Ysera's gift is not useful healing

[insanedruid]

Dude, get real, stop trying to make comparisons between things that don't make any sense to compare. The choice is within that talent tier, not to rejuv or use something in that tier. The healing per tick and speed of ticks isn't even comparable to rejuvenation...

- - - Updated - - -



Again, seriously? not comparable, and I'm not complaining about the talent... If you read more into the thread I'm more concerned with people just picking up this talent, never switching it when another would be more useful, stuff like that. Stop making ridiculous analogies. If you want to talk purgatory go to the DK forum.

From the perspective of resto druid actually makes perfect sense.
What you said is that the small tick Ysera's gift provides does not save lives, so it's not useful right?
Rejuv tick is not a lot stronger, so it must not save life right?
What hots do is to help relieving healing pressure. A hot tick will not safe life most of the time. But they are not useless.

The benefit of CW is so tiny and it costs a gcd as well as mana. Most of the time you would rather just rejuv the target.(And again would you say rejuv is not the talnet choice?)

If CW is not saving the target from death it's just plain useless as rejuv will just do the job better.
And how many times that you know someone will be dead beforehand and cast a CW to him to prevend him from dying?
And for renewal it surely can be useful but it depends on how the encounter goes. I have soulstone and find that when the raid wiped I was often the last man standing without consuming a single use of soulstone.

[satanicway]

fappasaurus:

Seriously, go learn about your class.

You are trying to lecture people when all you are saying is wrong, pathetic and against what the top raiding druids accept as general knowledge of the class.
Go look at all top raiding druids... guess what most of them uses? Gift of Ysera.
Be they healers, tanks or even dps's.

If you cannot understand why, then you simple suck at heroic raiding knowledge.
Blanket smart healing always heals the one that needs it, it may not be the only heal to save someone, but it adds up.
With 2-4 druids in a raid, you can have a nice free blanket making the healers waste less mana on aoe healing spells.

Have you noticed how much less an AOE heal heals in comparison with a single target?
And what people uses?
And why healers LOVE smart healing spells?

They are efficient, they barely overheal, they contribute way more then you believe.

In fact, it heals for an amount that is quite expressive when you look at HoTs instead of looking at single target healing spells.

Either you prove it mathematically with a log analise with enough statistical data, or you are just spilling misconceptions to the community.
Every prove made till now favores Ysera, actual raiding experience of top players favores Ysera.

Either you prove it with math, or just shut up and stop forcing people into playing wrong.

[Irisel]

I haven't PvPed in a hot minute, but YG is probably boarderline OP for resto PvP, from what I can tell.

[Aboubacar]

I haven't PvPed in a hot minute, but YG is probably boarderline OP for resto PvP, from what I can tell.

Based on what? If your teammate is getting bursted down ward is a lot better, and from what I can see from Minpojke's vods/stream it helps when you have to sit in long cc chains and blooms inevitably fall off.

@Satanic if you don't want to be calm/civil don't post. HPS isn't everything

[Whydrood]

Ok, lets put this to rest:

CW and Renewal are situational talents as has been stated before. In some situations they can be useful. However for them to be useful in situations where you take spike damage, this means they need to be off CD - which means you likely aren't using them on cooldown and saving them for when you really are in danger of dying. You can run the numbers and say that CW and Renewal will do more healing than YG in those situations, however this isn't the case because most of the time you are saving them for when you need them. Especially as a DPSer using CW unless you are wasting a GCD every 30 seconds on the tank/yourself - you are essentially nerfing your own DPS and hurting the raid making the fight last longer.

As a healer, CW is less effective because we have much more useful tools at our disposal. CW really has no place in the resto toolkit. If a tank is going to take large spike damage, CW is not a heal that is potent enough, doesnt last long enough, nor is it reliable enough to be considered a tank cooldown. If a tank is about to take spike damage, I would rather use tools like Ironbark, genesis, lifebloom, Regrowth, and SM to keep the tank alive.

As far as renewal vs YG - as restoration Ill keep YG over renewal every time. Not because I am lazy, but because I have much better tools to bind to my keys than a wasted talented self heal. I get more healing from Might of Ursoc+Health stone key bind than this talent gives.

YG's heal, unless everyone is sitting at 100% health, never goes to waste. You are not "saving" it for a specific phase in the fight. You are not wasting mana by casting it. It is just a steady stream of healing every 5 seconds. Which usually, for most resto druids, equates to much more healing than either Renewal or CW ever could (nearly 5% of our total healing done, in almost every case).

Assuming you have 42,000 SP, and 600k HP - YG will do nearly the same amount of healing as CW in 30 seconds for 0 mana. YG is just the better choice all around.

TL;DR
YG is better than Renewal because you get the same benefit from Health stones, with the added benefit of a passive heal.
YG is better than CW because you have better spells to spend GCD's on.

[lappee]

Are you saying im bad because i have it?

Tbh its actually useful healing, its like having rejuv on yourself (which i did cast on my self quite alot before the talent)

Im just wondering why'd you need renewal when you have everything else already? or are you just the type of player that goes into panic and presses everything at the same time?

[Aboubacar]

Are you saying im bad because i have it?

Tbh its actually useful healing, its like having rejuv on yourself (which i did cast on my self quite alot before the talent)

Im just wondering why'd you need renewal when you have everything else already? or are you just the type of player that goes into panic and presses everything at the same time?

No I rotate them, maybe I didn't absolutely NEED to NS+HT at 30% and a healer would have picked me up, by why not be safe? You can still run out of defensives still on HCs, not like we still have 15% DR.

Also sometimes HT heals really low probably b/c it didn't crit and isn't really enough

[satanicway]

@Satanic if you don't want to be calm/civil don't post. HPS isn't everything

Your post was aggressive in nature.
You proved nothing, and used no math to create a case.


And about your obtuse idea of HPS being irrelevant, let me remember you that constant streams of healing smooth the damage patterns, reducing the need for more powerful healing spells, or more aoe spells cast.
Also, only one Ysera might not save, well it might save someone too, but 3-4 of then ticking can certainly save someone.

The fact is that you go against all that the top guilds are doing, and shows no evidence outside of bad logic, without mathematical base.
So in the end, why to believe in you?
And why to even let you spread wrong information to other players reading?


Either you prove it with math, or you should just admite you are wrong.

[Fountaiin]

I'm inclined to agree with this post from my own experiences. The game has been overloaded with smaller periodic smart heals, and while I wouldn't go as far as to say Ysera's is useless, I think something like Renewal would have a lot more practical application.

More often than not, when a wipe occurs from my experiences, both in "cutting-edge" progression and average raiding guilds, it's because someone made a mistake. Think of Horridon adds getting a cast off or missing a kick on Sul. Sure, Yseras might save someone from one of these mistakes too, but when you watch kill videos or streams and wipes occur it is because a few people die one by one and a snowball effect occurs. I know when I do a hard boss I can confidently say even if I make a mistake, which happens for everyone, I can reliably save myself between barkskin, renewal, ursoc, healthstone and NS. Perhaps you argue that with that many defensives you shouldn't die regardless of Renewal, which is fair, but it's nice to always have something to fall back knowing that healers can focus on a class without so many defensives.

Something like Dark Shamans comes to mind here where it's almost impossible to die unless you do something dumb. More often than not Yseras isn't going to save you from getting hit by a tornado or a toxic storm and then having your iron prison expire, whereas Renewal ALWAYS will if you're quick. The same goes for something like a Falling Ash explosion followed by iron prison a second later. Again I'm not implying Yseras is useless and I'm sure there are plenty of fights where Ysera's has strong application too.

I see a few posts mentioning PvP, which I'm not even going to get into. Cenarion controlled burst healing during silences alone makes it miles better than any passive healing could.

Just my thoughts though. Feel free to disagree.

Edit: In the end it doesn't matter though, lol. Druids are immortal and most fights aren't healing checks anymore. People die to messing up malice, malkorok soaking, or missed raid cooldowns (sparringly), not lack of healing. At least in decent raiding guilds.

[Aboubacar]

And about your obtuse idea of HPS being irrelevant, let me remember you that constant streams of healing smooth the damage patterns.

I am pretty sure cooldowns and burst healing "smooths out" the damage intake because the weaker passive stream wouldn't have kept the raid up through it....

[satanicway]

I am pretty sure cooldowns and burst healing "smooths out" the damage intake because the weaker passive stream wouldn't have kept the raid up through it....

Wrong.

The more constant stream of HPS you have, the less amount of healers using CDs at the same, or conscutive time, is needed to deal with a mechanic.

That is why we like to stack people inside Sanctuary or Efflorecence.

It's always about little numbers constantly adding up.
And smart healing ensures that all of those little heals contribute in a meaningful way.

By your logic, we should not lose our time with Ground heals, because they are not "bursty", and not big cooldowns.

Smoothing out damage PATTERN is not about CD or burst healing. Smoothing damage pattern is about constant stream of healing.
Burst healing and damage reduction CD's serve to avoid deaths, wile HoT's and ground healing spells make a cushion that make the down of HP of the raid slower, and then help to bring it up to safe levels later.

This is a well know concept, any descent healer will know how this works.

Again, you showed no math outside of misconceptions and faulty logics.
Try to prove your point with numbers or logs.

Show in a huge group of random logs that uses Ysera, and another that does not, that the Ysera group is less likely to beat the encounter.

Either you bring real proofs, or we will keep agreeing with what worked for the top guilds.
You probably think too high of yourself, since you keep thinking you know more then all of those players that are fighting for world firsts.

Show a log of your guild, so we can evaluate who you are, and see if your experience is compatible with the kind of arguments you are rising here.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm inclined to agree with this post from my own experiences. The game has been overloaded with smaller periodic smart heals, and while I wouldn't go as far as to say Ysera's is useless, I think something like Renewal would have a lot more practical application.

More often than not, when a wipe occurs from my experiences, both in "cutting-edge" progression and average raiding guilds, it's because someone made a mistake. Think of Horridon adds getting a cast off or missing a kick on Sul. Sure, Yseras might save someone from one of these mistakes too, but when you watch kill videos or streams and wipes occur it is because a few people die one by one and a snowball effect occurs. I know when I do a hard boss I can confidently say even if I make a mistake, which happens for everyone, I can reliably save myself between barkskin, renewal, ursoc, healthstone and NS. Perhaps you argue that with that many defensives you shouldn't die regardless of Renewal, which is fair, but it's nice to always have something to fall back knowing that healers can focus on a class without so many defensives.

Something like Dark Shamans comes to mind here where it's almost impossible to die unless you do something dumb. More often than not Yseras isn't going to save you from getting hit by a tornado or a toxic storm and then having your iron prison expire, whereas Renewal ALWAYS will if you're quick. The same goes for something like a Falling Ash explosion followed by iron prison a second later. Again I'm not implying Yseras is useless and I'm sure there are plenty of fights where Ysera's has strong application too.

I see a few posts mentioning PvP, which I'm not even going to get into. Cenarion controlled burst healing during silences alone makes it miles better than any passive healing could.

Just my thoughts though. Feel free to disagree.

Edit: In the end it doesn't matter though, lol. Druids are immortal and most fights aren't healing checks anymore. People die to messing up malice, malkorok soaking, or missed raid cooldowns (sparringly), not lack of healing. At least in decent raiding guilds.

Misconception.

The fact that we have alot of little heals, is exactly what make such heals powerful.
If we had only one source of such heals, they would rarely help, but with the stack effect of smart healing, it causes an effect that is often forgotten.
But think about ALL those times where someone was at 15% HP because of multiple sources of damage, all those times we would have a death, and because of the smart healing we have not even noticed that it was that dangerous.

Remember that it makes the life of the raid more stable, meaning that the healers panic less and waste less mana trying to bring everyone back to top asap.

This kind of healing is exactly the one that saves alot of lifes but goes under the radar of people that are not paying close attention, and not analysing data properly.

Think about how OP was paladin solo tanks in some fights, because of both the huge amount of DPS, AND HPS that they could generate to the raid, all small and smart healing, but that added up and made fights WAY easier.
I remember when we first got to Council HC in ToT, with pally solo tank the raid damage was way better to handle. (2 healing, 1 tank at that time)
When we tried with other tanks, our mana would not reach the end of the fight in a consistent way, sometimes we were able to pull it off, others we could not, but when the pally was back as the solo tank, everything worked way better.

Those constant strems of HP are way better then people give then credit for.
All smart healing is OP in fact.

[Gemini Soul]

YG is soo OP I'm sure they will nerf it in WoD, i LOVE it on my bear!!!

[AeneasBK]

So on the one had we have Fappasaurus stating that YG is awful because I mean, because!

And on the other hand we have pretty much every other druid telling him how its useful in more cases than the alterantives.

Thank goodness fappasaurus can't be wrong about this, otherwise he'd be feeling pretty stupid about now and with any luck will stop posting...

[teddabear]

Ysera is very mediocre but it is useful. The other choices are even more mediocre. Yes some classes actually have good choices at that tier but you can't really compare classes when it comes to talents. At least it's a nice QoL talent for soloing. I do think that tier should be redone for WoD.

[Alltat]

This thread is weird. Lots of upset people, but I still haven't seen any decent explanation of why Ysera's Gift is not useful. It ticks for more than Efflorescence, Wild Growth, Lifebloom and Rejuvenation. If any of those can save lives then obviously a tick from Ysera's Gift can too. And if none of those can save lives, why the hell am I even in the raid?

[Mirri]

Though I hate to agree with fappasaurus because for the most part, he is a (insert horde race), I do have to agree with YG not being useful for me. The healing tier choices are all pretty lackluster and situational, but somehow I do prefer having control over my own heal spells whenever I want them.

But that's just what I like. And I don't make forums posts where I state that YG healing is useless as what fapp has done.

[Glurp]

I'm going to start raiding without Moonkin Form because it can save my life if I take slightly more damage from Physical damage mechanics then the healers might heal me first meaning it can save my life in the right situation.

[Deleted]

Though I hate to agree with fappasaurus because for the most part, he is a (insert horde race), I do have to agree with YG not being useful for me. The healing tier choices are all pretty lackluster and situational, but somehow I do prefer having control over my own heal spells whenever I want them.

But that's just what I like. And I don't make forums posts where I state that YG healing is useless as what fapp has done.

I think it very much depends on your spec what you think of the talent. As a guardian renewal is often the best because you personally need some burst healing and not sustained hps.
As feral you often find cenarion ward better than the others because you won't take unnecessary burst damage that you can't plan for, and because YG in itself doesn't do much saving. CW is often good for healing up damage after soaking a puddle on malkorok for example. You have free GCD's too so this talent is little loss of dps.
As resto or balance however you often use YG because you have other things that you could use your GCD's on in stead of CW. Again renewal isn't very useful because personal burst damage is a very minor issue.

[Deleted]

Renewal is the best option by far in my opinion. Ysera's gift is.. eh...

[Alzu]

People really seem to be interested in this, 6 pages in less than 24 hours.

I find YG good for situations with lots of aoe damage, like Thok. Most of the time you won't be topped after a roar and it adds up quite a lot in the end. And also it actually makes smart heals prefer other people than you because you're usually not among the most injured and have Barkskin + Symbiosis for defensives so it's good.

Renewal and CW would be better but they cost a global, which is kind of a big thing. 95% of the time you need a self heal, you have Nature's Swiftness ready to be used and NS HT is better almost always than renewal due to its scaling on SP and being able to crit and better than CW because the heal is instant. NS with Barkskin, Symbiosis, Healthstone and Might of Ursoc makes me feel very safe against pretty much anything.

I have to agree though. Most of the time the heal from YG is useless. Passive heals like Atonement or Healing Rain would most likely heal that person back to full anyways. Just the fact that you don't lose globals when using it makes it superior in my opinion. For raw healing it's worse, but you really don't need a 6th defensive, most of the time anyways. And for that time you could, and should, pick CW or Renewal.