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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord slime's Avatar
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    I agree with you OP.

  2. #42
    70% of the time when a tank dies it's his own fault.
    80% of the time when a dps dies it's his own fault.

    Good healers will cover up some of these fails, but if you have good tanks and dps, you won't need exceptional healers most of the time.

  3. #43
    Healers are important - nothing about that.
    The key is the DPS - when shit dies fast you help healers a lot more than the best heal could compensate with skill. In cases of wipe/no wipe its allways the DPS who makes the key factor (beating enrage, skipping mechanics, less AoE to raid). Great DPS helps with raid by having the right surv CD at the good time (accident, predicted DMG minigation).
    Simple fact that 17 people makes bigger impact than 6 when many classes keep their surv CDs in DPS spec (shaman totem, tranqil, HP shout).
    If your healers cant keep up even if your DPS is doing absolute best for survival you have healer problem.

    and for that that your DPS is better than theirs... I too have several DPS ranking in 10-50 WoL better than best of my server, but they are like 2-4 on fight. I seriously doubt that all your DPS rooster is better than the best of your server.

  4. #44
    progress pov.

    tanks just tank stuff.
    healers just keep the group alive.
    its the dps who has to beat enrage timers with minimal gear.
    avoiding stuff is mandatory.
    =dps most important in any good raid.


    if you talk about normal raiding everyone is overgearing the current boss by so far, thats its just the players and not the role.

  5. #45
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    What if your DPS are just tunnelers who have no problems pulling high numbers but take a lot of unnecessary damage or can't handle mechanics correctly?

  6. #46
    If you look at the top guilds like Method and Blood Legion, they have 1-2 mediocre DPS too who seem to get carried most of the time. But you sure as hell wont see a bad healer in there. Got a kick ass healer? Solo heal H Garrosh like Paragon.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mstg View Post
    Does anyone agree that healers have the most important role in raiding? My 25 man guild is 10/14H at the moment and we have better DPS then the realm 1st guild who are at 13/14H. I think the fact that they have much better healers is the reason. DPS has never been a problem in our raid since TOT, it's always been people dying here and there (sometimes it's the DPSer fault but I believe our healers should take the most responsibility usually). If you got a few bad DPS, it's alright because the stronger DPS will carry them, or when everyone gears up, theres pretty much no pressure on DPS. Say you got 5-6 healers vs 16-17 DPS in a raid, losing one of them is gonna have a much bigger impact than losing one DPS.
    bt better dps you probably mean higher...

    Whats their dmg taken? My opinion on better dps is taking low amounts of avoidable dmg whilst pulling high numbers and dpsing the right target.

    Healers are important, but they cant outheal stupidity.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    What if your DPS are just tunnelers who have no problems pulling high numbers but take a lot of unnecessary damage or can't handle mechanics correctly?
    OMG dont remind me of this. Please. It was for the longest time killing us on Nour in SoO because we were like 5% off from berserk. We couldn't figure out why until we looked at our resident tunneler. She was completely and udderly ignoring all of the orbs! So she was gimping us and costing us the kill for a good hour before we noticed that she couldnt be bothered to click the orb.

    That same dps, rewind to ToT. Oh My God. Anytime she got the red beam on Durumu, I just instantly started heading towards the pools to die. Literally every F#*&%ing time she got the red beam, she wouldn't move. We would then yell at her. She would move then, enough to blow us up to death. Then we would yell at her to stop. She would stop, and not go again until we finally yelled at her to move again, then it was a repeat of blowing us up. A dps who tunnels has the ability to easily kill the raid multiple times in SoO. Ugh, Siegecrafter helped. We say mines, she runs right to em. bad thing is, shes the target of one!

    Does anyone agree that healers have the most important role in raiding? My 25 man guild is 10/14H at the moment and we have better DPS then the realm 1st guild who are at 13/14H. I think the fact that they have much better healers is the reason. DPS has never been a problem in our raid since TOT, it's always been people dying here and there (sometimes it's the DPSer fault but I believe our healers should take the most responsibility usually). If you got a few bad DPS, it's alright because the stronger DPS will carry them, or when everyone gears up, theres pretty much no pressure on DPS. Say you got 5-6 healers vs 16-17 DPS in a raid, losing one of them is gonna have a much bigger impact than losing one DPS.
    They play a big role, but not a key role. If you're tanks are crap and are taking too much damage, the healers can hardly ignore them for the time needed in order to heal the dps. If your dps is too low, well, you aren't killing anything. If the tanks are unaware and undergeared, they cant survive well enough to let the dps and healers do their job. Every role is the key to progression. When you hit a blockade, that is when a bad player will stand out.

    So no, they are not. They are but one of the parts needed in order to succeed. The other part being good, skilled players filling the dps, tank, and heals roles.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by mstg View Post
    If you look at the top guilds like Method and Blood Legion, they have 1-2 mediocre DPS too who seem to get carried most of the time. But you sure as hell wont see a bad healer in there. Got a kick ass healer? Solo heal H Garrosh like Paragon.
    well, healers cant be carried lightly like DPS, BUT you dont take into acount many factors that can ocur, Warcraft log have issues reading phases in fights (Norushen, Sha) or big distance between players (Juggernaut, Shamans) so sometime it may seem that low performance.
    Specific roles on some encounters - Tower duty on galacras, add switching/positions
    other is just plain luck/Bad-luck situations
    multiple prisons/Phases on sha, Knockbacks on Juggernaut, , Bombs on Spoils

    Really numberless situations that can ruin personal performance

    I really highly doubt Method would keep mediocre DPS players

    Quote Originally Posted by mstg View Post
    Say you got 5-6 healers vs 16-17 DPS in a raid, losing one of them is gonna have a much bigger impact than losing one DPS.
    Very situational
    loosing Heal instead of DPS on HC norushen? wipe on enrage, hardly on lack of healing.
    Lost heal on Juggernaut H or Nazgrim H? mostly lack of healing will wipe you.

    And on progress fights mostly anyone dead midfight is wipe. You cant die and stay dead on HC progress
    Last edited by Dukenukem; 2013-11-28 at 01:59 PM.

  10. #50
    How do you have better DPS if faster kill times = more DPS and you don't even have 3 of the kills?

  11. #51
    As a healer, I challenge you to take your 20ilvl-below-other-dd healer character and heal.
    I don't say it's never my fault that someone die. I say that the vast majority of the time, DDs (and sometimes tanks) just take damages they could avoid.. and die.
    Of course it's hard to anyone to avoid 100% of the things you can avoid. But, with my warlock, it happends I took some avoidable damages and so I handled myself using CDs and selfhealing. My fault = my responsability. I rarely see DD that do the same, they just keep attacking as if nothing happen and say on mumble "please heal me please please" (there's some exageration here).

    Thanks to non-blind people of this thread that think the same.

    A good DD is an alive DD. Not the one that hit 300k dps in the first 45sec of the fight and then die.

  12. #52
    In heroic raids. Keeping people alive is not only the healers job. Obviously dps should not stand in shit. But to get the first kill, usually healers also need all the help they can get from well timed cd's such as: Balance tranquility, dps shaman healing cd's etc.

    Which role is most important depends on the boss. I just recently killed Galakras heroic and for that fight I definitly had the feeling healers where the most important role. Dmg was very high in phase 2, but we could perhaps also find a better way to avoid getting the debuffs getting too high.
    Last edited by Mikael123; 2013-11-28 at 02:09 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by mstg View Post
    If you look at the top guilds like Method and Blood Legion, they have 1-2 mediocre DPS too who seem to get carried most of the time. But you sure as hell wont see a bad healer in there. Got a kick ass healer? Solo heal H Garrosh like Paragon.
    Lol, I don't think there are any "mediocre" players in those guilds.

    It also works the other way around. If you got kick ass dps then you can take two healers instead of one. Also depends on who got the gear for it.

    Anyway, you are doing it as a team. That healer who solo healed HC Garrosh in Paragon is ofcourse awesome but he couldn't have done it without the kick ass dps and tanks and their awesome teamplay. There is no "key" or best role or whatever.

  14. #54
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acacia View Post
    As a healer, I challenge you to take your 20ilvl-below-other-dd healer character and heal.
    I don't say it's never my fault that someone die. I say that the vast majority of the time, DDs (and sometimes tanks) just take damages they could avoid.. and die.
    Of course it's hard to anyone to avoid 100% of the things you can avoid. But, with my warlock, it happends I took some avoidable damages and so I handled myself using CDs and selfhealing. My fault = my responsability. I rarely see DD that do the same, they just keep attacking as if nothing happen and say on mumble "please heal me please please" (there's some exageration here).

    Thanks to non-blind people of this thread that think the same.

    A good DD is an alive DD. Not the one that hit 300k dps in the first 45sec of the fight and then die.
    I, too, believe we should judge role importance by who the worst players rely on most.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  15. #55
    May I add that if we are saying that this is DD that take avoidable damage, I think that's just a statistical matter. They're more in the raid comp. I know healers that take as many damages as "bad" DD (but since they can heal themself, you rarely notice them...)

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I, too, believe we should judge role importance by who the worst players rely on most.
    Well. If the worst player is a healer, he rely on DPS/tanks not fucking up ^^

    I think it's overall rather balanced. You don't want a medicore healer, nor tank, nor dps, when the others are better. You do notice it very quickly if somebody is worse than the rest, regardless of their role.
    A medicore dps can hide among the others on normal, but on HC that one will just die. Overall i think DPS is most important since no healer in the world can save a dps that fails too much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Acacia View Post
    May I add that if we are saying that this is DD that take avoidable damage, I think that's just a statistical matter. They're more in the raid comp. I know healers that take as many damages as "bad" DD (but since they can heal themself, you rarely notice them...)
    I often find healers to heal them up after the rest, because they KNOW they won't take more damage than what they just did, but they don't know what other people will do. This is of course those that overall knows what they do, and soak some things, knowing they will survive it, so they can finish some important heal.

    Edit:
    Of course we have all seen the healer in lfd/lfr that stood in fire, healing himself oom and then dying to it, but i guess we're not talking about those XD
    Last edited by Terridon; 2013-11-28 at 02:23 PM.
    Everyone has so much to say
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    Overall i think DPS is most important since no healer in the world can save a dps that fails too much.
    Or heal a Boss to the death (except for Valithria)
    DPS performance is the most importaint in raid (Im saying that as Healer)

  18. #58
    The Patient Rangz's Avatar
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    All damage a DPS takes should be stuff you cant avoid, like Garrote on Protectors, Swelling Pride on Sha, Screech on Thok, you get the picture. Yes, that damage can be mitigated in different ways, but its not something you can avoid by possitioning youself in "the right place".

  19. #59
    Blademaster losmarios's Avatar
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    Most times a good combination is needed, a raid should avoid week link(s):
    good tank, good dps, good healers is better than
    great tank, great dps, bad healers (Wipes to AOE Damage)
    bad tank, great dps, great healers (Tank dead)
    great tank, bad dps, great healers (Enrage timer)

  20. #60
    Dps > tanks > heals

    You can lower how much damage the raid takes by 1. not standing in shit, 2. proper cooldown rotation 3. faster execution of the fight, EG, killing adds

    Very rarely do you ever run into the issue of "Oh man, I wish this was easier to heal so we could kill it" or "if the tank had more gear he would live"

    One of the few times having more gear on healers would be beneficial is when it allows you to drop a healer for another dps.

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