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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by britishbubba View Post
    Really the only time that someone dying is a healers fault is when that person gets slowly ticked down by raid damage. If it's a large damage hit that's avoidable, don't get hit by it, if it's not avoidable, hit a personal CD.

    Eat anima font to the face and die to the anima dot after? dpser's fault for getting hit with anima font.

    Die over 20 seconds to the pheramone damage from massive mantid crates on spoils? Healers fault for not healing the person taking unavoidable damage.

    Most of the things in SoO that will kill a dps are in the hands of the dps. Don't stand in stupid, especially during progression because healers are already spread thin due to having low gear, and needing to put out lots of healing because the fight is lasting so long due to it being progression.

    I don't think there's any role that's "key" to progression. If your tanks suck and get one shot, you don't kill the boss. If your dps suck and don't meet enrage, you don't kill the boss. If your healers suck and half the raid dies to unavoidable damage, you don't kill the boss. Each role has to work together in order to kill it, and if there's two guilds like the ones you're referencing that are almost the same, the difference is likely not that one guild has a role better than the other, but that the one guild is just better overall than the other.

    And all the while that you think "well without healers healing us, we'd be dead". Well, without dps doing all the mechanics like killing adds, soaking AoEs, etc, you'd all be dead. If the tanks don't tank swap and they both die eventually, mr big boss is gunna ping pong around the room one shotting you all.

    That and lower dps =/= worse at dps.
    Its not as black and white as you make it sound. 'Standing in fire' can be seen as a dps mistake, HOWEVER, a strong healer setup can manage to keep people alive that 1-2 seconds longer when someone 'stands in fire', making your progression allot faster.

    In the end it doesnt matter how much stuff you get hit by as a dps, as long as the raid ends the fight alive and you did enough dps to kill the boss.

    Good example is protectors heroic. A joke of a boss which we one shotted each week. This week we had 2 new trial healers who wern't really pulling their weight and people were ticking down from garrots to about 50% of their hp all the time makes the fight quite a bit more tricky as a dps. Suddenly you need to pay attention to Sha Sear and use a cooldown if you're targetted. Suddenly you get one shotted by poison pools while you only run over them, and not stand in them, taking one tick only. Suddenly a single tick of Rook's whirlwind kills you. Now if the kills were so smooth when you had your usual healer setup, and suddenly get troublesome when you switch 2 healers around, you can blame this on the dps taking too much random damage, but the healers surely are part of the problem aswell then.

    A healer is not only there to outheal unavoidable damage, a good healer is also capable of recovering a situation where a dps messes up. Its the team effort that matters in the end. When a healer is at full mana and 1 person in the raid is standing in some bad shit that healer should go ahead and heal him. If this healer doesnt react fast and lets that person die while he could have saved that person the healer failed on his job aswell in my eyes.

    On farm people tend to slack slightly on moving out of stuff. Now you can choose to make your life hard and remove healers on farm (so that dps is still forced to dodge every single thing), or you can just slightly overheal fights so you can faceroll your way over them. I prefer the last. And a good healer setup makes your whole progression smoother in a similar way.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Its not as black and white as you make it sound. 'Standing in fire' can be seen as a dps mistake, HOWEVER, a strong healer setup can manage to keep people alive that 1-2 seconds longer when someone 'stands in fire', making your progression allot faster.

    In the end it doesnt matter how much stuff you get hit by as a dps, as long as the raid ends the fight alive and you did enough dps to kill the boss.

    Good example is protectors heroic. A joke of a boss which we one shotted each week. This week we had 2 new trial healers who wern't really pulling their weight and people were ticking down from garrots to about 50% of their hp all the time makes the fight quite a bit more tricky as a dps. Suddenly you need to pay attention to Sha Sear and use a cooldown if you're targetted. Suddenly you get one shotted by poison pools while you only run over them, and not stand in them, taking one tick only. Suddenly a single tick of Rook's whirlwind kills you. Now if the kills were so smooth when you had your usual healer setup, and suddenly get troublesome when you switch 2 healers around, you can blame this on the dps taking too much random damage, but the healers surely are part of the problem aswell then.

    A healer is not only there to outheal unavoidable damage, a good healer is also capable of recovering a situation where a dps messes up. Its the team effort that matters in the end. When a healer is at full mana and 1 person in the raid is standing in some bad shit that healer should go ahead and heal him. If this healer doesnt react fast and lets that person die while he could have saved that person the healer failed on his job aswell in my eyes.

    On farm people tend to slack slightly on moving out of stuff. Now you can choose to make your life hard and remove healers on farm (so that dps is still forced to dodge every single thing), or you can just slightly overheal fights so you can faceroll your way over them. I prefer the last. And a good healer setup makes your whole progression smoother in a similar way.
    What you say is right, but it doesn't really invalidate what I said about a dps dying to ticking damage is the healers fault, while a dps eating an annihilate to the face is the dps's fault.

    So yeah, strong healers can carry bad people through standing in shit that won't instagib you, but that wasn't really the point of my post that you quoted.

  3. #63
    I find it funny how the majority of this thread is fine with mediocre DPS as long as you can "live". Focusing on surviving as a DPS is one of the easiest things to do in the game cause duh - you have no responsibility except to do damage. If you stop doing damage, guess what's the only thing left you can do?

    Of course someone who dies all the time is a detriment, but the great DPSers are able to live and do great damage, not one or the other. Settling for DPS who can "live" has to be the best way to get mediocre players for your guild. There's a reason gear is passed to DPS first, so to say that DPS doesn't matter is really stupid.

  4. #64
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willas View Post
    Like what? Staying alive, that's really tough. Don't stand in bad shit.
    You make it sound like, DPS players are only measured in raw output. Without knowing what context you yourself raid in, I'd dare say that anyone raiding Heroic end content, there's much more to dps than just numbers.

    Take our first Heroic Shaman kill. We have some great dps, most of them getting rank #1-10, and we're now working on Heroic Garrosh. We can agree, that you don't rank or kill Heroic bosses, unless you have decent dps. Anyways, although we have good dps, one of the best at surviving is our Hunter. We killed Shamans from 5% just the Hunter and myself a Bear tank alive. What makes him an exceptional dps, is not just his numbers, it's also the fact that he's able to react extremely fast, that he's always aware of his surroundings and that he somehow just finds ways of staying alive, where most others would die.

    We also have a good DK, he pushes out good numbers but he's a lot more focused on just his dps. That means, that he dies more than others, cause he takes chances that if they go well, increases his dps but if they go bad, they kill him. I prefer the style our Hunter has and that's what make the really good dps players stand out imo.

    Healers do have a heavy burden sometimes. Normal mode you can 3 heal things, it doesn't matter. Heroics, you often have to 2 heal to meet the dps requirements (10 man ofc). And since most Heroic guilds gear DPS>Tanks>Healers in that order, said healers often have to do more healing with less gear.

    As a tank I rarely feel like I'm the one "carrying" or having the main responsibility tbh. On some bosses perhaps but overall I've always thought that the real "heroes" in our raid is our healers.

    Like the first week of SoO on Siegecrafter. We were 2 healing it and one healer died almost at the beginning. Our Monk solo healed the fight and I don't believe we lost anyone.

    Or the Priest from Paragon who solo healed Heroic Garrosh, that's something to admire for sure.

  5. #65
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrage View Post
    I find it funny how the majority of this thread is fine with mediocre DPS as long as you can "live". Focusing on surviving as a DPS is one of the easiest things to do in the game cause duh - you have no responsibility except to do damage. If you stop doing damage, guess what's the only thing left you can do?

    Of course someone who dies all the time is a detriment, but the great DPSers are able to live and do great damage, not one or the other. Settling for DPS who can "live" has to be the best way to get mediocre players for your guild. There's a reason gear is passed to DPS first, so to say that DPS doesn't matter is really stupid.
    Except maximizing dps while being healable is the goal, not minimizing damage taken. Not even for tanks really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  6. #66
    It entirely depends on the fight. Some fights are massive dps checks. Some are healer output checks. Some require great tanking.

    What a ****** ******** thread.

  7. #67
    No, it's just easier to notice bad or good healers than bad or good dps (mechanic wise).

  8. #68
    Team work is the greatest key to progression.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    Or heal a Boss to the death (except for Valithria)
    DPS performance is the most importaint in raid (Im saying that as Healer)
    Indeed. Tanking myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrage View Post
    I find it funny how the majority of this thread is fine with mediocre DPS as long as you can "live". Focusing on surviving as a DPS is one of the easiest things to do in the game cause duh - you have no responsibility except to do damage. If you stop doing damage, guess what's the only thing left you can do?

    Of course someone who dies all the time is a detriment, but the great DPSers are able to live and do great damage, not one or the other. Settling for DPS who can "live" has to be the best way to get mediocre players for your guild. There's a reason gear is passed to DPS first, so to say that DPS doesn't matter is really stupid.
    I think you answered in the wrong thread, because next to none said that
    Most said DPS mattered most. On top of that i'm unsure if you just worded i poorly or what, because i read it as "i'm gonna tunnel and healers have to heal me", when you say "you have no responsibility except to do damage".
    In that case, healers are more important than you, because they have to keep your slacking ass alive.
    Everyone has so much to say
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Willas View Post
    Like what? Staying alive, that's really tough. Don't stand in bad shit.
    Interrupts, dispels, usage of cooldowns, soaking, add taunting...

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Except maximizing dps while being healable is the goal, not minimizing damage taken. Not even for tanks really.
    Yeah this I agree with.

  12. #72
    Healers are quite important, We killed thok (hc) last week with only around 20 wipes total and it was mostly because we had 2 shaman (One ele MS) and a resto druid all very geared so we pushed 29 stacks without using 2nd shamans cooldowns and was able to kill bats with 2nd shamans cooldowns poped when they spawned and push another 29 stacks and killing him in the frost kite phase after another 25+ stacks.

    However the limiting factor will 99% of the time be DPS. Better healers can solve that though. 2 healing a dps intensive fight instead of 3 healing it will make it easier if healers can cope

  13. #73
    Remind me how many healers the world first Heroic Garrosh 10 man kill had...

    Good dps and good tanks make healers look better. I'm a healer. Sometimes our guild fluxuates the raid team depending on who can make it. When our 'A' team is there we clear the first 10 bosses in no time then work on progression. When we have a few 'B' team members running with the same tanks and healers we hit a wall early. My mana becomes pressed much harder and many more people die. Both 'A' team and 'B' team pull around the same numbers, it's all about who's good at using their class tools for personal survivability and helping out with group mechanics.
    Is this where the header goes?

  14. #74
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    Tanks trump all. Sort of.
    To quote one of our tanks: tanking is the job you give to whoever is too retarded to handle actual mechanics. On most fights they don't really need to know anything other than when to taunt and where the adds will be coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Except maximizing dps while being healable is the goal, not minimizing damage taken. Not even for tanks really.
    Agreed. This is also one of the main factors in deciding how many healers you need. If all the DPS have the sense to use their defensive abilities when they'll make the most difference to healing requirements, you can often get away with much less healing needed. Each DPSer won't look as good on damage meters, but you'll be able to bring more of them and everyone will actually survive to see the boss die. Damage dealers who see survivability as just a DPS loss will obviously need to raid with healers who are better than them in order to get anywhere.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  15. #75
    You're not getting anywhere without functional tanking healing and dps together but in terms of who specifically is most critical? This is kind of a one-hand clapping question, but okay.

    I'm a tank, so my views need to be filtered through that experience. While I think a bad tank can wreck an encounter faster than anyone and you're not going to get anywhere without a decent tank no matter what, a truly great healer can make up for some degree of other people's failures in ways that a tank generally can't, long enough to allow an encounter to go longer than it otherwise would, allowing people to learn rather than hit a wall. I don't think short of destroying an encounter by failing at something that any dps can have that marked an individual effect on the outcome.

    Besides, I'm a tank... I love my healers.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Axelond View Post
    However the limiting factor will 99% of the time be DPS. Better healers can solve that though. 2 healing a dps intensive fight instead of 3 healing it will make it easier if healers can cope
    Also sometimes it's just easier to heal a fight if there is more dps. You can push through burn phases better and clear the "trash" out of the boss mechanics better.
    Is this where the header goes?

  17. #77
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willas View Post
    Like what? Staying alive, that's really tough. Don't stand in bad shit.
    Like dpsing the correct target, performing mechanics whilst still maintaining effective damage output.

    You don't just mash your keys and hope for the best.

  18. #78
    High Overlord Laylie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Csnyder View Post
    tanks then healers then good dps, not numbers wise but dps who are alive at the end of the fight, yes dps can be carried but so can healers
    dps numbers dont matter as much anymore, the raids have been so mechanical heavy lately its aobut staying alive and doing more damage by the end of the fight
    It is 10x harder to carry a bad healer then it is to carry a bad dps. I have been healing since WOTLK and I DPS'ed from Vanilla to Ulduar. I have been carried as dps before but never as a healer. If you can't pull your weight as a healer you have no reason being in the raid becasue it effects the rest of the healers mana pool. If a dps sucks its not going to effect another dps's damage.
    I believe in the use of hard drugs if only for the sole purpose of natural selection.

  19. #79
    The difference between the "Best in the World" guilds and your average "server first, cleared heroic after 3 months" guild is the DPS. Damage dealers in the world's top guild are able to pull off extremely high numbers while surviving all the encounter's mechanics.

  20. #80
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    When I saw the Paragon HC Garrosh kill, I didn't understand the "ooh he is so good healer omg" hype. Yes, the priest (Jhazrun?) is a good healer, nothing phenomenal, but good. I wouldn't claim him to be the best healer in the world, not by a long shot. But hey, that's just my opinion.

    The thing that impressed me in the video were the TANKS. They did a very very good job in taking care of themselves and the other tank aswell, especially the paladin. The good gameplay by the tanks and dps's made Paragon able to use only one healer in the encounter. So it was good team work; not phenomenal healing by the healer.
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