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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhany View Post
    first: it negates almost everyp iece of dmg youd take as a bear in solo content

    second: its not for saving you in a raid, its for relieving healers slightly. it does that perfectly, one of the most useful talents for soling and bears.
    I'll have to disagree, ward is far better in my opinion for a druid tank.

  2. #242
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    Instead of warning half the users in this thread, I'm going to just give a blanket warning for everyone to keep flaming/derailment to a minimum and stick to the topic at hand. When you phrase an argument, please make sure it is structured appropriately, and ensure it uses real evidence rather than just anecdotes -- this is why mathematics is a very strong reasoning tool, whereas stories are not. Above all, respect other users and don't devolve into senseless bashing in your post, as that destroys credibility even further.

  3. #243
    I'd like to point out one thing. Why does every top druid use YG if it's bad

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Checksmix View Post
    I'd like to point out one thing. Why does every top druid use YG if it's bad
    Every "top" druid isn't tailor/engineer either. Doesn't mean that those aren't the 2 best DPS profs.
    Also, YG is better than nothing, just saying there's potentially better choices.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Every "top" druid isn't tailor/engineer either. Doesn't mean that those aren't the 2 best DPS profs.
    Also, YG is better than nothing, just saying there's potentially better choices.
    That's also like saying every best druid didn't reroll lock because their the best DPS class...

    There really isn't better choices, renewal? Use a healthstone. Rarely should it be on CD when you really need it. CW? Just rej the target and watch as they are INSTANTLY healed and it INSTANTLY starts counting down on yourself and not waiting for you to take damage.

    Main reason people take YG is there are better spells to be casting, and passive healing is always amazing. Will it save your life? Maybe, probably not. But will it + other things (efflo, rej, HR, ect ect) save your life? yes.

  6. #246
    Let's delete rejuv, hots are useless.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    As a dps druid, i dont find really any use for Renewal. There just isnt enough high spiky damaging phases in fights that would require yet another burst heal cd's.
    What comes to CW, it heals around 160k (my gear, unbuffed etc) whilst Yseras gift will heal around 33k. Now add 1 rejuvenation to this and in 6 seconds, you'll be healed for 100k the least, 130k if YG heals twice in that time. In short CW is the most useless talent as a balance druid since YG+rejuv will heal nearly the same, have the same GCD cost but has NO CD (and lasts way, way longer)

    In short, if a fight doesnt require you to solo 500k spiky damage 4 times in a row -> pick YG
    ^ This is from a top level raider from a dps point of view which you were discussing Fappasaurus , which also specifies the specific niche in which CW might be used. From a resto PoV , Resto has better non-CD options to heal through a particular emergency to using a CW.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Checksmix View Post
    That's also like saying every best druid didn't reroll lock because their the best DPS class...

    There really isn't better choices, renewal? Use a healthstone. Rarely should it be on CD when you really need it. CW? Just rej the target and watch as they are INSTANTLY healed and it INSTANTLY starts counting down on yourself and not waiting for you to take damage.

    .
    Well, no it's not. You still need class balance or bosses won't die. Should you reroll a lock if your guild has an excess of druids and few warlocks? Probably would be beneficial.

    Min/maxing minor details like professions and t30 talents is interesting and somewhat important, but not comparable to that analogy. Learning the best proffessions only takes a couple hours as well... Small price to pay for a few thousand dps

    Once again, renewal is off the gcd, just as "free" as ysera's gift. Idk what content everyone is on and I haven't raided in your guild(s) so maybe you have amazing healers that always keep you close to topped. If this was my experience I'd be leaning toward YG as well.

    However, in my experience it's not uncommon to be hovering low multiple times in an encounter prior to falling ash, shock pulse etc. Abilities you need to be topped for and use and/or use a DR CD as well. If a healer dies on a sloppy pull or you're underhealing fights it becomes even more crucial to have an extra healing CD to use for events like this.

    healthstone is great, but only 20% of your hp, NS is rng depending on trinket procs/crit. I've had it hit for over 1million with HoTW up, and as low as 200-250k. Like I've said before, sometimes, no, the other baseline healing cds are not enough and I'd rather be safe than out of cds and I am using them conservatively already.
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2013-12-09 at 11:29 AM.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    healthstone is great, but only 20% of your hp, NS is rng depending on trinket procs/crit. I've had it hit for over 1million with HoTW up, and as low as 200-250k. Like I've said before, sometimes, no, the other baseline healing cds are not enough and I'd rather be safe than out of cds and I am using them conservatively already.
    If that happens regularly enough to be an issue, you need a better raid. On the vast majority of heroic fights, i don't even need enough CDs to actually use my fel candies simply because they'd be completely wasted.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    However, in my experience it's not uncommon to be hovering low multiple times in an encounter prior to falling ash, shock pulse etc. Abilities you need to be topped for and use and/or use a DR CD as well. If a healer dies on a sloppy pull or you're underhealing fights it becomes even more crucial to have an extra healing CD to use for events like this.
    How long are you hovering low? If its more than 2 secs, then the problem is not your tier 30 talent choice, its your healers.
    Between barkskin, ursoc, NS if boomkin, symbiosis, (SI if you have it), cookies...you really shouldn't be spending very much time at all so low that you feel you need yet another CD. Check your logs and see how often your renewal is followed immediately by some spike healing that went to overheal...maybe your healers just have slower reaction times.

    Are there certain niche times where Renewal could be useful in pve for dps, yes, - but most of the time for general raiding use, its redundant, and YG is likely better.

    (granted if your healers do have crappy reaction times - then by all means take renewal - all talent choices have to deal with the realities of your specific raid situations--but doesn't mean that applies to everyone else)
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-12-09 at 05:42 PM.

  11. #251
    Deleted
    I have to say that a LOT of statements here are true and the whole discussion goes on 'cause there are some good things in both reneval and yseras.

    It was statet multiply times that smart heals are op atm and that is totally right.

    It was statet that there are different viewpoints from spec to spec which is correct.

    It was statet that some player really never need a second healthstone but you have to be careful about listening to that as a way to go. Lappee was/is one of the best owlkins playing a long time ultra hardcore progress. His viewpoint and meaning is correct speaking for himself. But how many guilds have 14/14 hc by now? Why did so many guilds struggle especially in 10men mode where you did not have an insane amont of raidcooldowns? Its because a LOT of players made mistakes in there trys to execute a boss.

    Yeah its right. Ysera is the clear winner if everything goes as planned. Then each smartheal (regardless how low it is) is better in ogrimmar cause dmg spikes are rare.

    I dont know how good you guys are and if a new owlkin should be taking ysera 'cause he or she MUST play correct in every situation or he or she should reroll instantly - naah enough if that sarcasm. I respect all of that guys stating that there passive forget-spell is op and its true ofc.

    I play 10 men and we are 11/14 hc atm. My tree druid friend has ysera and thinks like most of the people writing here. But everytime he dies cause of a mistake i think to myself: wouldnt happen with renev :-)

    If i have to advice a new owlkin which one to take i would say: forget cw cause its on gcd and like ns+ht its bullshit cause one gcd is difference between living and dieing. I never use ns on me. I fire it on people getting HUGE spikes cause my raid is not as good as Lappee... >.< Learn to love your healthstone, barkskin and renev cause they are off the gcd and can be used INSTANT which made them best for "most human beeing" :-)

    If you or your raid dont get spikes at all switch to ysera.

    That can be depent on the encounter aswell. On thok hc there are no spikes at all. On nazgrim hc there are a LOT if your team made some mistakes in execution :-)

    Just my opinion.

    And yeah cw might be good as well but from a dmg perspective? Meeeh.

  12. #252
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Once again, renewal is off the gcd, just as "free" as ysera's gift. Idk what content everyone is on and I haven't raided in your guild(s) so maybe you have amazing healers that always keep you close to topped. If this was my experience I'd be leaning toward YG as well.
    No that is exactly when you should not use YG. The time in between raid damaging abilities such as swelling pride is a non-issue to heal, in which case YG only heals what the healers would have done anyways (with no additional mana cost if that is an issue). The main point of CW is healing up that hard hitting Shock blast before the healers even need to target you.
    YG is for if you are on a fight where someone is always low and spike damage is less problematic (or when damage is too unpredictable for CW).

    That is again from a feral PoV where there is little downside to taking CW, as we already take 20% increased healing and have LotP to allow us to never get in danger on low damage fights. As a balance or resto druid I agree that the talent point is better spent on YG mostly. CW just isn't an oh-shit cooldown, it's used for pre-planning.

    EDIT: @whitestrife nailed it with his explanation of YG or not.
    Last edited by mmocea9cec0ead; 2013-12-09 at 04:48 PM.

  13. #253
    I think the discussion needs to be split into completely separate discussions for healing, DPS and tanking. Now it's just confusion, with half the posts never clarifying what they talk about.

    It should be pretty clear that as a healer, Renewal and Cenarion Ward are both largely useless. Using Cenarion Ward is better than just standing there while YG ticks, but realistically you'd use Rejuvenation instead in that situation and Rejuv+YG will do more good than CW. Renewal is mostly useless as a healer on pretty much every fight, since you have a whole arsenal of instant heals anyway. Ysera's Gift may not be great, but it's okay and that's more than can be said for Renewal and CW.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  14. #254
    The Insane Kujako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    I think the discussion needs to be split into completely separate discussions for healing, DPS and tanking. Now it's just confusion, with half the posts never clarifying what they talk about.

    It should be pretty clear that as a healer, Renewal and Cenarion Ward are both largely useless. Using Cenarion Ward is better than just standing there while YG ticks, but realistically you'd use Rejuvenation instead in that situation and Rejuv+YG will do more good than CW. Renewal is mostly useless as a healer on pretty much every fight, since you have a whole arsenal of instant heals anyway. Ysera's Gift may not be great, but it's okay and that's more than can be said for Renewal and CW.
    It's almost as if the new talents only give the illusion of choice when really they are tailored for specific specs...
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

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  15. #255
    A heal that passively occurs so I don't have to think about it. Sounds good to me!

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitestrife View Post
    I play 10 men and we are 11/14 hc atm. My tree druid friend has ysera and thinks like most of the people writing here. But everytime he dies cause of a mistake i think to myself: wouldnt happen with renev :-)
    I'm curious as to what situations these are: as a healer one should never die outside of damage greater than one's maximum health or someone (possibly them) fucking up to the point that they've wiped the raid and thus making renewal meaningless. Using Spoils of Pandaria Heroic as an example; if your group kills the stone statues spawned by the Mogu Massive too slow you will wipe simply because the raid will take damage that is unhealable. Renewal would not have made a difference.

    Also, Renewal only gives you 30% of your maximum life; if the burst would hit you for more than x+30% it wouldn't have mattered if you used Renewal or not.

    If i have to advice a new owlkin which one to take i would say: forget cw cause its on gcd and like ns+ht its bullshit cause one gcd is difference between living and dieing. I never use NS on me. I fire it on people getting HUGE spikes cause my raid is not as good as Lappee... >.< Learn to love your healthstone, barkskin and renew cause they are off the gcd and can be used INSTANT which made them best for "most players" :-)
    Not bad advice for a new player. In addition to this I would suggest that one develop situational awareness so as to minimize the chance of making a mistake. While mistakes do happen you shouldn't build your plans based off making said mistake.

    If you or your raid dont get spikes at all switch to ysera.

    That can be dependent on the encounter as well. On thok hc there are no spikes at all. On nazgrim hc there are a LOT if your team made some mistakes in execution :-)

    Just my opinion.

    And yeah cw might be good as well but from a dmg perspective? Meeeh.
    Bolded the most important part of this; in a case like this none of the T30 talents would have saved you. Better raid awareness though would have.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Well, no it's not. You still need class balance or bosses won't die. Should you reroll a lock if your guild has an excess of druids and few warlocks? Probably would be beneficial.

    Min/maxing minor details like professions and t30 talents is interesting and somewhat important, but not comparable to that analogy. Learning the best proffessions only takes a couple hours as well... Small price to pay for a few thousand dps

    Once again, renewal is off the gcd, just as "free" as ysera's gift. Idk what content everyone is on and I haven't raided in your guild(s) so maybe you have amazing healers that always keep you close to topped. If this was my experience I'd be leaning toward YG as well.

    However, in my experience it's not uncommon to be hovering low multiple times in an encounter prior to falling ash, shock pulse etc. Abilities you need to be topped for and use and/or use a DR CD as well. If a healer dies on a sloppy pull or you're underhealing fights it becomes even more crucial to have an extra healing CD to use for events like this.

    healthstone is great, but only 20% of your hp, NS is rng depending on trinket procs/crit. I've had it hit for over 1million with HoTW up, and as low as 200-250k. Like I've said before, sometimes, no, the other baseline healing cds are not enough and I'd rather be safe than out of cds and I am using them conservatively already.

    Well the only reason to argue things is at the highest level of play, where skill is relatively similar across guilds. At lower levels skill varies too much, people stand in too much, and you may have one healering carrying the other 4-5. As a resto druid in the 24th best 25 man currently (and ranked in the top 10 resto druids in the world according to proraiders) YG beats renewal for resto hands down. I often never even health stone. And for CW i'd rather Rej where the over healing adds to bloom and i can swiftmend off it.

  18. #258
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Levatio View Post
    I'll have to disagree, ward is far better in my opinion for a druid tank.

    And what exactly do you base this on? What is your experience? Cause what you're saying, isn't really valid, when we have no idea at what level you raid tbh. Sure, maybe CW is better for a Guardian when soloing or doing LFR, but it sure as hell ain't better when doing Heroic raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fappasaurus View Post
    Well, no it's not. You still need class balance or bosses won't die. Should you reroll a lock if your guild has an excess of druids and few warlocks? Probably would be beneficial.

    Min/maxing minor details like professions and t30 talents is interesting and somewhat important, but not comparable to that analogy. Learning the best proffessions only takes a couple hours as well... Small price to pay for a few thousand dps

    Once again, renewal is off the gcd, just as "free" as ysera's gift. Idk what content everyone is on and I haven't raided in your guild(s) so maybe you have amazing healers that always keep you close to topped. If this was my experience I'd be leaning toward YG as well.

    However, in my experience it's not uncommon to be hovering low multiple times in an encounter prior to falling ash, shock pulse etc. Abilities you need to be topped for and use and/or use a DR CD as well. If a healer dies on a sloppy pull or you're underhealing fights it becomes even more crucial to have an extra healing CD to use for events like this.

    healthstone is great, but only 20% of your hp, NS is rng depending on trinket procs/crit. I've had it hit for over 1million with HoTW up, and as low as 200-250k. Like I've said before, sometimes, no, the other baseline healing cds are not enough and I'd rather be safe than out of cds and I am using them conservatively already.

    Sounds like that's an issue with your raid's awareness and or lack of healing. As many people have told you several times now - both Boomkins, Resto, Guardians and a few Ferals - you are quite simply wrong. The people who've been replying to you, have already told you why. You have 14/14 Heroic people telling you, why they don't pick CW or Renewal over YG, yet you're still arguing the same things over and over again......

  19. #259
    Deleted
    @ Trubo:

    a good example in which my tree buddy has problems is nazgrim hc. From our 10 men perspective he gets often focused by the hunter and then trys to reach the safe zone. As long as he moves he has no possibility to hardcast a regrowth. If his NS is on cd he trys to survive incoming dmg with genesis rejus, which wont work if the mage casts a arcanblast and nazgrim jumps to him. You can argue now that the hunter should be stunned, the mage should be silenced or stunned and the jump-dmg alone is not dangerous enough - which is by all means true. But well - what should i say: shit happens. Myb some of you know situations like this from there own exp. I love my guild and as long as we have some tools to press to survive an situation like this - we can kill the boss and get our loot. Ysera in that spoken example would laught at you while you are dying. Ofc after the wipe you can parse the log and you will then see that ysera has healed a few million (which is very low but anyway more then renev) but its a wipe - so what?

    That is just an example of my own exp. There are a lot of contra arguments like: your paladin could cast lay on hands, I could cast ns+ht and so on. Thats true. But my own opinion is that each player realizes his healthbar even faster then the healers if they drop low and renev is like healthstone the fastest way to get back to the safe zone of your health. Besides the realization the healers have a loot of heals in there toolkit, but not many instants... if someone drops under one second you cannot do much to them as a healer and if you can you have then cd on that instant.

    Why did so many people love there healthstone? Because it safes there lives multipli times. Somebody myb say now that they never ever use a hs at all and they never die in og which is cool. Then take ysera by all means - ofc! If you are like me like someone wrote in this threat a bit panicly and you want to be your own judge if you die or life as a range dd - then renev > ysera.

    Its a question of taste in my opinion. Like most talents. Which is how blizz intendet it.
    Last edited by mmoc0f0bcefe31; 2013-12-10 at 06:42 AM.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitestrife View Post
    a good example in which my tree buddy has problems is nazgrim hc. From our 10 men perspective he gets often focused by the hunter and then trys to reach the safe zone. As long as he moves he has no possibility to hardcast a regrowth. If his NS is on cd he trys to survive incoming dmg with genesis rejus, which wont work if the mage casts a arcanblast and nazgrim jumps to him. You can argue now that the hunter should be stunned, the mage should be silenced or stunned and the jump-dmg alone is not dangerous enough - which is by all means true. But well - what should i say: shit happens. Myb some of you know situations like this from there own exp. I love my guild and as long as we have some tools to press to survive an situation like this - we can kill the boss and get our loot. Ysera in that spoken example would laught at you while you are dying. Ofc after the wipe you can parse the log and you will then see that ysera has healed a few million (which is very low but anyway more then renev) but its a wipe - so what?
    You can't only look at the five seconds leading up to a potential death, though. The point of YG is to deal with steady damage and stabilize the raid so you won't have to use NS all the time. It's entirely possible that the reason NS was on cooldown in the first place was because he was specced for Renewal. Unless people are at full health and take two big hits in a row that kill them (which shouldn't really happen on any fight), it's not lack of quick healing between those hits that kills them - it's the fact that they weren't at high enough health before the first hit. Ysera's Gift may not help much in an emergency, but it helps prevent those emergencies in the first place.

    Either way, he should be using Displacer Beast and it shouldn't be an issue to begin with.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

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