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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa of Carthage View Post
    Have you ever tried looking at the crystal ball called "What other OECD Countries have done"?



    I wonder what those hippie communist socialist liberal scum European countries have in common...
    that is fine and dandy if you want to be a well fed sheep but I rather be free and have that chance to make more then just being above the poverty level

  2. #102
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    How about pretty much anything out of Switzerland? Their willingness to adopt GMIs, embrace private insurance (the ACA seems modeled from the Swiss) and such? All while rejecting comprehensive and broad welfare programs?

    There are few countries that run as well as Switzerland... but no one pays them attention because they're too far right for the progressives and too close to the center for the conservatives.
    How about this country?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa of Carthage View Post
    That's very nice and cool in Republican magical lala land. But here in the real world, $2.3 trillion dollars in 2013 terms is not pocket change. Especially not when it happened during your "biggest economic growth this century". And you seem to have weird definition of the word "century" as well. Just more inconvenient facts for you to ignore, no doubt.
    caused by reganomics Clinton road on the coat tails of the policies put in place by Reagan Clinton was to the right when it came to economics he was forced to balance the budget, reform welfare, and he signed the defense of marriage act was more republican then he was democrat
    so keep championing Clinton because you are championing republican ideology when you do
    Last edited by Vyxn; 2013-12-02 at 03:57 PM.

  4. #104
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    caused by reganomics Clinton road on the coat tails of the policies put in place by Reagan
    Yeah because there wasn't a President in between the two or anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    How about this country?
    What about it?

    I'm frankly never quite sure which dead horse you're beating at any given time.

  6. #106
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    What about it?

    I'm frankly never quite sure which dead horse you're beating at any given time.
    I thought we were making observations on this country, and not some other one with a tenuous-at-very-best comparison to our own. Forgive me if I was mistaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  7. #107
    If the Federal Government made annual debt repayments of USD 500,000,000,000, it would still take them about thirty six years to pay the whole thing off... counting on deficit elimination of course.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Because the biggest economic expansion in all recent times didn't occur under Clinton, or anything like that.
    I'm not sure it would have mattered who sat in the White House with the dot com bubble. Also, Republicans controlled Congress. Clinton didn't operate with impunity.

  9. #109
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    that is fine and dandy if you want to be a well fed sheep but I rather be free and have that chance to make more then just being above the poverty level
    Could you elaborate? I'm not sure which jab you're trying to make with "well fed sheep."

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly Willy View Post
    Could you elaborate? I'm not sure which jab you're trying to make with "well fed sheep."
    People with decent jobs who don't realize our country is run by foreign banks, and probably wouldn't care if they did know.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    that is fine and dandy if you want to be a well fed sheep but I rather be free and have that chance to make more then just being above the poverty level
    So you admit that you support intentionally sabotaging the war on poverty. Just so you can then attack the Democrats for trying to reduce poverty unsuccessfully.

    You don't have any more freedom than Europeans. You probably have less on account of how incredibly misinformed you are by your preferred media.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    caused by reganomics Clinton
    By this logic...

    The bad economy under Obama is caused by Reaganomics. Which, ironically, turns out to be the truth.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Valerean View Post
    If the Federal Government made annual debt repayments of USD 500,000,000,000, it would still take them about thirty six years to pay the whole thing off... counting on deficit elimination of course.
    it doesn't matter to the left they live in the Obama lunch line where it is always the one behind you that is responsible to pay for your meal

  13. #113
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    it doesn't matter to the left the live in the Obama lunch line where it is always the one behind you that is responsible to pay for your meal
    This is priceless.

    You know, considering it's far from fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyxn View Post
    it doesn't matter to the left they live in the Obama lunch line where it is always the one behind you that is responsible to pay for your meal
    Just another form of socialism.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    This is priceless.

    You know, considering it's far from fact.
    Detroit did fine under democrats.

  15. #115
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    Just another form of socialism.
    Have an image that explains my rebuttal better than I.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    I hope you didn't wake up and turn on the light provided by power companies heavily regulated by the government, and drive out on those roads funded by tax payers and maintained by the state to drop your kids off at that public school.
    I did but I work off the books.

  17. #117
    Well, back to the OP:
    Running oil and gas isn't a good idea. Flooding the market so the prices drop is a terrible idea as they'll drop EVERYWHERE. Which just means more inertia against climate change EVERYWHERE. You can tax the oil as it comes out though. That could produce some money.

    In terms of where the 16 trillion came from. Well, 4-4.5 was bush tax cuts which didn't have a noticeable impact on the economy (Bush had lower growth than Clinton) and were largely for the wealthy. The Iraq/Afghan wars, which had NO funding mechanisms are expected to have a cost of 4-6 trillion dollars once you add up all the soldier long term expenses. Medicare Part D was also unfunded with a cost of 1 trillion over 10 years (we are 8 years in). Every year of the bush term after the tax cuts was deficit. And yet the wars and Medicare Part D got tackled onto them without any cost.
    Overall, at least 9 trillion dollars of the 16 trillion dollars in debt came from Bush Jr's unfunded policies.

    We probably will never pay off the debt, the key isn't paying the debt off completely but keeping it at a level that the government can sustain at. That being said, we should run neutral/surplus when we aren't going through the worst recession since the Great Recession. So that we can use stimulus when we do have a Recession. One thing that anyone with eyes and a newspaper can see is that austerity during a recession really makes the recession worse (look at Greece).

  18. #118
    Dreadlord Bumbasta's Avatar
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    US debt will never be payed back. The only thing possible is that the system will collapse at some point.
    "This is no swaggering askari, no Idi Amin Dada, heavyweight boxing champion of the King's African Rifles, nor some wide shouldered, medal-strewn Nigerian general. This is an altogether more dangerous dictator - an intellectual, a spitefull African Robespierre who has outlasted them all." - The Fear: Robert Mugabe and the martyrdom of Zimbabwe, Peter Godwin.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly Willy View Post
    Could you elaborate? I'm not sure which jab you're trying to make with "well fed sheep."
    Socialism – increases the power of the well connected, provides a welfare state to
    those in poverty, provides an entitlement state to those near poverty, and penalizes
    upward economic mobility. Therefore, Socialism perpetuates social classes, it
    maintains elitism (power and riches for the connected), inhibits economic mobility
    for the middle class through high taxation and regulation, and provides a welfare
    state for those in poverty.

    Capitalism – increases the wealth of those who provide labor, goods, or services
    that are in high demand. Capitalism doesn’t discriminate who makes the products
    and services; rather, the decision is made by consumers (you). Therefore,
    economic mobility is encouraged by Capitalism; it doesn’t matter who you are
    connected to, where you grew up, or the color of your skin. All that matters in
    Capitalism is that you are able to provide labor, goods, or services that are in
    demand from the consumer, and you will create wealth.

    Socialism – taxes income not wealth. It also taxes punitively, the more income you
    make, the higher the rate at which you are taxed (please tell me socialists how this
    does not discourage upward economic mobility). Therefore, those with wealth are
    hardly taxed; those becoming wealthy are the targeted enemy. The status quo is
    guaranteed through Socialism and the wealthy and connected stay wealthy and
    connected, while the poor and nearly poor are bought off with the money created
    by those on their way to wealth. Those on the way to wealth are the most efficient
    people in our economy, typically small businesses becoming medium to large
    businesses. They are the job creators. They are the companies that improve our
    lifestyles through innovation and efficiency. However, they are the enemy of
    Socialism. This is why Socialism is so destructive.

    Capitalism – discourages taxes at all. Capitalism rewards, not wealth, but wealth
    creation. Economic freedom and mobility is the basis for Capitalism. Capitalism
    rewards those who provide labor, goods, and services that the consumer wants and
    needs and punishes those that do not. It is pretty simple.

    Socialism = oppression = slavery
    Capitalism = freedom = opportunity
    You choose. I’ve made my decision.

    http://www.freedomthoughts.com/resources/Socialism.pdf

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    I thought we were making observations on this country, and not some other one with a tenuous-at-very-best comparison to our own. Forgive me if I was mistaken.
    I thought you were asking which right-side policies would work that weren't rooted in decades of "failed economics".

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