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  1. #1

    Question Why bring a DK DPS to a 10 man group?

    Why bring a DK DPS to a 10 man group?
    I am a raid leader / guild master of a 6/14 HC 10 man group and i'm contemplating how I want my group to look like for the next tier. The class it self is subject to change in the next expension of course, but based on the state of DKs now, what are the benefits of a dk dps in a 10 man group? Instead of for example, rogue/warrior.

    We don't have a dk dps in our group atm and never have so im curious as to what they bring.

  2. #2
    battleres10chars

  3. #3
    1. extra dps over raid
    2. AMZ
    3. high dps
    4. CC when specced into RW
    dk's aint that bad
    Same Shit Different Day

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldarian View Post
    2. AMZ
    3. high dps
    DK has one of the lowest DPS and worst raidsupport.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Givemount View Post
    battleres10chars
    Boomie/wlock/hunter



    Quote Originally Posted by Coldarian View Post
    1. extra dps over raid
    2. AMZ
    3. high dps
    4. CC when specced into RW
    dk's aint that bad
    1. ?
    2. AMZ > demo banner/smoke bomb?
    3. dps > utility?

    You would have to bring extra ordinary dps to compensate for lack of raid utility. Do dks bring that?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kjeeves View Post
    Why bring a DK DPS to a 10 man group?
    I am a raid leader / guild master of a 6/14 HC 10 man group and i'm contemplating how I want my group to look like for the next tier. The class it self is subject to change in the next expension of course, but based on the state of DKs now, what are the benefits of a dk dps in a 10 man group? Instead of for example, rogue/warrior.

    We don't have a dk dps in our group atm and never have so im curious as to what they bring.

    I understand what you are thinking about but let me tell you with all honesty that unless you are aiming for top100 in the world, quite honestly bring the people who are most competent and forget about its class. Unless in extreme cases like if you have someone playing a very underpowered spec just for kicks, or you already have way too much people insisting on playing the same spec/role/class.

    I hope you don't think this is an abusive answer and just something that realy doesn't help you at all, but as far as my experience goes as an officer a reliable/smart/competent player is the most valuable asset you can have, much more than nit-picking a class/spec and then trying to get a person better at its role. And, a lot of times even if you have a very good recruitment process, the human behavior is quite unreliable by default even in top heroic guilds in the world.


    Hopefuly as more people understand that a solid and strong group is formed by a 10 competent players and 1 good leader and specific specs are secondary, the more guilds will have sucess and most of all more fun.


    cheers

  7. #7
    While not super amazing for this tier, gorefiend's grasp and death grip are both (situationally) very good.

    Their DPS is pretty low at the moment, but you asked specifically for next expansion. Planning a raid group for next expansion based on current information isn't going to work too well. DPS between classes will differ greatly compared to current levels and I picture quite a bit of utility changing as well. At this point, it would be best trying to make a balanced raid with the best *players* that you can find.

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldarian View Post
    1. extra dps over raid
    2. AMZ
    3. high dps
    4. CC when specced into RW
    dk's aint that bad
    Everything here.

    I've saved our raid on Nazgrim with Remorseless Winter freezing shamans at 10% wave. I've switched to blood and played bomb monkey on Iron Juggernaut. Asphyxiate is fantastic for bonecrushers and shamans on Galakras. We're really good with AMZ on Norushen.

    We bring good utility, and, when played well, comparable dps to other melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    DK has one of the lowest DPS and worst raidsupport.
    You don't know anything about DK's in this tier, then, if you feel we have no raid support



  9. #9
    -We bring 10% attack power, 10% attack speed and 4% physical damage. Not necessarily unique but if you need these buffs, consider a DK.
    -battle rez
    -good dps
    -AMZ is a great, but situational, raid cd.
    -More durable than most melee
    -Death Grip and AoE grip are amazing. I feel I must emphasize this point.
    No other class has this amazing kind of utility. You are a 10 man raider so here is the applications that I've used it on so far. This tier alone I've gotten more use out of death grip for boss encounters than most other tiers combined.

    Death grip is amazing for:
    Sha of Pride manifestations
    Galakras Grunts attacking crew
    Basically any add on Nazgrim, especially the warshaman.
    Malkorok heroic only add

    AoE grip is amazing for:
    Grouping Sha of pride reflections
    Galakras add grouping
    Dark Shaman ooze repositioning
    Nazgrim add repositioning
    Grouping bats on Thok Heroic
    Siegecrafter Crawler Mine grouping.
    Garrosh Iron Star gripping

  10. #10
    Certain abilities can be very useful on multiple encounters;

    1) death grip (heroic Malkorok, Sha, etc). Not a NECESSITY, but very useful and can significantly ease certain encounters
    2) Gorefiends Grasp. Similar to DG in its unique advantages
    3) AMZ. Few encounters can take advantage since it requires the raid to stack up, but can be a big bonus when applicable.
    4) Very good burst AOE with frost, decent sustained AOE with unholy

    To be honest, other than the 2 grip mechanics we don't have anything that is indispensable, and we don't have the damage reduction CDs of a rogue, warlock or shadow priest. Our damage output is okay, but worse than rogue and warrior. Unfortunately both rogues and warriors bring equally useful raid abilities such as smokebomb, Cloak of Shadows soaking (Malkorok orbs, etc), Demo/Skull banner, rallying cry, vigilance, intervene, etc. Of course ranged DPS would be better, but if you are looking for a melee and already have a rogue and warrior a DPS DK can be useful, but outside of the grips (and if you have a blood tank a second set of grips isn't all that userful, unlike warrior banners) I think you could probably do without one.

  11. #11
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    Please dont forget about grip or aoe grip, especially on heroic fights like immerseus (for adds), sha of pride, galakras, nazgrim, Siegecrafter, Garrosh).

    DKs have nice soak ability with their AMS. AMZ is a nice cd again.

    They have really good ranged aoe.
    But if i had to choose 1 melee for my group i would go with a rogue. For the second melee i would think of dk/warrior depending on raid composition/tokens/having combat rez.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kjeeves View Post
    The class it self is subject to change in the next expension of course,
    Change? Like how Frost has been pretty much the same since Wotlk and also Unholy since Pre-Cata? (:

    Blizz y u hate us

  13. #13
    I also wanted to note, there are some encounters where Dark Simulc can be used in a helpful manner, say garrosh for chain lightning, galakras the shamans tidal wave, on dark shamans the blast from kardriss.

    There are a lot of good notes here about the different situational things we have, as well as raid cds, but I think we have some uniqueness such as stealing abilities from boss/ads/players, that can benefit the raid overall.

  14. #14
    Well... there is no special reason do bring one - i mean, as 9/14 i do not remember any fights requiring a dps DK in fight.
    Of course, there is no special reason to not bring one. So, IMHO, if you do not have one right now, you do not need one either. Next expansion? No one knows
    and i tought that Karel Gott is all the czech got:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39_1fUkxfZ0&feature=related

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    Certain abilities can be very useful on multiple encounters;

    1) death grip (heroic Malkorok, Sha, etc). Not a NECESSITY, but very useful and can significantly ease certain encounters
    2) Gorefiends Grasp. Similar to DG in its unique advantages
    3) AMZ. Few encounters can take advantage since it requires the raid to stack up, but can be a big bonus when applicable.
    4) Very good burst AOE with frost, decent sustained AOE with unholy

    To be honest, other than the 2 grip mechanics we don't have anything that is indispensable, and we don't have the damage reduction CDs of a rogue, warlock or shadow priest. Our damage output is okay, but worse than rogue and warrior. Unfortunately both rogues and warriors bring equally useful raid abilities such as smokebomb, Cloak of Shadows soaking (Malkorok orbs, etc), Demo/Skull banner, rallying cry, vigilance, intervene, etc. Of course ranged DPS would be better, but if you are looking for a melee and already have a rogue and warrior a DPS DK can be useful, but outside of the grips (and if you have a blood tank a second set of grips isn't all that userful, unlike warrior banners) I think you could probably do without one.
    I completely agree with grip and AoE grip but using cc for adds on nazgrim isnt really something special a dk can do.
    The main reason i'm asking this is because we are 10 man, this is much easier to decide if u are 25 man and can afford more class diversity but in 10 man I think you need to compare classes more especially melee since ranged is usually more benefitial, for example dark shaman heroic.

  16. #16
    Same reasons you'd bring a WW Monk... there's none, other than you being better than something else, who's utility isnt needed. Out of all melees, I just want warriors and rogues in my 10 man group.

    Another plate class (or leather in the case of monks) would be bad, if you already have leather/plate wearing dps or tanks.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  17. #17
    1 easy reason, because they are a great players and\or they are great to raid with. I don't see how anyone can try and plan for the next Xpac's tier. DK's could be godly as far as we know. Bring the better player, not the class. Unless of course you're going for world first.

  18. #18
    Reasons to bring the DK dps:
    you need a 10th good player for the last slot
    you need someone to take the str plate drops
    all the other reasons listed above in prior posts.

    Really the most important factor is: who is in the chair? I'll take a good player on a dk over a mediocre/sub par player on a rogue/warrior anyday.

  19. #19
    Grip seems legit if you're melee heavy since running can severely lower DPS.
    BR seems useful. If you only have a Druid for instance and he dies. You have a backup BR.
    You may also want to consider what tier token they are on. Depending on the rest of your group, the DK may crowd their token or maybe they can soak up tokens. This also goes with gear in general. If you don't have a plate DPS class, that might be a way to go.
    Ret Paladin
    10/14H T16

  20. #20
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    Death Knights are certainly not as bad as some people have been making out. I quite like bringing one!

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