable for both melee/ranged classes". I'm sorry but am I the only one here who notices the impossibility of those goal's coexistance? It's like blizzard was a human who wishes to look with his both eyeballs left, right and behind at the same time.

    The issue this thread raises is just one of those remnant dreams.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ineluki View Post
    Not sure, my brother was a tank in a 25 man guild during Wotlk and he normally went dps on fights that didnt need three tanks(mainly because he had the best dps set out of the tanks and could compete near the top of the dps charts). Of course before dual specs this meant porting back to SW and respecing, and then getting summoned back. Then doing it again a little while later to go back to tank for the next boss. He was extremely happy to get dual specs with the Ulduar patch.

    For myself I was playing holy pally at the time so it was really nice to be able to switch to ret for dailies.
    I actually liked the way they handled the soloing aspect in Final Fantasy XIV where tanks and healers had an ability they could pick up to give them more damage while soloing that had no bearing on their role's performance in groups, sort of like the Smite Chakra. That way, you could continue being say a White Mage outside of a group setting and not be hindered.
    FC: 3067-6604-6289. Steel Safari - Skarmory - Klefki - Ferrorseed

  12. #12
    I think specs should play distinctively. For example I play a Warrior, so Arms and Fury should feel different. As it is they're still a bit too overly similar, although they do have some differences.

    But I like the direction MOP went with being able to change talents on the fly. You're still restricted in the sense that you can't change mid fight, but it allows us more customization and versatility and ultimately forces us to be better players by learning all of our abilities(instead of pidgeonholing us into one style of play).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    I think this is a great topic!!!!!!!!!!

    I read that players are happy that they can swap talents every fight and I end up thinking: if it is a talent, how come one can change it based on fights?
    That is not the definition of talent at all.

    We should choose a talent tree and out talents... then we're stuck with it.
    If there are issues, we have to learn to deal with them... I thought that was part of the game? Using one's strength and dealing with weaknesses.

    I mean:
    If talents can be changed on the fly, as needed, why have players choose one and not all them at once? What's the use of having to choose 1 talent and dropping 2, when it can be easily changed/reverted when needed, based on different bosses in 1 and the same raid?????

    This makes the talent system useless, in my opinion!
    What will the life-improvement feature be? Don't choose, take 'm all at the same time?

    So I believe not only spec but also talents must be a commitment.
    If people wants to change it, it can be done once at the start of a new expansion....
    As long as the community is so pig-headed and arrogant about the "right" choices, then that sort of commitment will never work.
    People will simply be excluded because they made a bad choice they can't fix.

    We have always had the ability to go visit the trainer to change talents/respec, and some people were that determined to do that to aid progression.
    Therefore you can't really complain about what is simply a more convenient version of what was never a true commitment in the first place.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-11-29 at 06:03 PM.
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  14. #14
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    Being a Survivalist or Beast Master or Marksman doesn't mean anything when I can swap specs at the drop of a hat and the playstyle all being basically identical.
    Well, your oppinion is shaped like this because you play a hunter. Hunters don't have specs essentially...

  15. #15
    Spec should be a commitment and not something that you change on the fly, I hate the idea of switching between specs depending on what boss you're encountering. If both specs are within the same role, it shouldn't be needed.

    Personally I feel only hybrid classes should have dual spec, the way talents work today you can't really argue that you need a PvE spec and a PvP spec, assuming it's the same specialization.

  16. #16
    Lets look at this in the reverse. I would say that as a death knight I am the master of unholy, frost, and blood. Each take a different discipline and I can only use one of these skill sets at a time but its all something I can do as a death knight, just like my talents. Obviously there are balance limitations which is why we cant do every spec and every talent at one time, but I like the idea that I can do what ever I please because of my class.

  17. #17
    I dont think you should be stuck with your speccs and talents, but i really do think the speccs should be more defined and apart from eachother, and to change specc should be a hassle, not something you can do in the middle of the raid.
    If you're really fucked, sure you can teleport to a city and change the talents around, but it would have an impact on your raid and be an active choice from both you and your raidleader.

    As it is right now, i dont even know why those Tomes are in the game, when you could just aswell just have talents being able to be changed outside of combat at all times.

  18. #18
    Epic! Felarion's Avatar
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    Ideally there shouldn't be spec commitment. However for hybrid is kind of hard. For me personally melle dps and tanking is fine as a paladin, but healing, never ever.

  19. #19
    Well, any competent raider will be expected to play at least two different roles for hybrids and all three dps specs in case of a pure.

    I do not believe a spec should be a commitment. I want to be able to play anything my class can do without having to jump through artificial hoops.

    As it is right now, i dont even know why those Tomes are in the game, when you could just aswell just have talents being able to be changed outside of combat at all times.
    Gold sink ;-)

  20. #20
    I don't think a spec should or needs to be a commitment in the sense that there should be a large barrier to spec-swapping for a hybrid class. Specs are already not a commitment for mages, warlocks, rogues, and hunters, outside of some min/making of secondary stats.

    Specs can be a commitment in the sense that a player can really like a certain spec, and never decide to use the others.

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