The fall of Jaina Proudmoore

[KrazyK923]

Too bad it was part of a two-expansion storyline where we came along for the ride.

[Arrashi]

And now horde gets people that use words and ONLY words into leadership.

But words can hurt as well !!! I guess....

[Florena]

After the red comes the silver,
She who was golden and bright;
The Proud Lady humbled and bitter,
Shall now turn her thoughts to the fight.

Saphire to diamond she gleams now,
The Kirin Tor leader who comes,
"Queen" of a kingdom now fallen,
Marching to war's martial drums.

Be ye warned - the tides of war
At last shall break upon the shore.

Much as I like Jaina and hope she shapes up instead of being ousted or going evil, that doesn't sound like a prophecy saying she'll be a great leader, but a warning saying she's coming and she's going to bring Dalaran into the war. Everything in the prophecy has already come to pass unless there's more I'm missing.

Right because just completely stopping the faction that has caused so much damage to you isn't worth it, so let's just let them survive as a faction. Surely they won't do something stupid again!



This means nothing, because the Alliance doesn't, again, win anything. Help is derogatory in this manner because we're forced into the Horde's Rebellion storyline with nothing to show because of it. All we're told is "Yeah you won." That's great. More words. Alliance gets words while the Horde get deeds. I had thought they would have stopped that bullshit, but at Blizzcon Metzen just reinforces it.

"The Alliance is a superpower now!" Whoop-di-fucking-do. Are we going to actually see this referenced in the game? Doesn't seem like it.

My biggest worry for WoD is that due to it being on Draenor the relative alliance strength won't be relevant or shown and at the end the horde will rediscover its identity and come out on relatively equal footing after discovering itself and it won't matter.

[KaPe]

My biggest worry for WoD is that due to it being on Draenor the relative alliance strength won't be relevant or shown and at the end the horde will rediscover its identity and come out on relatively equal footing after discovering itself and it won't matter.

It would be very convenient for Blizzard. That way they can still claim that the Alliance is vastly superior, but it just so happens that the Horde will gain new allies that will bridge the gap. And no one will be able to prove them wrong, since there will be no direct confrontation, except maybe for some small scale skirmishes, in which the Alliance advantage wouldn't be that important.

Just need to cripple the Draenei somehow, to ensure that Alliance new friends won't boost them even further. I can definitely see them going that way.

[Enosh]

never mind the fact that alliance would not have helped the trolls, taruen, undead, and bloodelves if they tried to stop garrosh before anything happened at all.

of course not, why the fuck should the alliance help them given that they are just as responsible for everything as garrosh is?
because their feeling got hurt by him? daaaw poor trolls, here have this refugee from Theramore whose wife got killed by a troll tell you how terrible they feel because Garrosh backfired on you

[Florena]

of course not, why the fuck should the alliance help them given that they are just as responsible for everything as garrosh is?
because their feeling got hurt by him? daaaw poor trolls, here have this refugee from Theramore whose wife got killed by a troll tell you how terrible they feel because Garrosh backfired on you

Not to mention that, you know, Garrosh was doing those things to the trolls, tauren, goblins and blood elves WHILE WAGING WAR AGAINST THEM. The Alliance WAS trying to stop Garrosh, Varian even attempted to invade Org in TIdes of War. Didn't work becaues lol garrosh super weapon ass pull.

[KrazyK923]

My biggest worry for WoD is that due to it being on Draenor the relative alliance strength won't be relevant or shown and at the end the horde will rediscover its identity and come out on relatively equal footing after discovering itself and it won't matter.

I am pretty sure this is exactly what they're going to do. Somehow, someway the Horde will be back to what it was (Maybe reinforced by the Frostwolves or something), and the supposed superiority of the Alliance that we were told it had won't ever need to actually be shown in the game.

[7seti]

You and Seti both keep using the world 'help' in a manner that sounds derogatory, rather than in the sense that points out the Alliance essentially carried the siege. Kosak also posted on Twitter that things were changing in-lore, and we'll probably see the results of these withdrawal negotiations in War Crimes. We probably would've seen some of it in 5.5, ditto for changes in Orgrimmar to show the start of Vol'jin's reign, but that got scrapped to get Warlords out faster.

Honestly, gameplay and story segregation has always been a huge problem with WoW. According to Tides of War, the Alliance retook Ashenvale back in Wolfheart and the Horde was still smarting from the loss, but it's still in flux ingame. Northwatch should have Horde banners scattered and broken all over the place after the Alliance retook it, but it still looks the same as it does when you're done questing in that leg of the Barrens. Silvermoon should be up in arms over Jaina's purge but it's still stuck back in 2.4. Zhouchin should be a blood-soaked battlefield after the events of Shadows of the Horde, never mind the ingame invasion, but it's probably still pristine with a couple fires here and there ingame after you finish that questline. I haven't yet, it's on my to-do list.

You're dancing around the problem here without actually mentioning it. Gameplay and story segregation has always been a huge problem... for the Alliance. Not so much for the Horde.

Horde victories are in-game and permanent. Ashenvale will forever be shown in its Cataclysm state, with the Horde advancing. Their victories in Southern Barrens and Andorhal end with a final phase showing the Alliance routed, sometimes removing flight paths in the process. Theramore will forever be a smoking crater. Southshore will forever be slimed. You get the picture, I think.

Alliance victories, what few they have, are either not shown in-game or are temporary. The retaking of Ashenvale is something we'll never see. The post-Siege events are again relegated to the novels. Swamp of Sorrows technically ended with an Alliance win, but the final phase of the quest chain puts everything back as it was beforehand. No trace of that victory remains. You think we've ever going to see an Alliance Dalaran in the game? I doubt it.

I can only think of one Alliance win that's permanent, and that is Taurajo. Even then, the Horde got a nigh-identical quest hub about a hundred yards away.

It's as though the Horde story is the main path, created first and clearly shown from beginning to end. The Alliance story has to fit around it and is patchy, filled with plotholes and sometimes missing entirely. That's what makes SoO a hollow victory. You can hype up the "Alliance superpower" as much as you like, but we'll never actually see it.

[noralya]

I personally hope they never go the arc of making Jaina (or Sylvanas for that matter) bad guys, I like em too much

[KrazyK923]

I can only think of one Alliance win that's permanent, and that is Taurajo. Even then, the Horde got a nigh-identical quest hub about a hundred yards away.

Not to mention they couldn't even give the Alliance an actual victory. It had to have been a largely civilian-controlled town, where the Alliance is meant to look like terrible people attacking civilians (By the way, its not until WAY LATER in Tides of War where Baine acknowledges that Taurajo was a legitimate target and Hawthorne refused to civilians slaughtered), where the Alliance's General, somebody who could have been an interesting character, gets murdered on the road.

[Aquamonkey]

Great, concession accepted, but then what the fuck have you even been arguing about this whole time?

Because you were spewing bullshit that they didn't care. Cairne cared and died for it. Baine cared and warned Jaina. Vol'jin cared and took his people out of Orgrimmar. Eitrigg cared and his followers were arrested. Thrall cared, but he was healing the planet.

- - - Updated - - -

Never said "full-scale rebellion." How about a quest or two in Cata or MoP where you're secretly sent by Baine or Vol'jin or Sunwalker Dezco (Who shares Baine's thoughts about Garrosh) making you undermine Garrosh's agenda? Nope. Doesn't happen. Words are nice. But they are words. Sorry, Horde, you went along with a fascist nutjob all the way until he turned on his own people. You don't get to whitewash away that part of your history because NOW Garrosh went too far.

That would've been really good story development. Instead of red-herring Garrosh's nobility by dropping that orc off a cliff in Stonetalon.

[Florena]

Because you were spewing bullshit that they didn't care. Cairne cared and died for it. Baine cared and warned Jaina. Vol'jin cared and took his people out of Orgrimmar. Eitrigg cared and his followers were arrested. Thrall cared, but he was healing the planet.

- - - Updated - - -


That would've been really good story development. Instead of red-herring Garrosh's nobility by dropping that orc off a cliff in Stonetalon.

Well to be fair Cairne cared and died for it but that was before Garrosh actually DID anything. Kind of ironic that at that point Garrosh was being falsely accused.

[Traveler Voltin]

MoP jaina is a stupid insane paranoid idiot who back tracks too much.

its all garrosh's fault. no wait all the horde is to blame. wait no its just garrosh's fault. its all the hordes fault dismantle them when she damn well knew it wasnt going to be so easy.

i want a Jaina that will get stuff done but will be reasonable. this jaina isnt.

[Shakari]

She is insane when she blames the current Horde for what Garrosh' Horde did. That's blatant racism, she's just like her father now. She can't reason anymore, all she wants is revenge.

The Horde is to Jaina what the Lich King was to Sylvanas and what the Alliance was to Garrosh. If they are able to take out the threat once and for all, they will go back to a normal life, but if they can't do that they just spiral towards madness. Jaina is slowly going crazy, no wonder Khadgar will be the focal Mage in WoD and not Jaina.

Its not insanity and its not racism as she's blaming the whole horde not just one of the races. She is pissed off though and understandably so, it will take time for her to come to terms with these new choices and the new horde.

[Aquamonkey]

Well to be fair Cairne cared and died for it but that was before Garrosh actually DID anything. Kind of ironic that at that point Garrosh was being falsely accused.

Cairne knew Garrosh was going to be warmongering even if he got that one instance wrong. He witnessed Garrosh gleefully use the Northrend treaty to attack helpless Alliance sailors. He opposed the appointment (though he waited until the last minute to do so), but was overruled by Thrall.

[Jotaux]

Not this again...

Jaina is not crazy, she is not corrupted, she is not berserk or consumed by the desire for revenge. She is simply (and justifiably) pissed and distrustful of the Horde.

The Kirin Tor will remain Alliance as it once was and should have always been.

While I agree her reaction is natural and makes sense, nothing justifies racism and genocide.

[Florena]

While I agree her reaction is natural and makes sense, nothing justifies racism and genocide.

You can argue the racist angle but she's not genocidal. She was briefly but got over that in Tides of War.

[Aquamonkey]

You can argue the racist angle but she's not genocidal. She was briefly but got over that in Tides of War.

I think she'd still prefer to wipe them all out, but would settle with killing a bunch of them while continuing the war to dismantle the Horde.

[KrazyK923]

Dave Kosak flat out said she didn't want to just kill them all.

[Arrashi]

Cairne knew Garrosh was going to be warmongering even if he got that one instance wrong. He witnessed Garrosh gleefully use the Northrend treaty to attack helpless Alliance sailors. He opposed the appointment (though he waited until the last minute to do so), but was overruled by Thrall.

Nah, he just personally disliked garrosh, and used first excuse to try to get rid of him. He was like kid who can't controll his own emotions. I find it hilarous that "Wise old bull" died like a cretin. But, at least we had burgers.