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  1. #1

    Healers are the key to progression

    Does anyone agree that healers have the most important role in raiding? My 25 man guild is 10/14H at the moment and we have better DPS then the realm 1st guild who are at 13/14H. I think the fact that they have much better healers is the reason. DPS has never been a problem in our raid since TOT, it's always been people dying here and there (sometimes it's the DPSer fault but I believe our healers should take the most responsibility usually). If you got a few bad DPS, it's alright because the stronger DPS will carry them, or when everyone gears up, theres pretty much no pressure on DPS. Say you got 5-6 healers vs 16-17 DPS in a raid, losing one of them is gonna have a much bigger impact than losing one DPS.

  2. #2
    "Better DPS" based on the damage they do? There is so much more to being a good player or DPS then the damage you do.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    "Better DPS" based on the damage they do? There is so much more to being a good player or DPS then the damage you do.
    Like what? Staying alive, that's really tough. Don't stand in bad shit.

  4. #4
    There's a pretty good possibility that their groups dps is lower because they also put an emphasis on survivability. You are part of a team, you do what it takes to win, not what it takes to top meters.

  5. #5
    Legendary! Blueobelisk's Avatar
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    Tanks trump all. Sort of.

    Id say it's based on encounter. You should say which realm you're on so I can stalk your logs and see exactly how much better your DPS is than the other raid and how accurately you're judging it.

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ganush View Post
    There's a pretty good possibility that their groups dps is lower because they also put an emphasis on survivability. You are part of a team, you do what it takes to win, not what it takes to top meters.
    What this guy said. (Applicable to all roles and classes)

  7. #7
    Legendary! Blueobelisk's Avatar
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    I stalked your post history and you said a Taiwanese server. Ehhhh. Need more info,

    Zzz looking for graphic artist, PM me for details on project.

  8. #8
    Dreadlord Csnyder's Avatar
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    tanks then healers then good dps, not numbers wise but dps who are alive at the end of the fight, yes dps can be carried but so can healers
    dps numbers dont matter as much anymore, the raids have been so mechanical heavy lately its aobut staying alive and doing more damage by the end of the fight

  9. #9
    I think the OP didn't even mention the most important role for raids... dem Tanks. Don't fights tend to end pretty quick if the tnak can't get the position right and they're normally the only people who can withstand a few seconds of face time with Mr. BigStuff

  10. #10
    Dreadlord Csnyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willas View Post
    Like what? Staying alive, that's really tough. Don't stand in bad shit.
    its not just that, there is using defensive cooldowns too, there is a thing called raid wide damage, you dont have to be standing in it to get hit
    Last edited by Csnyder; 2013-11-28 at 05:37 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mstg View Post
    DPS has never been a problem in our raid since TOT, it's always been people dying here and there (sometimes it's the DPSer fault but I believe our healers should take the most responsibility usually).
    Really the only time that someone dying is a healers fault is when that person gets slowly ticked down by raid damage. If it's a large damage hit that's avoidable, don't get hit by it, if it's not avoidable, hit a personal CD.

    Eat anima font to the face and die to the anima dot after? dpser's fault for getting hit with anima font.

    Die over 20 seconds to the pheramone damage from massive mantid crates on spoils? Healers fault for not healing the person taking unavoidable damage.

    Most of the things in SoO that will kill a dps are in the hands of the dps. Don't stand in stupid, especially during progression because healers are already spread thin due to having low gear, and needing to put out lots of healing because the fight is lasting so long due to it being progression.

    I don't think there's any role that's "key" to progression. If your tanks suck and get one shot, you don't kill the boss. If your dps suck and don't meet enrage, you don't kill the boss. If your healers suck and half the raid dies to unavoidable damage, you don't kill the boss. Each role has to work together in order to kill it, and if there's two guilds like the ones you're referencing that are almost the same, the difference is likely not that one guild has a role better than the other, but that the one guild is just better overall than the other.

    And all the while that you think "well without healers healing us, we'd be dead". Well, without dps doing all the mechanics like killing adds, soaking AoEs, etc, you'd all be dead. If the tanks don't tank swap and they both die eventually, mr big boss is gunna ping pong around the room one shotting you all.

    That and lower dps =/= worse at dps.
    Last edited by britishbubba; 2013-11-28 at 05:39 AM.

  12. #12
    I've always thought this. I've only ever mained a mage for progression, but i used to heal in my old guilds alt progression groups and it gave me a view of how much harder it is to deal with progression when everyone is in blues. Fights last longer... everyone takes a bit more damage... tanks usually get smashed for a bit. I've always blamed healers as a last resort in new content, that goes without saying if its obviously the healers fault i dont go looking to blame other people

  13. #13
    We got 3 tanks and the MT and ST do well, the 3rd tank is a little undergeared and his skills got room for improvement.

  14. #14
    Just depends on the fight. Example...Elegon. Though tough to heal, you weren't gonna progress past this boss unless you had the dps. Spirit kings? Different. You weren't gonna progress past this boss...on heroic I mean, unless you have people doing what needs done. No dps or heals will save you here. Just a dumb overall topic. Its situational.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Willas View Post
    Like what? Staying alive, that's really tough. Don't stand in bad shit.
    Obviously. The fact is that some players take more avoidable damage than others. There is also far more players can do to make things go more smoothly and easier on healers than just not standing in bad shit too. Some mechanics require you to stand in bad shit for the good of the team... Aim on paragons for example.

    Timely use of personal damage reduction cooldowns is 1 example of something a good player will use while another player might just spam as much dps as they can.

    It depends on the fight. Some fights high dps is far more important than healing... But overall I think good healers have the potential to elevate a guilds progression more than anything else.
    Last edited by Paulosio; 2013-11-28 at 05:49 AM.

  16. #16
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    "Better DPS" based on the damage they do? There is so much more to being a good player or DPS then the damage you do.
    "Good player?" Maybe. I mean, you gotta be "nice" to be a good player.

    But "good DPS" usually goes along with doing shit right to begin with, like not standing in the bad stuff. That stuff gets infused into you as you progress in the game and get better. Then you get measured by how much DPS you can do.

    Plus, live people, in general, do better DPS than dead people, so...
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  17. #17
    At the high end everyone needs to bring their A game. At the low end, excellent healing can compensate for crappy tanking, but great tanking and smart dps can compensate for suck healing. If every one is just average you will probably do fine. If we are talking about which I would rather have, then yeah an awesome healing team can compensate for a lot of screw ups. But really if your tank is terribad you aren't going to make any progress.

  18. #18
    I'd say yes. In challenging content, healers are probably the most important piece of the puzzle, as exceptional play on their part can at least partially make up for lackluster play on the part of others more than any other role can.

    This becomes less apparent as groups start to outgear encounters, of course.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  19. #19
    Pandaren Monk
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    Um it depends.

    When we did blackfuse the most important roles were the DPS on the assembly line and the tanks doing things right. Mind you tank survival is part of the healers job as well, but I think you understand where I'm coming from.

    Felt the same way with paragons. Much more margin for error than blackfuse (I'm talking both on heroic) but everybody was fairly important. Healers can't really prevent dumb on that fight from happening because standing in puddles, not lining up for aim, standing in green lines or being positioned wrong is pretty much on the entire raid.

    Largely it depends on the encounter and I wouldn't give a clear answer either way. On one hand excellent DPS allows you to have more healers than normal, on the other hand having excellent healers allows you to drop one and bring more DPS.

    I am largely a tank and rarely have to DPS. Honestly I find tanking to be the least stressful role, and that's why I throw raid leader on my plate as well because I find it the easiest role to lead from. Again, it's largely based on encounter and what responsibilities you throw out on raiders. Will of the emperor is a good example of a fight where tanks are probably the most important piece.

    Basically it differs. If I had to choose a single role it would be healer/dps and then tanks.

  20. #20
    No, almost every fight depends mostly on how excellent your dps are, healers are required to just not be gutter trash, same for tanks.

    A guild with the best dps in the world, good healers and average tanks will clear SoO heroic long before any other skill combination for the 3 roles.

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