Since we are going to get nerfed next expansion..

[Jessicka]

Subjective, of course.

But where is the fun in turret casting? Or some of you think that devs don't take fun in consideration as a valid argument?

The goal is that every spec will have something fun to do while moving, and that the best players will excell either way. Exactly like KJC and AV is right now. AV is clearly a dps gain if used right, much more than a simple extra charge as stated. Timing is key.

Also, Turret is only fun when it is worth it (CB style, high risk high reward).
This limits encounters much more than moving while casting (instants, non instants, whatever)

Not sure how carrying on as normal can be described as something fun to do while moving, it's just carrying on as normal. This is what I mean when I describe it as being fun because its new and a therefore a novelty as by definition moving and while casting is not doing anything different while moving so long as it isn't a great exception to normal. By contrast, I do feel a certain satisfaction when I'm able to get from one end of the encounter area to the other on moving during globals knowing I've lost no damage at all.

[Baconeggcheese]

Massively subjective territory you're treading there.

What people find fun is what people find fun.

[evertonbelmontt]

Massively subjective territory you're treading there.

What people find fun is what people find fun.

I'm just guessing that after 7 years of old style, MoP refreshed the way caster generally feels, and by the forums I got the impression people liked it better even if it's a (minor, per say) dps loss..

I don't have a source for this obviously, I don't work at blizz, but that's my impression when I see locks running KJC on protectors as afflc or asking desperately for it to stay, even if nerfed, they want options, or some want to be bad, like others would say. Maybe for blizzard that's ok because would not cause imbalance problems and not 99% of player base would pick it.

Well, it's all personal opinion. Out of curiosity, anyone has an acurate data from t6 talent row? I could find one but can't tell which is accurate or not. Ty!

[Jessicka]

Massively subjective territory you're treading there.

What people find fun is what people find fun.

While I don't doubt there are those who find move-casting fun for its own sake, I get a strong impression that for a great many the reason they like it is because it breaks convention.

I'm just guessing that after 7 years of old style, MoP refreshed the way caster generally feels, and by the forums I got the impression people liked it better even if it's a (minor, per say) dps loss..

I don't have a source for this obviously, I don't work at blizz, but that's my impression when I see locks running KJC on protectors as afflc or asking desperately for it to stay, even if nerfed, they want options, or some want to be bad, like others would say. Maybe for blizzard that's ok because would not cause imbalance problems and not 99% of player base would pick it.

Well, it's all personal opinion. Out of curiosity, anyone has an acurate data from t6 talent row? I could find one but can't tell which is accurate or not. Ty!

This isn't a caster-wide thing. I still have to switch to Scorch from my normal rotation on my Fire Mage to move, and god forbid any GTFO mechanic should happen during Invocation. As for moving on Shadow Priest, there are times when there is literally nothing available to be done even when specced FDCL for Mind Spike procs. Warlock mobility through KJC is very exceptional.

I think the notional DPS loss for extra mobility is a design Blizz are okay with, it's there in our talent tree and I noticed a couple of other classes are getting similar trade-offs on the level 100 talent rows. I don't think that KJC against AD really has that balance quite right though, as all our specs spend a lot of time chain casting the filler spells that KJC covers.

[evertonbelmontt]

While I don't doubt there are those who find move-casting fun for its own sake, I get a strong impression that for a great many the reason they like it is because it breaks convention.


This isn't a caster-wide thing. I still have to switch to Scorch from my normal rotation on my Fire Mage to move, and god forbid any GTFO mechanic should happen during Invocation. As for moving on Shadow Priest, there are times when there is literally nothing available to be done even when specced FDCL for Mind Spike procs. Warlock mobility through KJC is very exceptional.

I think the notional DPS loss for extra mobility is a design Blizz are okay with, it's there in our talent tree and I noticed a couple of other classes are getting similar trade-offs on the level 100 talent rows. I don't think that KJC against AD really has that balance quite right though, as all our specs spend a lot of time chain casting the filler spells that KJC covers.

Shadow priest are the exception this tier, I think.

Talked to a friend of mine and he said that his mage has so many procs/fun things to do with all his toolkit (alter time seems to be 90% of it, because he talked nonstop about it lol) that he barely needs to stand still and cast compared to cata and before. If this is not enough, I can create a topic on mage forum just to know what people think about it. MoP changed playstyle for caster by all means, and how it feels. Not only with casting, but interrupts/CC's and variety (new class mecanics, options, etc).

And invocation is one of the turret spells that work, high reward high risk, but not even close to CB (CB's are fired much more than Invocations are cast, and you react to procs, not something you can plan much ahead instead of invocation). Blizzard intends to put more spells like this, not the default Shadowbolt from demonology (that sucks from the start to the middle/end of exp)

[Raiju]

There are many games that don't have turret casters, and the boss fights are engaging.

Having to doge things while preforming your rotation properly and responding to procs is quite rewarding.

Having to doge things while not being able to move is not so much fun after 6+ years. I understand that there would be balance consequences to our damage if mobility was increased (like hunters) but it seems like KJC is an acceptable option in it's current form.

I understand what you are saying Jess but how can you not at least understand (not agree) with the other side of the coin.

Much Analysis
Very Experience
Wow.

OT: I think a few of you are getting lost in pedanticism(?) while the argument holds even among different little technicalities

[Grizelda]

I don't understand your comment.

I spelled Dodge wrong?


O.K.

[Jessicka]

Shadow priest are the exception this tier, I think.

Talked to a friend of mine and he said that his mage has so many procs/fun things to do with all his toolkit (alter time seems to be 90% of it, because he talked nonstop about it lol) that he barely needs to stand still and cast compared to cata and before. If this is not enough, I can create a topic on mage forum just to know what people think about it. MoP changed playstyle for caster by all means, and how it feels. Not only with casting, but interrupts/CC's and variety (new class mecanics, options, etc).

And invocation is one of the turret spells that work, high reward high risk, but not even close to CB (CB's are fired much more than Invocations are cast, and you react to procs, not something you can plan much ahead instead of invocation). Blizzard intends to put more spells like this, not the default Shadowbolt from demonology (that sucks from the start to the middle/end of exp)

Shadow Priest is only really an exception because snapshots prevent proper use of SW:Pain during movement in the same way we should be using Fel Flame or Fire Mages use Scorch.

I don't feel like Alter Time is all that, it's a 3 minute cooldown which is mostly used as a DPS boost; doesn't really offer much in terms of mobility. It's certainly no Blink, and overall neither of those specs feel radically different to how they did during Cataclysm. Mages have always had good mobility thanks to Blink and a lot of procs and instants, but they still require a decent amount of time turreting.

Invocation is just about maintaining a buff, it's not exactly exciting and can still cost a bunch of trinket proc time; and the spec will still be casting a lot of 'rubbish' Fire Bolts from the beginning to the end of the game.

[Baconeggcheese]

I don't understand your comment.

I spelled Dodge wrong?


O.K.

Its a meme he's quoting.

[Raiju]

I don't understand your comment.

I spelled Dodge wrong?


O.K.

As above. I wasn't sure if it was intentional given your canine avatar.

[Weep]

I love destro but I do miss raiding affliction. I'd like to see that buffed a bit. Never liked demo, but that's just me.

[Baconeggcheese]

There's a bunch of fights this tier where aff is competitive with destruction if you ever feel like playing aff.

Aff only falls off on the longer fights, everything else it keeps up and will do more or less depending on your raid / job.

[Lumikor]

I don't think we'll get any nerfs.

[Deleted]

well the removal of snapshotting is technically a nerf but afaik they also said afflic would be balanced around not having snapshotting anymore.

[Rayaleith]

From first page

Why bring a hunter over a warlock? Less DPS, Less utility, less AoE, less survivability. Any extra utility in WoD for hunters?
What you just described is a problem with Warlocks, not Hunters.

We are fucked...

[Grizelda]

What a dick he is to just drop that and let us stew for 5+ months.

Just give some other class a means to set up gates (which only work half the time) so the QQ will end.

[purebalance]

The only other item I personally think will get nerfed is resources gained from dying adds for destruction and affliction. Any fight those 2 specs have been able to use those mechanics this expansion has been fights locks have been on top by miles. At a minimum, I think destruction will go back to the original intention of only getting 1 ember back from SBing a dying add and affliction will go to like 1 or 2 shards from DSing a dying add. Our resources are extremely potent and when we are able to spam resource consumers we are insanely OP.

This. Once Dark Shamans gets the poison totems it's like shadow burn chaos bolt havoc full embers the whole time.

- - - Updated - - -

I love destro but I do miss raiding affliction. I'd like to see that buffed a bit. Never liked demo, but that's just me.

I hated having to go demo for maloriak but it produced some numbers.

- - - Updated - - -

Shadow Priest is only really an exception because snapshots prevent proper use of SW:Pain during movement in the same way we should be using Fel Flame or Fire Mages use Scorch.

I don't feel like Alter Time is all that, it's a 3 minute cooldown which is mostly used as a DPS boost; doesn't really offer much in terms of mobility. It's certainly no Blink, and overall neither of those specs feel radically different to how they did during Cataclysm. Mages have always had good mobility thanks to Blink and a lot of procs and instants, but they still require a decent amount of time turreting.

Invocation is just about maintaining a buff, it's not exactly exciting and can still cost a bunch of trinket proc time; and the spec will still be casting a lot of 'rubbish' Fire Bolts from the beginning to the end of the game.

The problem is shadow priests act like the only on the move spell they have is sw and that you move for 30 minutes at a time. SW is castable on the move, procs for instant mb's is castable on the move, halo is castable on the move, DP is castable on the move.

[Baconeggcheese]

Somehow I imagine they'll look at actual figures before just dickstomping warlocks with the way you guys are thinking.

I mean the guy doing the questioning acts like hunters don't have traps, and aren't competitive single target with their own little tricks. Bring any buff to raid.

Whens the last time a warlock feign death'd to avoid a mechanic? How can a warlock slow or stun adds like mines in siegecrafter that are rapidly dying and spawning new ones? Whens the last time a warlock misdirected anything to anyone? Not to mention hunters wear mail agi, the 2nd most de'd loot type after int plate due to lack of need.

I'm betting that guy is a hunter in a subpar raiding environment that values warlocks over hunters because they don't know how to use classes to their full potential and view overall meter padding as effective dps.

[D4n13le]

The problem is shadow priests act like the only on the move spell they have is sw and that you move for 30 minutes at a time. SW is castable on the move, procs for instant mb's is castable on the move, halo is castable on the move, DP is castable on the move.

SW: D it's an execute and you're pretty much forced to double tap it on CD, it's not like you can save it.
Halo has 40s cd and to be meaningful requires you to be at an exact range from the boss (and btw Halo is often used to help healers, using it "because you have to move" = wasting it).
DP can't be delayed, and with SW:I as t45 (best single target choice 90% of the times) just after DP you have to stand still for 8 sec.
Instant MBs are pretty much the same as DP as SW: D, delaying them is a huge dps loss (so you can't save them).
Instant MSs are decent, but you lose SW:I to spec for them (ST dps loss) and they stack to 2 (and keeping them at 2 stacks is a dps loss).

I can't see how SPriests dps while moving is decent compared to locks who have portals, gateways and (if specced) can cast their main filler while moving.
And it's not like spriests do more dps.. locks are superior both in ST and in multidotting

[Baconeggcheese]

Yeah but locks don't bring anything to the raid that spriests do. Two very different classes that share nothing beyond being cloth wearing dot classes.

Yeah though I think someone has to be pretty high to think spriests realistically have anything for movement dps. They've probably got the worst movement dps solution in the game.