Anyone else Disappointed with our end game DPS?

[nightfalls]

I'm a fan of having multiple dps specs because then you aren't completely screwed when one of your specs is bad.

It goes both ways, you also get a perception (having sat on the other side of the fence before) that classes with 1 spec tend to get extra attention to make sure it's always "good" or at least "usable" - both perceptions aren't true 100% of the time though. Warlocks much of this expansion have been an exception, as in they've had 3 that are all usually high end (so even though it might not be better than all other classes, it's still up there, with the top spec actually being "top")

Also, nerfing dot snapshotting doesn't affect the average players as much as the top players, because the average players don't benefit from it as much as they could. It's not really important either way, many of the specs that are better than ours don't use dot snapshotting, it's just a gameplay change for those that do.

Oh, but it can lower the gap between other classes, in other words outliers such as warlocks will have their top players nerfed (with it removed) but average players less affected. If I just went out and was like "All warlock dots -20%" it might reduce the top players back in line but you'd have a lot of dissatisfied PvPers and average players who are now total shit.

[Skarssen]

I'm not sure how I feel about the 1 "viable" spec thing. On one hand, it would be much better for overall balance if classes with multiple DPS specs had one designated for PVE and one for PVP, but what if you don't PVE/PVP and your favorite spec is relegated to that which you don't play? That isn't fun either. I can't stand unholy and will never play it in its current incarnation, so I would be pretty pissed if all of a sudden frost was PVP only and unholy PVE only.

On the other hand, only having 1 DPS spec means that Blizzard is more likely to make it work in PVE......but you have to actually like playing the spec. Shadow is currently weak, but it has been pretty good up until recently. Ret is always a rollercoaster, but at least it is usually viable.

[Gabbynator]

the problem is the warrior hotfix buff they bring warrior close to mage why???mage have no raid cds when warrior have 3 raid cds.

my logic is warrior and dk should do the same dps bis gears

[Shiira]

Mages having low utility is its own problem, but warrior utility is definitely too high.

[bals]

the problem is the warrior hotfix buff they bring warrior close to mage why???mage have no raid cds when warrior have 3 raid cds.

my logic is warrior and dk should do the same dps bis gears

mages have bloodlust

[Dossou]

DK always falls off during the last tier of an expansion. It's a recurring trend due to poor scaling with secondary stats, though some items have kept us decent enough through that, like Gurthalak or Shadowmourne. Its not like this is the first time, but its not like we're bad enough to be unviable. The problem with this though, is that there's litte incentive to bring DK's into a raid unless you need grips, since that's basically the only utility we bring outside of some rare uses of chilblains (this is apparent in 10-man).

But then again, hardly any people play in a guild where the dps meters are in order with class balance. There's always so much player skill and gear involved that you'll end up in very different places on dps meters depending on which guild you play in, which gives people different impressions on how we fare at the moment. For example on malkorok I topped dps in our raid, which from my perspective would make my class look pretty good on it, but I still would only have beat 2 classes (maybe hunter and sp is a given) and been close to last in dps if we had all the top players of different classes gathered in our raid. DK's just need to find an environment where they do well, I guess? But meh, come WoD and we'll be pretty good again if we scale the same way we've done until now.

By that logic there's little incentive to bring mages, hunters, shadowpriests, or ele shamans over warlocks

edit: You've also been one of the top parsing DKs for multiple tiers
People comparing their DPS to their raid is kind of irrelevant IMO

[Shiira]

If you could just take the utility you need then bring nothing but the strongest 2-3 specs you would, you don't because taking something else and actually having gear to give them is better than having a load of potentially more powerful characters that are forever undergeared.

[epLe]

People comparing their DPS to their raid is kind of irrelevant IMO

Can really only see any reason to compare my dps in endgame, to what my dps was before the endgame (pre 4.2).

And yes Im very happy with how my death knights dps has scaled both as frost and blood.

[Kronik85]

edit: You've also been one of the top parsing DKs for multiple tiers
People comparing their DPS to their raid is kind of irrelevant IMO

Can't use own personal experience, too subjective. Can't use top parses, not representative of the class as a whole. Can't use Raidbots, everyone's doing it wrong. Can't use Simcraft, not accurate enough. Can't use WoL, too much cheesing.

Threads getting lost in it's own pedantry.

[Maxweii]

Can't use own personal experience, too subjective. Can't use top parses, not representative of the class as a whole. Can't use Raidbots, everyone's doing it wrong. Can't use Simcraft, not accurate enough. Can't use WoL, too much cheesing.

Threads getting lost in it's own pedantry.

I gave up pages ago since it was a lost cause from the start once people got so mad over it. Why it got to 15 pages, no clue

[Darkfriend]

mages have bloodlust

So do BM hunters, shamans, and now there are drums, so lust isn't a huge buff that only mages bring.

[bals]

So do BM hunters, shamans, and now there are drums, so lust isn't a huge buff that only mages bring.

raid cooldown.

[Darkfriend]

potatoe, potatoe.

[Kronik85]

I gave up pages ago since it was a lost cause from the start once people got so mad over it. Why it got to 15 pages, no clue

Think you might be on to something there lol......6 month's of this conversation though? Uggggghhh, count me out.

[Lamperouqe]

By that logic there's little incentive to bring mages, hunters, shadowpriests, or ele shamans over warlocks

edit: You've also been one of the top parsing DKs for multiple tiers
People comparing their DPS to their raid is kind of irrelevant IMO

Yes, but in the end you wouldn't replace the mage with the lock, you'd do it with the lowest performing class unless you had an endless supply of geared warlocks. This is why you can't think that way, in reality the only ones in danger of being benched are the ones performing the worst while bringing close to nothing to the raid. As a DK, you need to outperform or outgear people in your raid to secure a spot on the bosses that don't need mass grip.

And yes, comparing dps to your own raid is irrelevant in terms of class balance. I was just pointing this out to people who claim that DK is actually good based on how they do in their raids by making an example of topping dps in a raid while actually not performing very well at all comparing to the top parses of other classes.

[Deleted]

Yes, but in the end you wouldn't replace the mage with the lock, you'd do it with the lowest performing class unless you had an endless supply of geared warlocks. This is why you can't think that way, in reality the only ones in danger of being benched are the ones performing the worst while bringing close to nothing to the raid. As a DK, you need to outperform or outgear people in your raid to secure a spot on the bosses that don't need mass grip.

And yes, comparing dps to your own raid is irrelevant in terms of class balance. I was just pointing this out to people who claim that DK is actually good based on how they do in their raids by making an example of topping dps in a raid while actually not performing very well at all comparing to the top parses of other classes.

People that says that it doesnt matter if you are a DK or someother class in raids havent got a clue about end game raiding. If you ever wiped on 0,1% or even closer because of a new HC boss Enrage dont come to me and say that you dont take the highest classes for dps. In argue you can start and say that well we have utility and thats not even a argue anymore. I cant remeber any fight that you had to have a DK or the fight got so much harder whithout a DK.

If people havent taken any HC bosses or just a few of them they probably wont discover the problem we have. I can understand that some people say that DK are fine. I use to totaly destroy Everything in senario, dungouns etc in flex (Pug)raids im usually always first on DPS WHY because my ILV is way higher than the other ones. If they had same ILV and same BIS Trinkets, set bonus they would probably out dps me all day long (Of course skill matters here no argue... i see it as equal skill and same ILV, gear etc.).

If blizzard wants a balance in raids and balance it round Normal raids well then we probably are in middle of the pack. But if you balance us around HC fights we probably are last with shadowprisets. Hunters also looks pretty weak atleast what i feel in our raids. If people Thinks its ok to be last or second last on most bosses with a few percent well dont complain be happy and play DK. But if you get disturbed to see the top DPS classes beat you with like 15-20% every fight well tell Blizzard to to something or just change class.

[Disinvolto]

I can't tell if this is serious because everything I see says 2H frost DKs are the best DPS in the game at the moment. I could be completely getting bad information though. (Looking at DPS data from Noxxic)

[bals]

I could be completely getting bad information though. (Looking at DPS data from Noxxic)

yes you are.

[Deleted]

noxxic... thanks for the chuckle

[Disinvolto]

yes you are.

Ah, then where is the best/recommended place these days for spec / stat, rotation and gear info?