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  1. #81
    Teamwork is the most key to progression: The hps/dps numbers you put out are a function of your gear, and it's expected that you maximize that within reason. Being able to follow commands and execute the orders given to you, as well as picking up slack if someone fails to perform their duty is what will get you your kills.

  2. #82
    High Overlord Laylie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    When I saw the Paragon HC Garrosh kill, I didn't understand the "ooh he is so good healer omg" hype. Yes, the priest (Jhazrun?) is a good healer, nothing phenomenal, but good. I wouldn't claim him to be the best healer in the world, not by a long shot. But hey, that's just my opinion.

    The thing that impressed me in the video were the TANKS. They did a very very good job in taking care of themselves and the other tank aswell, especially the paladin. The good gameplay by the tanks and dps's made Paragon able to use only one healer in the encounter. So it was good team work; not phenomenal healing by the healer.
    Jhazrun is respected as the best healer in the healing community. He has constantly pushed the boundries of what no normal healer would do. In fact I will go on to say that no healer has matched his skill level. This is coming from a guy who attempted to one heal 10 man heroic garrosh. It was fucking impossible and I am no noob by any standards.
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  3. #83
    The key to progression is good communication.

    Edit: And learning from your mistakes. Whether that is on an individual or group level.
    Last edited by Kanath; 2013-11-28 at 05:53 PM.

  4. #84
    Healers cant heal baddies who stand in mechanics that one shot the person... So no Healers are not the key to progression... The key to progression is having smart raiders.....

  5. #85
    A horrible tank can destroy your progress more easily than a horrible dps or healer.
    When everyone is at a decent level, handling mechanics is the major part and all those members have to cooperate. A worse healer can be carried more easily there though, as HPS output isn't challenged to the max.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laylie View Post
    Jhazrun is respected as the best healer in the healing community. He has constantly pushed the boundries of what no normal healer would do. In fact I will go on to say that no healer has matched his skill level. This is coming from a guy who attempted to one heal 10 man heroic garrosh. It was fucking impossible and I am no noob by any standards.
    He's a good healer but I think you are vastly overstating his skill. Sure he has pretty much maximized his output, but that's no more than many other healers have done too. Paragon had around 400 wipes once they switched to solo healing, which meant that he knew exactly when damage was incoming and how to prepare. Raid cooldown and personal cooldown usage was probably spot on at that point too. The reason Paragon solo-healed Garrosh was because they deemed it possible, not because of some insane skill that only Jahzrun possesses.
    Last edited by Karlzone; 2013-11-28 at 05:55 PM.

  6. #86
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laylie View Post
    Jhazrun is respected as the best healer in the healing community. He has constantly pushed the boundries of what no normal healer would do. In fact I will go on to say that no healer has matched his skill level. This is coming from a guy who attempted to one heal 10 man heroic garrosh. It was fucking impossible and I am no noob by any standards.
    This is exactly my point. Healing isn't rocket surgery. Healing heroic garrosh was probably impossible with your tactics and your raid. Here's the key - I bet you can solo heal it, if your RAID does everything they can to help you do it. You can't solo heal it if you try to brute force through the encounter.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  7. #87
    Just try to play a healer with 2 good friends whom you trust to be efficient and you'll see you'll blame the dps. I think proper dps are the key to progression. an example: I raid with the same mage in my group since totc. now, we are 7 hcs down in soo 10 man and still on iron juggernaut hc, fails all over the place and every new kill is a struggle. so i ask the raid to help the healers out. this mage does not use alter time for a shockpulse, no iceblock, no temporal shield, no greater invisibility. our ret didnt help dispelling on thok nh progression when we played 2 heal 1 tank (after green prison, thok was our only real content blocker in nh, even garrosh took us about as long). our dk's purgatory approximately proccs twice per encounter, the warlock and the shadow are fine. so....the healers might fail some time, but having such no-brainer dds just sucks.
    same with garrosh when sometimes our mage decides to use all his icelance proccs in the only whirling destruction with adds in p3..."i cant do anything I hit an extra target with it" yeah...
    ofc all players matter for real progression, but playing tank or heal since wotlk only and with the same dps since then, I can clearly see a pattern here for US, not for every single raid group out there
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  8. #88
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Here's the thing about dps, the numbers you put out? don't really matter if you're dead or inflating your dps by attacking crap that isn't a priority.
    Bad dpsers (not meaning low numbers but actual bad players) can drag your raid down as much (or even more) than bad healers, my guild more or less rebuilt our healing roster during ToT and a few bumps later we're solid again. In any case people who play for their own enjoyment (doing whatever the fuck they want) above the success of their guild is only going to hinder you (as a group).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Laylie View Post
    Jhazrun is respected as the best healer in the healing community. He has constantly pushed the boundries of what no normal healer would do. In fact I will go on to say that no healer has matched his skill level. This is coming from a guy who attempted to one heal 10 man heroic garrosh. It was fucking impossible and I am no noob by any standards.
    Did your tanks and other raiders play in the same way the Paragon TEAM did? druid tranqs, paladin cds and all other utility used correctly is far stronger than any one player can claim to be. Not to take away any of the accomplishment of Jhazrun but honestly it's more of a team effort + things tend to get messed up in 10man when you do things like that...
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Laylie View Post
    Jhazrun is respected as the best healer in the healing community. He has constantly pushed the boundries of what no normal healer would do. In fact I will go on to say that no healer has matched his skill level. This is coming from a guy who attempted to one heal 10 man heroic garrosh. It was fucking impossible and I am no noob by any standards.
    No offense but you are a noob for even stating this crap, how are you on heroic Garrosh if you can't even understand basic raid 101? Jhazrun doesn't automatically heal for twice the amount you do when he hits his heal button because he's "the best healer". It was a team effort that led to a kill, not to mention 400 attempts worth of practice on it to know when the spikes will come.

    Here's the thing about dps, the numbers you put out? don't really matter if you're dead or inflating your dps by attacking crap that isn't a priority.
    Bad dpsers (not meaning low numbers but actual bad players) can drag your raid down as much (or even more) than bad healers, my guild more or less rebuilt our healing roster during ToT and a few bumps later we're solid again. In any case people who play for their own enjoyment (doing whatever the fuck they want) above the success of their guild is only going to hinder you (as a group).
    I'm not sure how any of you can tell me I'm mistaken for my previous post when people keep posting this about DPS. Do you know what guilds do on Heroic Garrosh in 25 man? They stack up on the boss for whirling corruptions and rotate cooldowns so as to maximize damage on that fight before they have to start dealing with empowered whirling adds that take away from DPS on the boss. Being able to only do one empowered whirling in p3 as well single-handedly makes that phase a ton more easier than when you are having to deal with the second. I bet any guild progressing on that fight would love to consistently only get one empowered whirling there.

    Let's take the toughest healing fight this tier as well - Heroic Thok. Do you know why gear makes it so easy now compared to when it first came out? The fight becomes drastically easier when you have the 1. DPS to burn bats ASAP before they dish out too much damage, 2. ability to kill boss before he gets to fire door, which makes it hard as well. The enrage was a real issue day 1 on this guy as well, which I'm sure 99% of you never got to progress on. You deal with the tough portions to heal with good cooldown usage, not with great healers. Not to mention with good DPS on thok you can just push the phases fast and not worry about min/maxing the amount of acceleration stacks you go to (which btw isn't due to good healers. Good healers can't just heal to 30 stacks without any CD usage)

    All you guys claiming DPS doesn't really matter as long as you live/do mechanics really should join a top guild and come back here and say that. Having awesome DPS makes everything exponentially easier because no matter the fight you are on, cutting it down by even 10 seconds means that's 10 seconds of bad shit that doesn't have to happen.
    Last edited by Dawnrage; 2013-11-28 at 06:33 PM.

  10. #90
    Legendary! Blueobelisk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrage View Post
    No offense but you are a noob for even stating this crap, how are you on heroic Garrosh if you can't even understand basic raid 101? Jhazrun doesn't automatically heal for twice the amount you do when he hits his heal button because he's "the best healer". It was a team effort that led to a kill, not to mention 400 attempts worth of practice on it to know when the spikes will come.



    I'm not sure how any of you can tell me I'm mistaken for my previous post when people keep posting this about DPS. Do you know what guilds do on Heroic Garrosh in 25 man? They stack up on the boss for whirling corruptions and rotate cooldowns so as to maximize damage on that fight before they have to start dealing with empowered whirling adds that take away from DPS on the boss. Being able to only do one empowered whirling in p3 as well single-handedly makes that phase a ton more easier than when you are having to deal with the second. I bet any guild progressing on that fight would love to consistently only get one empowered whirling there.

    Let's take the toughest healing fight this tier as well - Heroic Thok. Do you know why gear makes it so easy now compared to when it first came out? The fight becomes drastically easier when you have the 1. DPS to burn bats ASAP before they dish out too much damage, 2. ability to kill boss before he gets to fire door, which makes it hard as well. The enrage was a real issue day 1 on this guy as well, which I'm sure 99% of you never got to progress on. You deal with the tough portions to heal with good cooldown usage, not with great healers. Not to mention with good DPS on thok you can just push the phases fast and not worry about min/maxing the amount of acceleration stacks you go to (which btw isn't due to good healers. Good healers can't just heal to 30 stacks without any CD usage)

    All you guys claiming DPS doesn't really matter as long as you live/do mechanics really should join a top guild and come back here and say that. Having awesome DPS makes everything exponentially easier because no matter the fight you are on, cutting it down by even 10 seconds means that's 10 seconds of bad shit that doesn't have to happen.
    I'm kind of curious about you since you seem to have this experience. I'd love to see an armory link or guild/server name. Not that I doubt you, I just wanna know.

    But I agree, saying DPS doesn't matter or "dead DPS/attacking wrong target matters." Yeah, but any real raid group isn't going to have people doing that, so why bring it up? DPS does matter.

    I'm sticking with:

    Tanks > role player DPS (per encounter) > healers > damage DPS.

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  11. #91
    All you guys claiming DPS doesn't really matter as long as you live/do mechanics really should join a top guild and come back here and say that. Having awesome DPS makes everything exponentially easier because no matter the fight you are on, cutting it down by even 10 seconds means that's 10 seconds of bad shit that doesn't have to happen.
    Not to mention 10 seconds of healing that doesn't need to be done, which means less mana needed, which means more gearing for throughput, making all the healing that much stronger.

    As a healer in a fairly progressed guild, I still pass every upgrade I can to the dps--because having better dps output makes my job easier than having higher personal hps/sustain. Dps avoiding/minimizing damage mechanics with higher reliability will always have a greater impact than what I could possibly do by restoring that health after the fact.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Guilds that are now 10/14 HC usually are pretty overgeared for the encounters already. It's not a question of how good your dps is, it's more a question of how suicidal it is. Healers and Tanks are equally important, but the dpsers tend to fall into a way of thinking where they say "We're the biggest group, I can play risky, because it won't be such a problem if I die". Tanks don't think like that and healers usually don't, either. But the dpsers thinking like that are wrong. Your dps sucks when you're dead. Many people don't understand that. Even if you pump out 400k+ dps single target, you're worthless if you risk dying once a minute doing that compared to a guy with 350k dps playing it safe.
    ummm wrong....

    The risk takers who know how to manipulate said risks doing 400k vs someone not taking any risks doing 350k carry those people. If you're losing 50k dps from playing safe, there's a problem and it's holding you back possibly

    - - - Updated - - -

    And this thread is wrong. Almost all successful guilds focus on dps even dropping a healer in many cases to do so.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    ummm wrong....

    The risk takers who know how to manipulate said risks doing 400k vs someone not taking any risks doing 350k carry those people. If you're losing 50k dps from playing safe, there's a problem and it's holding you back possibly

    - - - Updated - - -

    And this thread is wrong. Almost all successful guilds focus on dps even dropping a healer in many cases to do so.
    Which is only possible if your healers are skilled enough to "underheal" encounters.

    If an encounter has a tough DPS check, that generally means it's difficult for both the DPS and healers, because you're going to take away healers and put more load on the ones you have to meet the DPS requirement. It does depend on the mechanics of the fight, though.

  14. #94
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    And this thread is wrong. Almost all successful guilds focus on dps even dropping a healer in many cases to do so.
    Basically this at the end of the day, you can go in circles all you want, doesn't change that premise. Thread is totally wrong. All players are equally important, with some more "equal" in importance than others.

  15. #95
    The keye to progression is having a group that works well together, its like it is with a team in any sport for example, plenty of times you have teans beeing champions whithout anybody exceptional on theyre side, if a bunch of good players work well together theyll have much better results than a bunch of exeptional players that are out of tune.

    Numbers dont realy matter in progression, at least not to the extent ppl think they do, theres much more to someones playing skill than the DPS/HPS he pulls and the first step to get a good progression in your guild is to understand that.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by mstg View Post
    If you look at the top guilds like Method and Blood Legion, they have 1-2 mediocre DPS too who seem to get carried most of the time. But you sure as hell wont see a bad healer in there. Got a kick ass healer? Solo heal H Garrosh like Paragon.
    You see, the only times a healer can be challenged is needed is when you heal stuff with less healers than intended (like solo-healing garrosh in 10-man). I love healing, but people who think there is decision making and huge responsibility involved are probably thinking like 7 years back.

  17. #97
    No, they aren't. COMPETENT PLAYERS who can perform tasks that require you to be competent are the key to progression.

    Second, a great RAID LEADER who knows how to call out raid cooldowns when the raid is almost dying is more useful than them. They are no more important than anyone else, and if healers can carry a raid, well, congrats on your normal mode kills or outgearing content because healing is not hard. You can have 6 mediocre healers and still progress through heroic content, but it wasn't always like that. Maybe in 10 man raids, I might be more inclined to agree. But my perspective is from a 25m.
    Last edited by La; 2013-11-28 at 09:03 PM.

  18. #98
    In a fight like spoils, I'd say your tanks are the most important. In a fight like Thok, your healers...

    I do agree however, that in progression raiding in general, outside of requiring good DPS to meet enrages, its healers that are probably the most important.

    How often do guild drop healers for more dps? or single tank for more dps. Both tactics put more strain on healers remaining to pick up the slack or heal the extra tank dmg.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by mstg View Post
    Does anyone agree that healers have the most important role in raiding? My 25 man guild is 10/14H ...
    Ur progressing thru Thok which is obviously a healers fight, feels like your whole thread is biased by this fact.

    Are healers key to progression? Yes. Same with dps and tanks, also key to progression imo.

  20. #100
    Higher DPS but less success due to people dying? Hmmm, maybe the problem then is:
    a) meter whoring to the extent where they dont move out of shit / away from shit
    b) meter whoring on the boss and not dps'ing the right things that would kill you if theyre not downed
    c) meter whoring to the extent that they wont sacrifice that split second of their GCD to pop a defensive
    d) meter whoring to the extent where they wont pop a healthstone
    e) meter whoring to the extent where they dont stand where theyre supposed to for stacked up aoe healing
    f) meter whoring
    g) healers not healing enough

    nice dps though, im sure target dummies in orgrimmar are shuddering in their boots

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