The fall of Jaina Proudmoore

[Aquamonkey]

By the way, you guys wanna see something hilarious? Remember when I posted this a couple posts ago?



Now let's look at Aqua's response!



No Aqua, I didn't miss it! In fact I had additional words in my post asking "Even if Thrall really was busy, why wouldn't he just go dickslap Garrosh as soon as he was done?" You seem to have missed them for some reason. It couldn't be that you didn't want to have to answer the question, could it? No, I'll bet that you just wanted to make the post shorter and happened to choose those words at random. That's what you'll try to tell me, right?

Yeah.

You have been brutally schooled in this argument. This bullshit you're doing where you desperately try to split the debate into little sets of one-liners in response to random sentences? I know no one ever admits to losing an argument on the internet, but this is what people do when they lose an argument on the internet.

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One more kick before I peace out!



With no one surviving the blast, Thrall believed that Jaina was killed. This unpleasant news caused Farseer Nobundo to inform Thrall that the Earthen Ring would understand if he were to go back to the Horde and that they could continue to heal the land with out him. Thrall knew that nothing was greater than healing the damage done by the Cataclysm and so remained, while remarking to himself that even if Jaina's ghost were to come to him and demand vengeance he would still reply no.

Thrall didn't give a shit. Period. Jaina helped him kill her own father for the sake of peace, and when Garrosh nuked her entire city and maybe killed her, Thrall, even noble Thrall, just went "Welp, sucks to be those guys I guess!"

But gosh, I don't know why Jaina seems really distrustful of the Horde! It's a mystery!

Yea, completely ignore that repairing the Maelstrom was more important. But I guess you didn't actually read the book.

Thrall closed his eyes for a long moment. He was grieving, shocked, furious. He wanted nothing more than to don armor, pick up the Doomhammer, and march on Orgrimmar. To punish Grom Hellscream’s son for all the foolish, arrogant, devastating things he had done. Garrosh was his mistake, his responsibility, and no one else’s. Thrall had tried to instill orcish pride in Garrosh, but instead of taking the best of his father’s lessons, the young Hellscream had taken the worst of them.
But he could not go, could not satisfy his pain. Not yet. Even if Jaina Proudmoore’s ghost were to show up and cry for vengeance right this moment, he would have to tell her no.
He lifted sad blue eyes to Nobundo and said, “I grieve. I am angry. But I am still called to be here. Nothing is greater than this duty, right now.”
No one spoke, not even Aggra. They all knew what the admission had cost him. Rehgar reached out and clapped Thrall on the shoulder.
“We won’t let anyone, Horde or Alliance, who fell in this ill-conceived abomination die in vain. Let us honor them by what we do here. Let’s get back to work.”
--Tides of War

Clearly Thrall didn't give a shit...


BTW, all your boasting and chest-thumping doesn't make you any more right. It's actually a sign of a weak position and insecurity that you can't let your evidence speak for itself.

[Florena]

Thrall: Oh, when Theramore is blown up he has his DUTY to attend to. When the war spills over into a new land of fluffy panda people that want nothing to do with it he has his DUTY to attend to. But when the Darkspear are put under Martial Law, now he has time to go get involved and confront Garrosh.

Yes, the Horde had reasons for not opposing Garrosh, but the fact remains they didn't act against him until they were being targeted and likely would never have if Garrosh had been pro Horde and not just pro Orc.

With Jaina, she wasn't quite 'super hippie' at the start of 5.1, she stated outright she had to wrestle with her anger every day. That was made clear. And then when she was betrayed from within, that anger got the better of her. Reading her dialogue there it also seems that part of her wants to join the Alliance, but she's the leader of the Kirin Tor whose alliance with Silvermoon, despite the temporary break between Frozen Throne and Wrath, goes back far longer than the Alliance with a capital A. If things had gone differently, the bell never stolen via sunreavers and the blood elves had joined the Alliance she would have had no problem throwing the full weight of Dalaran into the war. Sure it's not shown explicitly, but one would think it would be hard to miss those Theramore civilians walking into the city. Jaina's not going to care who else is strung up, she's going to see HER people, cilvilians once her responsibility to protect, strung up with their babies kidnapped and she's going to be PISSED.

And she's not genocidal, hasn't been since Tides of War. She wants to 'dismantle' not 'ethnically cleanse.' And given all she's been through I think it's fair to say she's not going to have the same crystal clear 20/20 birds eye view of the whole story that we get as players, even from someone who was once pretty much defined by her ability to see both sides of the story. Her loss was too personal, and after she'd done so much for peace. Maybe what Jaina is doing isn't right, but I wouldn't call her crazy nor genocidal.

As an Alliance player I can look at things from the horde side of view, but lore characters don't have the luxury of a detached birds eye view of everything that happens. They're THERE, in the action, feeling the pain of loss, having to make decisions on the spot.

[Trassk]

Thrall: Oh, when Theramore is blown up he has his DUTY to attend to. When the war spills over into a new land of fluffy panda people that want nothing to do with it he has his DUTY to attend to. But when the Darkspear are put under Martial Law, now he has time to go get involved and confront Garrosh.

You know its ironic, since your part of the reason it happened that way. Thrall was considered to involved in cataclysm, which you griped about with the rest, and so blizzard held him off from the main story until the end. They even said this. So, really, its not Thralls fault in his actions were held off, he would have been more involved, buy people had to bitch about it.

Besides, the darkspear were part of his horde, where as Jaina was part of the alliance. Maybe if people hadn't been so up there own backsides about Thralls interaction in cata it would have been different. And yes, the outcome of the story these days depends completely on fan motivation and how developers see that, they work the lore to what they think will get the most appeal, not for what makes sense, so, blame yourselves.

[DeeTwelve]

stuff

Listen chuckles, I'm through watching you spam horseshit and try to split the debate up into a series of tiny unrelated one-liners. You managed to ignore the whole "What was Thrall doing after his work ended?" question yet again, despite being specifically called out on it, and I'm just plain not interested in repeating myself a fourth, fifth, or sixth time to someone who's clearly just trying to squirm out of a beating.

So I'll make it really simple, here's my position:

Attempts to claim that "the Horde" as a political entity doesn't share Garrosh's guilt for his war crimes are laughable. Garrosh became ruler of the Horde legally and officially, and the forces carrying out his crimes were legal units of the Horde military. Attempts to claim that the existence of the Darkspear Revolution somehow absolves the Horde of these crimes are spurious, since the Darkspear Revolution was commenced in response to Garrosh's moves against his internal political enemies, not in response to his war crimes.

The fact that Garrosh dealt harshly with dissent does not absolve the Horde. The fact that some of his soldiers felt bad about their actions does not absolve the Horde. Both of these things have been true of even the most heinous and evil dictatorships in history. Furthermore, the fact that former Horde clans Blackrock and Dragonmaw were reintroduced to the Horde and contributed heavily to Garrosh's regime also doesn't really change the situation, since they were in fact made members of the Horde again and served officially under its banner. Claims that these two bedraggled clans gave Garrosh the power to subjugate the other races of the Horde into compliance are insane and idiotic, not only because it paints the rest of the Horde as ridiculously weak, but because those other races DID REBEL once Garrosh did something that actually motivated them.

And that's the bottom line. The Horde did have the capacity to rebel. We know that, because they did in fact rebel once they felt sufficiently motivated. They just didn't give enough of a shit about Garrosh's war crimes to bother at that point. Garrosh had to move against the other races of the Horde before anyone inside of it was willing to stand up and try to stop him. That isn't courage, or heroism, or redemption, it's self-defense.

You wanna rebut this, Aqua? Then post a rebuttal. Don't just fucking quote it into 17 separate one-liners to argue over after you coincidentally delete any questions you don't feel like answering. Post a fucking coherent narrative that explains why anyone outside of the Horde should greet it with anything other than distrust or open wrath. I fucking dare you.

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Thrall: Oh, when Theramore is blown up he has his DUTY to attend to. When the war spills over into a new land of fluffy panda people that want nothing to do with it he has his DUTY to attend to. But when the Darkspear are put under Martial Law, now he has time to go get involved and confront Garrosh.

Listen, the fact is, it doesn't even really matter. This whole tangent started when I pointed out that if Thrall had gone and smashed Garrosh the day after Theramore, it would have made things better in terms of how the Horde is viewed. Aqua then began this gigantic stupid tangent about Thrall's schedule that day, but the fact is, it doesn't matter. Let's just assume Thrall legitimately had more important things to do. Well, so what? He still didn't actually get to go smash Garrosh and redeem the Horde. It still didn't happen. Whining about why it didn't happen is just another pointless Aquamonkey derail.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to endless idiotic little one-liners that mean nothing. It splits the debate up into a series of minor arguments over bullshit instead of one large argument over an actual point.

[Florena]

You know its ironic, since your part of the reason it happened that way. Thrall was considered to involved in cataclysm, which you griped about with the rest, and so blizzard held him off from the main story until the end. They even said this. So, really, its not Thralls fault in his actions were held off, he would have been more involved, buy people had to bitch about it.

Besides, the darkspear were part of his horde, where as Jaina was part of the alliance. Maybe if people hadn't been so up there own backsides about Thralls interaction in cata it would have been different. And yes, the outcome of the story these days depends completely on fan motivation and how developers see that, they work the lore to what they think will get the most appeal, not for what makes sense, so, blame yourselves.

And again you blindly assume that they changed Thrall's story due to alliance complaints. I'm not even upset that I didn't see Thrall until 5.4 as an Alliance player, the point I'm making is that even Thrall himself did not DO anything to oppose Garrosh until Garrosh turned on the horde and therefor Alliance characters should not feel an abundance of sympathy for the Horde, Jaina included. I think you've completely missed the point I had in bringing up Thrall. I'm not saying I'm upset Thrall waited until 5.1 to do anything, I'm just pointing out that he DID wait until 5.1 before he did anything about it. I'm actually glad he's involved but mostly on the horde side of the story. I don't want to follow him around as an Alliance player but I don't think he should be cut out of the story either, and they're continuing this trend in WoD which I'm happy with.

And Thrall is still involved in things He's still in 5.1, 5.3 and 5.4. He's going to be one of the main characters for the Horde in WoD. Thrall is NOT being sidelined. Again I'm not complaining about him not being sidelined, just pointing that he isn't. If the devs were altering the story heavily due to complaints one would think we wouldn't be seeing Thrall as much as we have. He hasn't vanished off the face of Azeroth, he's still involved and still very important.

Honestly it seems like whenerver something you don't like happens story wise you're quick to blame blizz on 'caving to whining alliance players' or blaming Kosak's 'troll fetish.'

[purebalance]

Only if the Horde first spend an expansion getting their butts kicked by the Alliance, followed by a patch delivering them resources, then finally hand the city back the the Alliance and walk away with nothing to show for it.

It's only fair.

First off if alliance wanted to claim org right there it would be a serious fight with lots of losses on both sides ending with more than likely horde still winning the fight since they knew the city more.

Secondly, you agreed to such when you helped Vol'jin.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Jaina wants to destroy the Orcs. And I think WoD is going to force her over the deep end. She's going to try and utterly nuke Draenor, and we'll have to put her down because of some BS reason like "this would also destroy Azeroth."

[Florena]

Jaina wants to destroy the Orcs. And I think WoD is going to force her over the deep end. She's going to try and utterly nuke Draenor, and we'll have to put her down because of some BS reason like "this would also destroy Azeroth."

No she does not. She wants to dismantle the horde as a political entity. You can argue that's wrong of her too but bit of a difference there.

[Aquamonkey]

Listen, the fact is, it doesn't even really matter. This whole tangent started when I pointed out that if Thrall had gone and smashed Garrosh the day after Theramore, it would have made things better in terms of how the Horde is viewed. Aqua then began this gigantic stupid tangent about Thrall's schedule that day, but the fact is, it doesn't matter. Let's just assume Thrall legitimately had more important things to do. Well, so what? He still didn't actually get to go smash Garrosh and redeem the Horde. It still didn't happen. Whining about why it didn't happen is just another pointless Aquamonkey derail.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I refer to endless idiotic little one-liners that mean nothing. It splits the debate up into a series of minor arguments over bullshit instead of one large argument over an actual point.

You're making useless arguments about "what ifs." Horde/Alliance war wouldn't have happened if Thrall went back and dethroned Garrosh. Cataclysm wouldn't have happened if Velen had warned everybody. WC3 and WotLK wouldn't have happened if Jaina and Uther didn't pussy out. etc... nothing but useless "what ifs."

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Listen chuckles, I'm through watching you spam horseshit

You mean direct quotes from canon?

You're the one spamming horseshit about how Thrall and others didn't care about Garrosh's warmongering. Eitrigg spoke out and tried to dissuade orcs from Garrosh's path. They were arrested and never heard from again. Saurfang didn't agree with anything Garrosh did, but his sense of duty bound him to follow orders. Baine and Vol'jin feared for the safety of their people, knowing exactly how Garrosh treated dissenters. I'd link the quote from Tides of War about Thrall, but you'd just ignore it again.

The ones that didn't care were Sylvanas, Gallywix, and to a lesser extent Lor'themmar. Gallywix was just interested in war profiteering. Sylvanas would do anything to survive and didn't care about anything Garrosh did (good or bad) unless it affected her directly. She only went along with the rebellion because she knew Garrosh was going down and didn't want to be stuck on the wrong side of things. Lor'themmar wasn't happy about Garrosh's direction, but he owed the Horde for saving his people and went along with it so long as his people weren't threatened.

You managed to ignore the whole "What was Thrall doing after his work ended?" question yet again, despite being specifically called out on it, and I'm just plain not interested in repeating myself a fourth, fifth, or sixth time to someone who's clearly just trying to squirm out of a beating.

Because there isn't an answer? We don't know when his work ended. We find him in Durotar, but nothing says how long he has been there. DW defeat to the end of SoO is a year. Thrall was still repairing the Maelstrom after Theramore, which was the beginning of MoP.

Originally, Thrall was supposed to become Warchief again. But as Trassk said, the community kept crying about how much Thrall was in everything. So Blizzard toned down on Thrall and had to build up Vol'jin.

Garrosh became ruler of the Horde legally and officially, and the forces carrying out his crimes were legal units of the Horde military. Attempts to claim that the existence of the Darkspear Revolution somehow absolves the Horde of these crimes are spurious the Darkspear Revolution was commenced in response to Garrosh's moves against his internal political enemies, not in response to his war crimes.

I wonder why they were his political enemies... Could it be because they dissented against his war crimes? Actually, it was before that. They dissented just based on the war itself. They feared for their lives and kept their heads down hoping to avoid Garrosh's wrath until it became clear that they weren't safe no matter what they did.

Attempts to claim that "the Horde" as a political entity doesn't share Garrosh's guilt for his war crimes are laughable.

The fact that Garrosh dealt harshly with dissent does not absolve the Horde. The fact that some of his soldiers felt bad about their actions does not absolve the Horde. Both of these things have been true of even the most heinous and evil dictatorships in history. Furthermore, the fact that former Horde clans Blackrock and Dragonmaw were reintroduced to the Horde and contributed heavily to Garrosh's regime also doesn't really change the situation, since they were in fact made members of the Horde again and served officially under its banner.

I never said they didn't share the guilt. I was showing how they were intimidated and browbeaten into submission.

Claims that these two bedraggled clans gave Garrosh the power to subjugate the other races of the Horde into compliance are insane and idiotic, not only because it paints the rest of the Horde as ridiculously weak,

They were weak. That's why they needed the Alliance to help them.

but because those other races DID REBEL once Garrosh did something that actually motivated them.

And that's the bottom line. The Horde did have the capacity to rebel. We know that, because they did in fact rebel once they felt sufficiently motivated. They just didn't give enough of a shit about Garrosh's war crimes to bother at that point. Garrosh had to move against the other races of the Horde before anyone inside of it was willing to stand up and try to stop him. That isn't courage, or heroism, or redemption, it's self-defense.

Go read Tides of War, it shows that they did care. Go play the Troll starting zone, it shows that they did care. They kept their heads down out of fear until it became clear that they weren't safe no matter what they did. I never said it was courage or heroism or redemption.

Are you talking about the rebellion that would have been crushed within a few days/weeks without Alliance support? That rebellion? Yea they were so capable of rebellion...

Again, they wanted to rebel way back before Pandaria, they just didn't have the opportunity to do so because Garrosh didn't trust any of them and was constantly surrounded by his loyal elite. Varian knew this, that's why he said "The Horde has committed heinous crimes, Vol'jin. But some among you fought against Garrosh's tyranny. For that, I'm willing to end this bloodshed. But know this: if your Horde fails to uphold honor as Garrosh did, we will end you." The Alliance had spies all over Orgrimmar to tell them that Garrosh was using gestapo tactics on the populace. Varian knew that the people were being subjugated by Garrosh and took mercy on them, but only the ones that fought against Garrosh.

[Florena]

We can't really assume they switched to Vol'jin because of complaints. Not everything blizzard says about upcoming story content turns out to be true, for example we were told that Garrosh was going to die in SoO, far too late for them to have simply changed their mind considering how he's being used in WoD. It could easily be that the person who said it was Thrall was either A. misinformed himself, B. saying it was Thrall to throw off their true plans, or C. misspoke.

[Trassk]

We can't really assume they switched to Vol'jin because of complaints. Not everything blizzard says about upcoming story content turns out to be true, for example we were told that Garrosh was going to die in SoO, far too late for them to have simply changed their mind considering how he's being used in WoD. It could easily be that the person who said it was Thrall was either A. misinformed himself, B. saying it was Thrall to throw off their true plans, or C. misspoke.

They admitted it themselves in transparent statements about what they intended to do, and even said they had to change the minds because of fan complaints.

The community fucked over the story, blizzard just responded to the wrong kind of people, again.

[Florena]

They admitted it themselves in transparent statements about what they intended to do, and even said they had to change the minds because of fan complaints.

The community fucked over the story, blizzard just responded to the wrong kind of people, again.

You have a link to them admitting they changed their mind about what to do with Thrall because of complaints? Seems odd to me that for a character they altered plans for because of people being tired of him being overexposed, their solution was to...have him keep appearing and be important. He's still important in 5.1, 5.3 and 5.4, and he's still important in WoD. I might be inclined to agree if Thrall poofed from lore like Med'an but he's still one of the most visible and important horde leaders in MoP and WoD from what we've seen so far.

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Also 5.1 does not count as keeping Thrall out of the main story until the end. Again I'm not complaining about what Thrall has or hasn't done, but to say they cut him out of the story is silly.

[Jessicka]

Jaina wants to destroy the Orcs. And I think WoD is going to force her over the deep end. She's going to try and utterly nuke Draenor, and we'll have to put her down because of some BS reason like "this would also destroy Azeroth."

No she isn't. And that's not what will happen.

The reason she's leader of the Kirin Tor is because Krasus prophesised it to be the best course of action for the Kirin Tor. She didn't want the mantle, nor did the council really, but it was something that had to be. Her future isn't madness and corruption. Really, follow the damn story and forget that stupid blue post from 3 years ago.

[Vargas]

No she isn't. And that's not what will happen.

The reason she's leader of the Kirin Tor is because Krasus prophesised it to be the best course of action for the Kirin Tor. She didn't want the mantle, nor did the council really, but it was something that had to be. Her future isn't madness and corruption. Really, follow the damn story and forget that stupid blue post from 3 years ago.

Dragon prophecies aside, you do realize that is exactly what happened with Garrosh, right? Thrall believed it the best course of action as he believed the Horde needed a war hero to rally behind. Garrosh did not want to be Warchief at all, and none of the other faction leaders thought it was a good idea.

[Trassk]

You have a link to them admitting they changed their mind about what to do with Thrall because of complaints? Seems odd to me that for a character they altered plans for because of people being tired of him being overexposed, their solution was to...have him keep appearing and be important. He's still important in 5.1, 5.3 and 5.4, and he's still important in WoD. I might be inclined to agree if Thrall poofed from lore like Med'an but he's still one of the most visible and important horde leaders in MoP and WoD from what we've seen so far.

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Also 5.1 does not count as keeping Thrall out of the main story until the end. Again I'm not complaining about what Thrall has or hasn't done, but to say they cut him out of the story is silly.

what more proof do you need then looking at the games story itself? Thrall was completely absent in mists opening, not a word of him. and only showing up later in a quest you had to work though rep grinding to see, so few people saw it.

They intentionally did this, because they based there decision on fan reaction, not on integrity.

[Florena]

what more proof do you need then looking at the games story itself? Thrall was completely absent in mists opening, not a word of him. and only showing up later in a quest you had to work though rep grinding to see, so few people saw it.

They intentionally did this, because they based there decision on fan reaction, not on integrity.

It may have been a rep gated quest but it was still an important part of the story. Very few horde/alliance characters actually played a role in 5.0 beyond garrosh/varian sending you into Pandaria. The other H/A characters that came with you were B-grade characters at best, most of them brand new characters. It's not like there was ROOM for Thrall in 5.0.

His placement in 5.1 makes perfect sense. He's chilling with Aggra and Thrall Jr and then shit gets real with Garrosh going after the trolls, so he steps up and realizes he can't let Garrosh be any longer. Nothing about that is out of place or against Thrall's character as of Tides of War. Wasn't Thrall's appearance in the story shortly after the Dagger in the Dark scenario anyway? I don't think it was far into it like the purge of dalaran or the ending with Anduin but I could be mistaken.

[rowaasr13]

What are you talking about? Blizzard themselves have said the ending of Mists is about as close to total victory the Alliance is ever going to be, it can't get better than that basically. You sieged the enemy capital city and defeated their Warchief, what more do you want? Hell, you people are never satisfied. Mists is about as Alliance centric as it can be, you're the heroes and winners of the war.

I'd personally would want every green alien jump back into their stargate and GTFO our planet. They'll even it pointing to pristine Draenor soon. Orcs, go home!

[Trassk]

I'd personally would want every green alien jump back into their stargate and GTFO our planet. They'll even it pointing to pristine Draenor soon. Orcs, go home!

LOL.

And the trolls, tauren, goblins, blood elves, forsaken, every other member of the horde. Many of them have been around longer then any humans in lore, so alliance don't have any say in what the story should be about, such.. pathetic bias.

[Deleted]

LOL.

And the trolls, tauren, goblins, blood elves, forsaken, every other member of the horde. Many of them have been around longer then any humans in lore, so alliance don't have any say in what the story should be about, such.. pathetic bias.

Weeeell, he only said Orcs to go home, which is Orgrimmar? And the others are already home.




On the note, no I don't want to see Jaina turn into a boss or corrupted thingy-dingy, that would just be horrible and waste of another good character, and seem to going that way anyways. They could as well make Thrall do a 180, would make as much sense, just as bad.

[rcshaggy]

Can't wait to do something about her, because her private time with Kalec is turning her quite insane. :P

Would be nice if we actually seen Kul Tiras to and her being forced out of the Kirin Tor and having to recruit her father's people, she would be brought down or even exiled from them.