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  1. #101
    YG is soo OP I'm sure they will nerf it in WoD, i LOVE it on my bear!!!

  2. #102
    So on the one had we have Fappasaurus stating that YG is awful because I mean, because!

    And on the other hand we have pretty much every other druid telling him how its useful in more cases than the alterantives.

    Thank goodness fappasaurus can't be wrong about this, otherwise he'd be feeling pretty stupid about now and with any luck will stop posting...
    >SIX A-BONG SIX A-BONG OLLY JOLLY IT'S SIX-A-BONG

  3. #103
    Ysera is very mediocre but it is useful. The other choices are even more mediocre. Yes some classes actually have good choices at that tier but you can't really compare classes when it comes to talents. At least it's a nice QoL talent for soloing. I do think that tier should be redone for WoD.

  4. #104
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    This thread is weird. Lots of upset people, but I still haven't seen any decent explanation of why Ysera's Gift is not useful. It ticks for more than Efflorescence, Wild Growth, Lifebloom and Rejuvenation. If any of those can save lives then obviously a tick from Ysera's Gift can too. And if none of those can save lives, why the hell am I even in the raid?
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  5. #105
    Though I hate to agree with fappasaurus because for the most part, he is a (insert horde race), I do have to agree with YG not being useful for me. The healing tier choices are all pretty lackluster and situational, but somehow I do prefer having control over my own heal spells whenever I want them.

    But that's just what I like. And I don't make forums posts where I state that YG healing is useless as what fapp has done.
    Mew!

  6. #106
    I'm going to start raiding without Moonkin Form because it can save my life if I take slightly more damage from Physical damage mechanics then the healers might heal me first meaning it can save my life in the right situation.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2013-12-03 at 12:10 PM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirri View Post
    Though I hate to agree with fappasaurus because for the most part, he is a (insert horde race), I do have to agree with YG not being useful for me. The healing tier choices are all pretty lackluster and situational, but somehow I do prefer having control over my own heal spells whenever I want them.

    But that's just what I like. And I don't make forums posts where I state that YG healing is useless as what fapp has done.
    I think it very much depends on your spec what you think of the talent. As a guardian renewal is often the best because you personally need some burst healing and not sustained hps.
    As feral you often find cenarion ward better than the others because you won't take unnecessary burst damage that you can't plan for, and because YG in itself doesn't do much saving. CW is often good for healing up damage after soaking a puddle on malkorok for example. You have free GCD's too so this talent is little loss of dps.
    As resto or balance however you often use YG because you have other things that you could use your GCD's on in stead of CW. Again renewal isn't very useful because personal burst damage is a very minor issue.

  8. #108
    Dreadlord Thedead241's Avatar
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    Renewal is the best option by far in my opinion. Ysera's gift is.. eh...
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  9. #109
    People really seem to be interested in this, 6 pages in less than 24 hours.

    I find YG good for situations with lots of aoe damage, like Thok. Most of the time you won't be topped after a roar and it adds up quite a lot in the end. And also it actually makes smart heals prefer other people than you because you're usually not among the most injured and have Barkskin + Symbiosis for defensives so it's good.

    Renewal and CW would be better but they cost a global, which is kind of a big thing. 95% of the time you need a self heal, you have Nature's Swiftness ready to be used and NS HT is better almost always than renewal due to its scaling on SP and being able to crit and better than CW because the heal is instant. NS with Barkskin, Symbiosis, Healthstone and Might of Ursoc makes me feel very safe against pretty much anything.

    I have to agree though. Most of the time the heal from YG is useless. Passive heals like Atonement or Healing Rain would most likely heal that person back to full anyways. Just the fact that you don't lose globals when using it makes it superior in my opinion. For raw healing it's worse, but you really don't need a 6th defensive, most of the time anyways. And for that time you could, and should, pick CW or Renewal.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Based on what? If your teammate is getting bursted down ward is a lot better, and from what I can see from Minpojke's vods/stream it helps when you have to sit in long cc chains and blooms inevitably fall off.

    @Satanic if you don't want to be calm/civil don't post. HPS isn't everything
    If you are playing 2s 3s or 5s as a healer, you are going to get CC'd a LOT. Ysera is still active whilst being CC'ed. It has not LoS requirement. It only has a total range requirement. If you are playing versus good players, you should realistically expect some damage to flow most if not all of the time, which in itself describes ideal conditions for Ysera. Now add to that the fact that it MIGHT be that single tick of healing needed to save someone whilst you are in a blind or cyclone, and you have a tactical advantage.


    Burst healing is NECCESARY when you are reciving burst damage, but the problem with implying that you can try to sustain ANY kind of rotation in a PvP enviroment comes from someone who never actually has tried. On top of high damage cooldowns, teams will try to add in stuff like phasing, or hard/soft CC on healers in order to ensure a kill. Enjoy having Cenarion Ward off cooldown and ready for burst healing if your teammate has been death gripped LoS; is in a smoke bomb, or you are incapacitated.
    ^ I agree with this.

  11. #111
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thedead241 View Post
    Renewal is the best option by far in my opinion. Ysera's gift is.. eh...
    As resto in PvE, Renewal is incredibly "meh". Ysera's Gift provides free healing and keeps ticking even when you do other stuff. You both save mana in the long run (allowing you to reforge away some spirit and get more throughput stats) and gain a little bit of extra burst healing, as it keeps healing people even while you're channeling Tranquility or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    I have to agree though. Most of the time the heal from YG is useless. Passive heals like Atonement or Healing Rain would most likely heal that person back to full anyways.
    It depends on the content, the individual fight and how many healers you use. If there's frequently no one who needs healing for any significant period of time, you probably have too many healers. Looking at logs, less than 10% of my YG healing is overhealing on any fight where I actually care. Most heroic modes have enough random stuff flying around that there's always someone who needs that healing.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    It depends on the content, the individual fight and how many healers you use. If there's frequently no one who needs healing for any significant period of time, you probably have too many healers. Looking at logs, less than 10% of my YG healing is overhealing on any fight where I actually care. Most heroic modes have enough random stuff flying around that there's always someone who needs that healing.
    Yes, YG's overhealing is next to nothing but think about this: If a target takes 200k damage and YG ticks on him. No further damage is taken by that player and passive heals (such as atonement) top him off. Usually, when raid damage is that low, everyone is topped by that time resulting in the passive heals overhealing. So YG (a passive heal) healed a target and made other passive heals overheal. Makes YG quite useless in that situation.

    The period doesn't need to be significant. If at any point other passive heals manage to top the entire raid, YG during that period has been pretty much worthless. Dark Shaman is a good example of this. Lots of spiky damage which is often healed by atonement and the heals by YG on tanks is worthless (tanks overheal on themselves a lot.)

    Good fights for the talent are Iron Juggernaut and Thok. There the damage is constant enough for make actual use of the small infrequent heals. A good example of a neutral fight is Garrosh. The damage is (transitions) constant when it hits but is still quite short (whirling corruption) in duration.

    And having too many healers isn't the issue. I wouldn't feel comfortable 1 healing too many of the fights. (10man)

  13. #113
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    Good thing you can change to something you like better then. I'll stay with YG on most bosses but change when i need to extra healing on someone else.. But if its on farm i'd use YG because its passive. Renewal has saved me a few times and cenarion works fine too.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    No you don't understand the primary reason behind not taking other choices in the tree is not because the healing is lower(which they aren't) but because people are too lazy to hit another keybind for it, thus blindly defending it with blanket statements like "cenarion ward does low healing" and no numbers to prove....
    Maybe you should browse the Druid forums more than just the last couple of pages. This topic was discussed to death since 5.0 to now (numbers and all) and the general consensus is that CW is worthless as a Druid unless you can make all your healers stop sniping heals from HoTs. It didn't matter until YG was introduced since NS was better for 3/4 specs in terms of healing.

    1. CW will not proc until all absorb mechanics are consumed
    2. CW will proc on insignificant amounts of damage
    3. CW is based on SP
    4. CW consumes a GCD
    5. CW can only benefit one person every 30 seconds assuming you use it on cooldown

    So, with those 5 cons I can think of off the top of my head, why would I want to consider it over Ysera's Gift outside of extremely rare situations?

    Dude, get real, stop trying to make comparisons between things that don't make any sense to compare. The choice is within that talent tier, not to rejuv or use something in that tier. The healing per tick and speed of ticks isn't even comparable to rejuvenation...
    But it is valid to consider Rejuv versus CW since both are on the GCD whereas YG and Renewal aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Based on what? If your teammate is getting bursted down ward is a lot better, and from what I can see from Minpojke's vods/stream it helps when you have to sit in long cc chains and blooms inevitably fall off.

    @Satanic if you don't want to be calm/civil don't post. HPS isn't everything
    I agree with you that this is one of those instances where the burst healing from CW is better than YG. However most people in this thread are discussing CW usage from a PvE perspective and this kind of burst damage does not happen unless a non-tank messes up. Plus as others have mentioned it's still kind of silly to get into one specific instance to make CW useful since one can define yet another instance where CW becomes useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fountaiin View Post
    More often than not, when a wipe occurs from my experiences, both in "cutting-edge" progression and average raiding guilds, it's because someone made a mistake.
    So trade the passive smart healing over the course of the fight just in case someone messes up despite that if the fuck up never occurs CW would be less useful than YG (cause honestly, when was the last time you saw someone not at 100% for 9 seconds when in range of a healer?). Okay.

    Edit: In the end it doesn't matter though, lol. Druids are immortal and most fights aren't healing checks anymore. People die to messing up malice, malkorok soaking, or missed raid cooldowns (sparringly), not lack of healing. At least in decent raiding guilds.
    Exactly. The amount of damage that goes out in these cases is generally to the point that no amount of healing outside a major healing cooldown will save that person. CW is not strong enough to be considered a major healing cooldown and the fact that it requires a GCD to use puts it in direct competition of Rejuv or other cast spells.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    Yes, YG's overhealing is next to nothing but think about this: If a target takes 200k damage and YG ticks on him. No further damage is taken by that player and passive heals (such as atonement) top him off. Usually, when raid damage is that low, everyone is topped by that time resulting in the passive heals overhealing. So YG (a passive heal) healed a target and made other passive heals overheal. Makes YG quite useless in that situation.

    The period doesn't need to be significant. If at any point other passive heals manage to top the entire raid, YG during that period has been pretty much worthless. Dark Shaman is a good example of this. Lots of spiky damage which is often healed by atonement and the heals by YG on tanks is worthless (tanks overheal on themselves a lot.)

    Good fights for the talent are Iron Juggernaut and Thok. There the damage is constant enough for make actual use of the small infrequent heals. A good example of a neutral fight is Garrosh. The damage is (transitions) constant when it hits but is still quite short (whirling corruption) in duration.

    And having too many healers isn't the issue. I wouldn't feel comfortable 1 healing too many of the fights. (10man)
    in previous post u said renewal is a global, it is off global. Ysera's is better as long as you don't get fixated on thok (and it's not the last fixate), however if you have to kite the boss that far out of range w/ boots and displacer usually healers won't keep up and having renewal is going to help. In the case of Juggernaut, I completely disagree here, because I'm often not topped before the shock and die w/o (standing in HR and efflo in case someone wants to just say I'm bad or something...). There's 3 or 4 shocks i forgot exactly, but NS and stones and ursoc aren't always enough. Dark shaman if you get prison a.nd meteor is coming etc.

    I react to my healthpool much faster than healers do. I don't heal so maybe some resto druids can clarify this for me, but healing seems to have very little to reacting the raid frames (I've been watching a lot of cute disc priest girls stream lately) and more about some weird damage rotation w/ smite and holy fire. Now, obviously they use things like spirit shell on CD, but healers seem to never direct heal anyone but the tanks, therefore if a dps is bursted down, you're just going to get some random smart heal tick.

    Some previous posters... The title is to draw attn to thread b/c its more catchy... and I do agree that I might as well take Ysera if I never really take much damage, but even when I am playing properly, I can run out of stuff in the tank, and I'm not healthstoning at 90% or something before those insults come too.

  16. #116
    OP is too hostile using statements as "you don't understand" and other comparable statements, enough to be classified as a troll.
    Also renewal is a clearly situational talent, but has its uses.
    Ysera's gift is the clear talent of choice in any case where renewal isn't better.
    CW have to compete with tier procced HT and NS + HT, rejuv and regrowth, where regrowth and HT both provide instant healing and rejuv provides the prehot, using CW reactively is solving no issues that wouldn't be solved better by any of the other spells (slightly more mana effective, note that HT is free while regrowth is double the cost.). So that leaves one usage left, and that is when you know someone is going to take damage and will survive it and will soon take another chunk of damage, in this case it would be slightly better than rejuv + genesis and a bit more mana effective (mana that you would save elsewhere by ysera's gift.). I rarely run into mana issues if I use innervate on myself, and if I do run into them I call for a boomkin innervate and get full mana again or just play conservatively with HT proccs/NS, meta gem proccs and clearcasting proccs, and gain the mana back quite quickly. It might have been a decent choice if it was in it's current state back in tier 14 because of the mana effectiveness, but the talent does not deserve a cooldown or it needs to be taken out of the gcd to be useful in any case, and still then it would have to compete with the other 2 talents.
    I was sure I would love CW when I first saw it, but time and time again it has been proven too weak.
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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by theburned View Post
    OP is too hostile using statements as "you don't understand" and other comparable statements, enough to be classified as a troll.
    Also renewal is a clearly situational talent, but has its uses.
    Ysera's gift is the clear talent of choice in any case where renewal isn't better.
    CW have to compete with tier procced HT and NS + HT, rejuv and regrowth, where regrowth and HT both provide instant healing and rejuv provides the prehot, using CW reactively is solving no issues that wouldn't be solved better by any of the other spells (slightly more mana effective, note that HT is free while regrowth is double the cost.). So that leaves one usage left, and that is when you know someone is going to take damage and will survive it and will soon take another chunk of damage, in this case it would be slightly better than rejuv + genesis and a bit more mana effective (mana that you would save elsewhere by ysera's gift.). I rarely run into mana issues if I use innervate on myself, and if I do run into them I call for a boomkin innervate and get full mana again or just play conservatively with HT proccs/NS, meta gem proccs and clearcasting proccs, and gain the mana back quite quickly. It might have been a decent choice if it was in it's current state back in tier 14 because of the mana effectiveness, but the talent does not deserve a cooldown or it needs to be taken out of the gcd to be useful in any case, and still then it would have to compete with the other 2 talents.
    I was sure I would love CW when I first saw it, but time and time again it has been proven too weak.
    It's a serious thread, irregardless of how what I typed on an internet forum comes off to you. The talent tier is often forgotten, most players just roll YG by default at this point, and don't consider the other two. I'm just trying to raise the point that I, and other players think that the other two choices can be better or equal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    So trade the passive smart healing over the course of the fight just in case someone messes up despite that if the fuck up never occurs CW would be less useful than YG (cause honestly, when was the last time you saw someone not at 100% for 9 seconds when in range of a healer?).
    See my above post. You seem to be under the notion that healers somehow react to low raid frames and target you when you're taking big burst. I've rarely seen it work like this. You're going to get some meanial wild growth/circle of healing thing and not be topped in time for another damage pulse. Best example for reference I can use is the juggernaut shocks. You know you're going to likely die if you're not topped, the boss is casting and you're not topped....

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Please share guild, would love to play somewhere where everyone plays perfectly every pull or most pulls.
    You mean people in your guild don't play reasonably perfect? ._. You must not progress much then. From what I've seen in my guild's heroic progression so far, mistakes lead to instant death. The reason why the talent is so good is because it is a very reasonable expectation for everything to go smoothly. Wipes don't happen because that one guy could have been saved with a cooldown. Wipes happen because people mess up so badly that it's something you can't recover from. You saved the tank but two healers and one dps have all died. What's the point? Plus, globals aren't something that can really be wasted.

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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    in previous post u said renewal is a global, it is off global.
    Oh, I had just assumed. Haven't used renewal in ages.
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Ysera's is better as long as you don't get fixated on thok (and it's not the last fixate), however if you have to kite the boss that far out of range w/ boots and displacer usually healers won't keep up and having renewal is going to help.
    As if rejuv, NS, healthstone, barkskin and might of ursoc isn't enough. And we at least have a healer running with a dps because most can't keep themselves up so they shouldn't need any cooldowns.
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    In the case of Juggernaut, I completely disagree here, because I'm often not topped before the shock and die w/o (standing in HR and efflo in case someone wants to just say I'm bad or something...). There's 3 or 4 shocks i forgot exactly, but NS and stones and ursoc aren't always enough. Dark shaman if you get prison a.nd meteor is coming etc.
    Then either you aren't using raid cooldowns, your healers aren't doing their job properly, or you're not using your defensives like you should. I have never died in that fight after progress to lack of heals. If you really have issues with that, Renewal/CW can be used but I feel like there is a bigger issue than your talents then.

    Dark shaman shouldn't be an issue, you have barkskin for every iron prison and hopefully some absorbs. If you don't have a holy paladin or a disc priest it can get trickier but really you should always have something. It never hurts to ask for an external. Besides, Renewal isn't a damage reduction, but a heal, making it possibly very difficult to time between Iron Prison and Falling Ash.

    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Now, obviously they use things like spirit shell on CD, but healers seem to never direct heal anyone but the tanks, therefore if a dps is bursted down, you're just going to get some random smart heal tick.
    If healers have the mentality that smart heals will pick up any dps, they should just stop healing. Neglecting a huge part of your raid is just lazy.
    Last edited by Alzu; 2013-12-03 at 05:17 PM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    See my above post. You seem to be under the notion that healers somehow react to low raid frames and target you when you're taking big burst. I've rarely seen it work like this. You're going to get some menial (fixed that spelling for ya) wild growth/circle of healing thing and not be topped in time for another damage pulse. Best example for reference I can use is the juggernaut shocks. You know you're going to likely die if you're not topped, the boss is casting and you're not topped....
    I don't know what healers you raid with but they sound like shit. The healers job is to make sure everybody lives through unavoidable damage. If all they do is spray and pray their heals then they're very low skill healers. 8-9 players in a 10 man raid have full health on a Jugg pulse and your healers don't single target the last few? That's some really shitty healing. I mean even AoE healing can be directed. Before they made chain heal equal healing you would target the lowest health person so they would get the most out of it. If a player is lower on health than others and I'm doing a blanket HoT fest I would make sure to hit them first so they get the healing first. If your healers are not thinking like this then they are bad.

    Also: In the case of Iron Jugg the healers are literally spamming AoE heals. If everybody is taking the same healing and some people die then it's safe to assume they didn't dodge something. You don't base your toolkit around that happening. Players assume things are going to go smoothly in terms of individual play.

    In the case of something not AoE related: Yeah they will spam you to full or they'll get an earful if they're in a guild that actually cares about raiding. If you pop your CDs and still die because of a lack of healing that's entirely on them to do their job. You shouldn't feel the need to talent into something for this situation.
    Last edited by Hctaz; 2013-12-03 at 05:20 PM.

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