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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire Ailyara's Avatar
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    FLEX Garrosh Strategy - Ideas for simplification ?

    Let me preface this by saying I have normal mode garrosh on farm on my main, so this isn't a whine thread just looking for ideas.

    Saturday nights I've been running a flex raid that has gained some popularity. We go in order, wings 1-4. I invite as many people as I can who want to go. I usually have 3 strong healers so I often have a group of 2 tanks, 3 healers and 15+ dps. It's not unusual for me to be leading a full group of 25. And because my main raiding toon has nothing to get from FLEX, I raid with my alt hunter.

    We have a lot of fun. We rarely wipe, and when we do its usually due to a silly mistake someone made like running thok into the melee pile or something easily correctable like that. Even though not everyone is pulling stellar DPS it is not unusual for us to kill 13 straight bosses with very little problems.

    Then we get to Garrosh.

    I have streamlined my Garrosh strategy as much as possible to both simplify the fight and maximize dps uptime on boss. Phase 1 goes perfect. Then in phase 2 we all stack and move on desecrated weapon and don't kill the weapon, we just keep moving and stacking and healing through whirling corruption. That goes perfect, but then we're only at 40-45% by the 2nd intermisison.

    First weapon gets placed perfectly, non empowered MCs are easy. It's after the first empowered whirling corruption goes out that things start to go to crap.

    We spread out for the empowered whirling corruption of course. The problem is that desecrated weapon after the first empowered whirling corruption usually picks the person in the worst spot to throw it to, then we have to scramble to kill that weapon, then the MC's go out so we're scrambling for that again, and now its time for another empowered whirling corruption. And if we make it to P3, we usually handle the first MCs okay but will lose people to damage on WC and even though the adds are kited fine weapons still get placed badly and it just falls apart, GG 10+ minute wipe.

    So what normally happens is I kick myself (hunter does 150-200k) and grab my overgeared for it brewmaster (300-400k) and some others will go get their mains, then we get garrosh to < 30% by the 2nd intermission, and then we only have one empowered whirling corruption to deal with before P3, and then P3 goes fast enough that there is only one other empowered WC and two weapons and two MCs to deal with, and we do the fight just fine.

    If getting our mains doesn't work, we inevitably (and sadly) have to kick the lowest performing dps'ers.

    Average week? We wipe probably 5-10 times on Garrosh before we get him down by grabbing our overgeared mains and kicking lower ranked DPS.

    I hate kicking people for dps reasons on Flex. It makes me feel shitty, especially if they are doing OK, they aren't standing in the bad a whole lot, and they were fine on the first 13 bosses. If there was a more linear ramp up in difficulty it would feel less bad ("Okay, you can do wing 1 and 2 but I don't think you're quite ready for 3 and 4 yet") but it's just a brick wall at the end for some people. I don't mean they're doing 50k and being carried, I mean sometimes I have to kick at 100k dps just so we can make our break points.

    I feel like some of the groups I've had that struggled on Garrosh could have easily taken out even the first four bosses on normal mode.

    I feel like the level of execution required to kill Garrosh on Flex if you had a team wearing nothing but Flex mode gear would be pretty high. I'm not saying its impossible. Obviously if you got a bunch of alts from Method and gave them 540s they'd probably wipe the floor with it. But we're not talking about Method here, we're talking about average raiders some of whom don't have a normal kill of any boss to their name. Obviously with more practice people will get better about not panicking after empowered whirling corruption goes out, but honestly this is a mostly pug flex raid, people don't have the patience for enough wipes to really get better at the mechanic.

    So I'm looking for ways to simplify the empowered whirling corruption phases for flex, I *think* this is the key here as if we can get better placement for P2 after 2nd intermission desecrated weapons that the raid won't lose their minds too bad. I think we usually have enough dps to push to P3 before a 3rd intermission, its just that everyone's running around.

    I'm toying with the idea of saying, forget about empowered whirling corruption and stack for it, obviously moving out of the crashes. Has anyone tried just tanking and aoeing the adds down in Flex? I know its a DPS loss since when one dies it just stacks health on another one. But I think if I can have a few of my more skilled players take at least a couple of the adds out unstacked the final "4 stack" version of an add shouldn't be that bad for tanks to swap back and forth, one on the boss and one on the add, and cleave should take care of it.

    Does anyone know the break points of how many players I have to keep at ranged for weapon placement? I know with 10 people I need 3 at range. If I can field a "weapon placement" team of as few (higher skilled) people as possible and just have everyone else stack on the boss it should be less random.

    I just feel like the more chaos I can bleed out of this fight (for lack of a better phrase) will lend toward being able to keep my whole group together. I love helping people get this kill if I can, just looking for ideas.

  2. #2
    if more than 15 players in raid. Stack up on boss and AOE. only time you have to spread is when the empowered whirl is coming.

  3. #3
    This isn't really a fight strategy, but I find that it helps to do the wings in reverse order, so you get to Garrosh whilst everyone is fresh and sober.

  4. #4
    As wildeabandon it really isn't much about the strategy.

    It's a gearcheck, which is also why u will struggle with several dps being at 100k (and 100k is kinda bad taken all the aoe in the beginning as well into account, so I can easily understand why u struggle)

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Aqua's Avatar
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    I usually have to go get mains for this fight too, especially if we're carrying quite a handful. I mean I'm not complaining or anything, my alts rarely need anything off garrosh flex anyway, but yeah...seems just a liiittle bit punishing a fight for flex. Which...fair enough, last boss of expansion.

    When I've finally got the heroic dickwad down (soon.tm) I'll be able to compare all 3 difficulties better, but it does feel close to normal mode.

    Oh and don't feel bad for telling people to put their big boy pants on. This isn't lfr, don't let people treat it like it, being the leader means being firm but fair, and if they can't dig deep and pull you at least a solid 140k, they need to evaluate their options or not get invited in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by savutitus View Post
    Yeah, it's always WAR WAR WAR untill..BY ALL THAT IS HOLY DO YOU SEE THAT ENEMY OVER THERE?? GLORIOUS LOOT!!!!!

  6. #6
    Never tried it myself, but some people were claiming it was easier to stack on Empowered Whirling Corruption without moving at all (even out from crashes) once you are better geared. Supposedly crashes become healable and adds die faster than they spawn so there's no big problem with them empowering eachother.

  7. #7
    Dreadlord xytech's Avatar
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    Our strategy, works like a charm for us:

    First phase everyone stacks at boss in the middle and just nuke everything down. Second phase ranged go to the normal ranged stack points for desecrate, move to melee once desecrate land to deal with MC, then move to the other stack point that don't have a weapon. DoT/ranged cleave will deal with the weapon while waiting for the next one to spawn. Every now and then there's a whirling corruption before MC, at that one ranged will move from one stack point to the other, instead of moving to melee. After third intermission you'll spread for whirling corruption and kill one add each, otherwise same as phase 2. At last phase we're close to boss, avoiding him at whirling corruption. Tank takes adds and we just nuke the boss. Picture below illustrates stack points/boss in middle, just took it from google.


  8. #8
    My group has been pretty much the same with everyone pulling 160k dps+ (not bad for a bunch of randoms) and wiping on 4th phase. We were trying to kill the adds in the 4th phase but I will mention to the raid leader the strategy of tanking the adds while dps single targets Garrosh.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aqua View Post
    I usually have to go get mains for this fight too, especially if we're carrying quite a handful. I mean I'm not complaining or anything, my alts rarely need anything off garrosh flex anyway, but yeah...seems just a liiittle bit punishing a fight for flex. Which...fair enough, last boss of expansion.

    When I've finally got the heroic dickwad down (soon.tm) I'll be able to compare all 3 difficulties better, but it does feel close to normal mode.

    Oh and don't feel bad for telling people to put their big boy pants on. This isn't lfr, don't let people treat it like it, being the leader means being firm but fair, and if they can't dig deep and pull you at least a solid 140k, they need to evaluate their options or not get invited in the future.

    Flex will be the new normal mode next expansion so I hope they keep difficulty the way it is comparitively.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  10. #10
    i dont mind a chalenge in flex but atm at least in my opinion it is a bit overtuned for flex - the only succesfull kills i have got there were with players who previously killed it on normal - rest was just a waste of time and ended up in groups disbanding to the point that i decided that its just not worth the time invested there for the 548 looms while i have months of normal garosh farm -_- so i decided to just not do random pug garosh flex - since then i feel much more sane and do it only once / week with guild flex run i wish i had time to join those early wednesdays morning flex farms but im working and those after that are just incapable of downing it unless they consist of hc raiders and i just wont look for hours for such groups

  11. #11
    Flex Garrosh is still a difficult fight, in that it takes dps to not be slacking to execute this fight correctly. Our guild runs it with a lot of other people on the server, not just our own folks, and we regularly have to tell the major under-performers that we'll give them a few pulls to see if we have the numbers to down it with them, otherwise we'll have to let them go.

    This fight is still a serious check for how well your dps can perform. There aren't too many things to trip up healers or tanks on this fight, so I'd say it's a check to see how good your dps really are. The method you are using, OP, is perfectly fine, it's almost identical to the one we use, but sometimes you have to trim the fat to get to the prize. And as others have said, being a good raid leader is understanding that while you want to make sure everyone is getting as much out of raiding as possible, eventually you have to understand that you are holding back the entire group by keeping those that can't pull their weight, or die to mechanics they shouldn't die to. As long as you are consistent, and give people a chance at it, you can't do much more besides letting the bottom of the barrel know they are at the bottom and tell them to improve and come back next week.

    tl;dr - Either most people kill the boss, or nobody kills the boss, that's your decision to make at this point.

  12. #12
    If your problem is weapon placement, why do you kick people with low dps who are playing okay, instead of people who are responsible for placing weapon badly?
    Shaman - Hunter - Monk - Druid - Warlock - DK - another Shaman - one more Shaman

  13. #13
    100k DPS is terrible especially if they're at an ilvl that you would be inviting them for a flex Garrosh. You sound like a nice bloke so you should talk to these guys and tell them they are capable of more.

    But basically it doesn't matter for this fight. You can go on and get a third intermission if you want but it comes down to handling the adds properly. Look at what raid cooldowns you have and assign them for each and every one. Next you have to deal with the adds. If you have a tank with high self healing, ie all except warrior, then make sure they have that turned off when adds come and have your healers put a cd on them if they need it. Tanks will grab all the adds with their self heals even if a dps takes away half the adds health.

    Now what I do in my flex runs is the stack method. Whole raid stacks on 1 point for the entirety of P1 and P2 until you get an empowered WW. Direct target the axes and they should go down within 5 seconds. You lose some dps from switching off the boss but it makes up for it because you don't have to run around. For the empowered WW split the raid into two teams have 1 on 1 side of the boss and the other on the other side. If they are still full retard and can't spread out enough then assign them places to stand. That's what you have to do as a RL, give them the strat and if they fail to do it go in there and micromanage what needs to be done.

    The real fight starts when he runs to the middle after P1 and hits 100%, but where does everyone use their major cooldowns? At the start of P1 to get the big deeps on the adds to make them look good. P2 will hit and all your major DPS cooldowns will still be on CD. Have your DPS all save them and make sure everything is up at the start of P2, if there are any adds still up just ignore them except for the classes who can dot and smash the boss. Don't even cleave off him unless you're a class who can do it without ST DPS loss.

  14. #14
    Dreadlord xytech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    100k DPS is terrible especially if they're at an ilvl that you would be inviting them for a flex Garrosh. You sound like a nice bloke so you should talk to these guys and tell them they are capable of more.
    This is very true, people only doing 100k are very much being carried. Don't feel bad for removing them as they're not even remotely close to pulling their own weight, obviously taking "the talk" first would be nice of you.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by xytech View Post
    This is very true, people only doing 100k are very much being carried. Don't feel bad for removing them as they're not even remotely close to pulling their own weight, obviously taking "the talk" first would be nice of you.
    nobody is denying fact that people who do 100k dps are being carried - but some people need to realise that flex was introduced as the mode which although giving chalenge was intentended for the groups who "carry" those weaker performers - and 13/14 flex is offering that - the only problem is with garosh cause if the fight to be succesful requires team of hc raiders in 2 mode easier tool - its failing somewhere - i understand all those arguments that its the last boss of expansion/tier etc etc but there are for sure possibilites to make flex mode garosh a tiny bit easier/more accesible without gutting out mechanics - for example - cut down numebr of adds from epowere whirlwind by 25-50 % and number of mced people (in p3) by 50 % ? so that for 10 people there were 5 adds spawning and only 1 person mced ? this way mechanics would be kept in u could still wipe easily if u ignored them but it would also made those fights significantly easier to handle - what do u think about something liek that ?

  16. #16
    Dreadlord xytech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    **
    I don't support nerfing the mechanic. You're talking about carrying the weak performers, but even weak performers can follow tactics. If you think it's supposed to be for those people then changing hp/damage numbers would make much more sense. Garrosh is perfectly doable in decent 540 teams, as long as everyone can pull their own weight. That's perfectly reasonable imo and I like the balance. Heroic raiders are only required for the fight if you're carrying multiple people who performs very poorly.

    Good thing about flex is it's flexible. First 13 bosses are reasonably easy so you can carry those players there and get rid of them for the toughest fight. As they're not carrying their own weight and likely not paying they can't possibly get offended or mad about it. They're lucky to have been in the group in the first place.

  17. #17
    my point isnt that it shouldnt be hard pls dont misunderstand me - i just speak from my experience with openraid pugs groups which i joined and which i created there - the only ones which were able to complete it were in 90% hc raiders on mains or normal geared alts -_- which is kinda defeating the purpose of flex imo -_- and at least half of those were only done cause we pushed the dps really high basickly ignoring the p3 mechanics -_- i mean if u pushing garosh on 20-15% when u come out of the 2nd transition in p2 then its pretty obvious u overgear badly it basickly ignoring empovered whirlwinds -_-

  18. #18
    Dreadlord xytech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    my point isnt that it shouldnt be hard pls dont misunderstand me - i just speak from my experience with openraid pugs groups which i joined and which i created there - the only ones which were able to complete it were in 90% hc raiders on mains or normal geared alts -_- which is kinda defeating the purpose of flex imo -_- and at least half of those were only done cause we pushed the dps really high basickly ignoring the p3 mechanics -_- i mean if u pushing garosh on 20-15% when u come out of the 2nd transition in p2 then its pretty obvious u overgear badly it basickly ignoring empovered whirlwinds -_-
    I love those groups.

    My first kill though, the week flex part 4 came out, I was with a openraid group of inexperienced 530-540 people. We had been playing together some during the release of the first three parts and we were all decent players. Only Garrosh took us a good 4 hours or so as we made up all the tactics while doing it, but we got him down eventually. We had some great fun that evening. I can see where you're coming from though, it's hard even in a somewhat good group when gear is not up-to-par.

  19. #19
    Epic! shokter's Avatar
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    Not much strat advice here (as I rarely if ever do flex) but I sympathize with your position. It sucks to have to kick some people just for one boss, but the reality is that a few low dps will stretch the fight and make it more difficult. If another solution is not forthcoming I'd just make sure to extend invites for your next flex to those few low dps who needed to be kicked...maybe if they keep at it and get a lil drop luck they can improve their game with you and eventually be able to contribute meaningful dps to Garrosh.
    "Brevity is...wit"

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebinnaattori View Post
    if more than 15 players in raid. Stack up on boss and AOE. only time you have to spread is when the empowered whirl is coming.
    While I don't see a reason for the 15+ conditional, this is a great strat and really trivializes the fight (as far as execution; the gear check is still very relevant). Fleshing it out a little:

    P1
    • Everyone stack in the middle of the safe lane
    • 1/2 ranged DPS assigned to kill the engineer; runs out to kill it when it's up, then restacks
    • When he throws a Weapon (on top of the group), all DPS switch and kill it quickly (use a raid CD if necessary)
    • When Warbringers come, don't focus on AoEing them down; just passively cleave them
    • When Wolf Riders come, focus them down and interrupt them
    • Bonus: when the Iron Star rolls by in the other lane, knockback any remaining Warbringers into it

    Heart Phases
    • Same strat as always
    • Push the first Heart Phase in under 25 energy or you'll probably get behind
    • You definitely should push P3 before the third heart phase; ability timings get brutal after this heart phase

    P2
    • Stay stacked on the boss
    • Again, when he throws a Weapon (on the group), everyone swap and kill it
    • MCs should be broken almost immediately by tanks, but everyone should still help break them; just don't DoT them
    • For non-Empowered Whirling, stay stacked and use a raid CD
    • For Empowered Whirling, spread out, kill adds, then restack ASAP

    P3
    • As soon as he hits 10% in P2 and starts to transition, blow Heroism/pots, stand still, and burn
    • Ranged spread out once he starts meleeing again
    • Make sure Empowered Weapons do not land near melee; do not waste DPS on these
    • Ranged stack back in melee right before MCs and get them out quickly; remember you must interrupt them and can't CC them (if they last that long)
    • Spread out for Empowered Whirling, ignore adds (as in, do not kill any of them), and use raid CDs
    • Kill the boss before the second Whirling (if not possible with your DPS, do the first Whirling normally by killing adds, then ignore adds on the second)

    This strat lets your raid stay stacked and standing still for most of the fight, which does amazing things to not-so-great players' damage/healing and trivializes MCs and Weapons. You do lean on your healers a bit by standing in Weapons and taking full Whirling damage, but it should be more than manageable with proper raid CD usage.

    EDIT: after re-reading the OP, I decided some additional pointers for Whirling Corruption would be good:
    • The void zones that spawn adds always appear under a person
    • A person will never have more than one of these spawn under them
    • However, not everyone will have an add spawn under them
    • If people are spread properly, it's really easy to tell which one spawned under you
    • If a void zone appears under you, step out it, then as soon as the add spawns, you hit your add and only your add to get it on you; a stun is also helpful to keep it from running off
    • If a void zone does not spawn under you, just tunnel Garrosh
    • Do not kill adds on top of each other
    • After most of the adds are dead, help clean up the remaining ones
    • If things go wrong, use taunts (Tanks, Warriors, DKs, Paladins, Druids, Hunters, and Sym'd Rogues all have taunts) to pull adds apart
    • If anything gets Empowered, CC/kite it or have a tank pick it up

    We've done this with huge flex raids of, well, mediocre players and it works every time.
    Last edited by Squirl; 2013-12-06 at 08:21 AM.

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