Enjoyment of games, skill requirement, grinding

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Problem with current MMOs is that most of them try to go mainstream for most profit and listen to feedback of potential players, including those who aren't really into CRPGs. In result we have games labeled as MMORPG but very weak actual CRPG elements, and even those weak elements are seemingly too much for wide spectrum of MMOs' targeted playerbase.

Omg quote of the year.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Then WHAT is a grind? Most grind are merely something you do before you do something that you truely find fun in the game.

But MOST (not all) of them can be skipped:
- Dark Soul you can actually kill the boss without those weapon
- FF you didn't need to grind the extra level or 2 before killing that boss
- GT you can still win with a slightly worse car if your skill can compensate
- WoW you can down the boss without those VP gear if you are good enough (see top 100 guilds)

I can't really think of a game where it is just ALL grind.

I guess it is all opinion. I feel like games such as Candy Crush Saga.. its just slightly different level after level.

WoW for instance.. has grinds... but they aren't the main part of the game. You might have to kill 100 mobs to go from level 50-51, but there is story, gameplay, skills in there too. I just think people that call WoW a big grind don't much like RPGs in general.

[Grym]

I guess it is all opinion. I feel like games such as Candy Crush Saga.. its just slightly different level after level.

I never played that so I wouldn't know, but if it is anything like Cut The Rope, it is a puzzle game (or something like Chu Chu Rocket), you are expected to have puzzle after puzzle thrown in your face, that is actually the main fun of it.

Grind generally related to "chores that you don't want to do but you do it for reward or it leads you to play the part you want to play", puzzle game since it is the main fun of the game I wouldn't call those a grind.

But then again I guess I have weird opinions XD

[May90]

Grinding is what makes many of the games completely unplayable for me. Take RPGs, for example. I don't mind killing occasional groups of mobs as I go through story or just explore some area. But I hate so much all this "kill 10 Ogres" and "collect 20 herbs" crap... I hate so much a need to kill the same mobs thousand times to get some piece of gear... Such games as WoW or Diablo are completely dead to me for that reason.

In my opinion, a game should be either about story, characters and such, or about immersing and diverse gameplay which doesn't bore you. If a game is solely about doing boring repeatable stuff just to level up or to get a gear up, there is something seriously wrong with it.

I miss those old-school games like Doom 2 or Gobliiins, without "levels", without "quests", and just with a cool gameplay you never get bored of. Or KotoR where you get so engaged with the story and side quests that everything else, such as levels or items, only a little bit enhances the experience, letting you take a break of the story and improve your gear and stats.

[Ferocity]

In my opinion, a game should be either about story, characters and such, or about immersing and diverse gameplay which doesn't bore you. If a game is solely about doing boring repeatable stuff just to level up or to get a gear up, there is something seriously wrong with it.

I miss those old-school games like Doom 2 or Gobliiins, without "levels", without "quests", and just with a cool gameplay you never get bored of. Or KotoR where you get so engaged with the story and side quests that everything else, such as levels or items, only a little bit enhances the experience, letting you take a break of the story and improve your gear and stats.

Doom 2 is First-Person-Shooter, Gobliiins - Adventure. Thus they didn't have "levels" and "quests" in CRPG meaning - those games are simply of different genre. How about "old-school" PC RPGs, those in particular, which are more true to their core? Try Yendorian Tales 3: Tyrants of Thaine (it is abandonware, so can google and download it). Without using "F8" button.

And no. There is nothing wrong with CRPG concepts. Football player won't say that chess is seriously wrong game, and chess player won't say same thing about football.

[Grym]

You seem to be under this (very sad, IMO) impression that somehow "gear grinding" is the core design concept of CRPGs. Not story, or characters, or gameplay elements, or content, or....

But then, as much as story, characters, gameplay involve. IF, non of the raid, offer any sort of loot, or any reward at all, other than the achievement of completion, would you go back and clear 14/14 HC every week?

I know myself, if no reward is there, I would still do it for the challenge, however, once it is cleared I probably won't go back in there for a second time.

[Grym]

That was my entire objection earlier on, that the genre focuses so heavily on just extending playtime through grinds and the actual game itself isn't even an enjoyable experience in and of itself.

The actual game is good, just the replay value isn't. The reward is there for replay value.

[Mormolyce]

If you think about it an RPG is a zero sum game. You kill monsters and level up. You get 5% stronger and fight 5% stronger monsters.

Still they're addictive aren't they?

[May90]

But then, as much as story, characters, gameplay involve. IF, non of the raid, offer any sort of loot, or any reward at all, other than the achievement of completion, would you go back and clear 14/14 HC every week?

Then maybe the very idea of clearing the same content every weak is toxic? WoW claims to have a lot of content as it is, so what's the point introducing additional time spent by repeating the same boring crap? Make it so the entire content is cleared once. Then you create a new character and clear it again, if you want. I think, if a single raid is to be done more than once, the game design is seriously flawed.
Take a look at single player games as an example. In Dragon Age, once you killed a mob, it won't resurrect, so you "clear" the whole content only once. Still, it takes over 100 hours to do so, and lack of repetitive content is what makes people replay the entire game a few times a year. I don't see how this approach is not compatible with MMOs - at least, all instances could be limited to 1 (successful) instance per character.
The same idea is behind dailies. Instead of bombing the same Fel camp every day in order to grind eventually for a special dragon mount, make this quest done only once, but make it hard, so you can't just do it immediately with no skill, get your mount and forget about it. It's hard for me to think of a person who would prefer current system to this.

Grinding sucks

That sums it all up well.

[Ferocity]

You seem to be under this (very sad, IMO) impression that somehow "gear grinding" is the core design concept of CRPGs. Not story, or characters, or gameplay elements, or content, or....

I guess that's where all your views are coming from on this. [/FONT]

Another example of people mistaking CRPG for table-top RPG. Story isn't much important element in RPG. So-called "gear-grinding" is part of character development/advancement, which is core element of CRPG. Some games put more emphasize on specifically "gear" aspect (like Diablo II, III), some less. It doesn't have to be "gear", it can be leveling and yearly blessings/barrel buffs in Might and Magic VI, VII, optimizing in Yendorian Tales III, sphere grid in FF X, leveling and optimizing characters in Wizardry games, professions in Dragon Quest games, leveling for various setups in Shining Force, manipulation and growth of Personas in Persona, etc. Gear is just one of vectors of character development.

Content is based on set of rules. Character development (with so-called "grinding" sub-elements) is part of those rules. Remove or subvert it, and it will be Action/Adventure, perhaps with some small cosmetic flavor of CRPG. Story is core element of Adventure games in video game genres. Adventures are all about story, not CRPGs. Characters are also not super-important in CRPGs (they are important, but not in the way how some players imagine it).

There are dozens upon dozens of games, many of which are classic, which are based on such CRPG concepts, who are you to say that those concepts have no place in video game genre, you don't like it - don't play it. Adventure genre might be exactly for you taste. Or 3D Action/Arcade, which are more about dexterity skills, which some people want to see so much in CRPGs. I don't like sport games, but I don't come and say - what a stupid game, people run like headless chicken after some ball till exhaustion, what a stupid and violent mechanic.

CRPG without any so-called "grind" (aka possibilities of Character Development beyond parameters, which are usually set-in-stone in other game genres) is simply not CRPG. It is core design concept of CRPG, it just so happened that many current players learned what is CRPG from games like WoW and other similar MMOs, or from games like Diablo II which had more to it that just "gear grinding".

And in my example with chess, I showed that questioners, like in original post, simply don't feel the genre. It happens. Genre doesn't have to be liked by absolutely all possible players. But using words "grind", "reward", "challenge" completely out of context is similar to my examples in previous posts. You don't find CRPG appealing and thus refuse to see big picture with elements combined as whole and instead pick one sub-element ("grinding") and say how bad it is.

Current MMO offerings aren't enjoyable to just play, they're only played because people get addicted to that rush of constant rewards.

Remove "gear grind" from WoW and it will become pure 3D Action/Arcade/Adventure game, because it already has most of CRPG elements watered down to point of farse or non-existence. And such games are being beaten once (maybe to be replayed in next year) then replaced by some other game. In Actoin/Arcade game you can "manually dodge same tornado" to overcome same obstacle only so many times (like 2-4) before it becomes boring and no longer teases your dexterity skills. Am I right? If not, I am not saying it is ultimate truth, I simply find such concepts not very lasting/replayable, just like you don't find CRPGs concepts to be appealing.

[May90]

So-called "gear-grinding" is part of character development/advancement, which is core element of CRPG.

What? Are you trying to claim that character development/advancement is impossible without gear-grinding? Have you never played such games as KotoR or Dragon Age, for example? Even story aside, there is still not a single second of grinding in these games: you don't kill a single mob more than once, and you kill them not to get a shiny piece of gear, but to advance in story. And yet you get all the gear and levels you need on your way. You just get them in a process of something interesting, as opposed to doing something uninteresting specifically to get them.

Seeing a lot of answers in this thread such as yours, I wonder if WoW poisoned the game world irreversibly. Really, now there are even people who claim that cRPG without grinding makes no sense. Try to say something like this back in 2000 or so, you would be laughed at hard. But today it's normal.
Wait a few years more, and people will start claiming that games without daily quests are boring, that games in which you can die while leveling are for mathematician nerds, that a quest in which you don't have to kill 20 spiders or collect 50 flowers is stupid. Oh, wait, it's already happening...

Remove "gear grind" from WoW and it will become pure 3D Action/Arcade/Adventure game, because it already has most of CRPG elements watered down to point of farse or non-existence.

What you are trying to say here is, plainly, that WoW is shit in its current state and gear grind is the only way to make people play this piece of crap. Right?

[Twoflower]

Guild wars tried to take out the grind by giving you max lvl chars to pvp with right from the start. That set a high emphasis on skill based pvp. But I guess more people prefer grinding, that's why WoW still has more players...

[Ferocity]

What? Are you trying to claim that character development/advancement is impossible without gear-grinding?

You completely misinterpreted what i wrote. I wrote that "gear grinding" is part of character advancement system, and character advancement system is core element of CRPG.

Have you never played such games as KotoR or Dragon Age, for example?

They had nasty DRM on top of them (SecuROM and EA accordingly) so I didn't actually try them and nothing about those games convinced me to close eyes on their DRM. And Dragon Age is based on tabletop systems, so it isn't pure CRPG. It is just another light-weight CRPG with big emphasize on whatever aspects but not actual "CRPG" aspects. Add on top of that scaling and following same character tropes as IE games... meh.

Even story aside, there is still not a single second of grinding in these games: you don't kill a single mob more than once, and you kill them not to get a shiny piece of gear, but to advance in story. And yet you get all the gear and levels you need on your way. You just get them in a process of something interesting, as opposed to doing something uninteresting specifically to get them.

Many current CRPGs are so watered down that you don't really need to "grind" at all. And in this case, what you call "grinding", other people call "reward for exploration" or by similar terms. Out of games I mentioned, Yendorian Tales III also didn't have respawning mobs (though I'd rather call such approach as limiting replayability, but YS III was simply based around it). But try to zerg through it (or play it as if it is Adventure game) and you will be in world of pain much sooner than you expect. And you would most likely call it a grind, because without thorough exploration you could make game completely unwinnable.

Also... where is CRPG's based challenge in DA if you get all you need just by following main storyline? What about "exploration" aspect? By which I don't mean "tunnels have a lot of intersections, all of which lead to dead-end with some bonus gold", I mean more in terms of classic CRPGs. And it is basically what it is, current players, who never knew what CRPGs are about, would be lost forever in very first (or second if they are very lucky) dungeon of Phantasy Star II.

Also what concerns combat... "to advance story". Combat is what often "makes or breaks CRPG". CRPGs are about exploration of lands, filled with dangers and monsters. Combat doesn't serve filler role as "to advance story" but as important gameplay element.

Really, now there are even people who claim that cRPG without grinding makes no sense. Try to say something like this back in 2000 or so, you would be laughed at hard. But today it's normal.

? What about Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Wizardry and lots of other games I mentioned? All people see in those is "grinding", well, they simply aren't into the genre. Yet again people (mostly those, who try to "judge" RPG same way like football players would look at chess from football point of view) use word "grind" completely out of context. What isn't normal is that currently there are barely any CRPGs around on PC. Last remarkable PC one was Torchlight II last year, and even that was of ARPG subgenre.

Wait a few years more, and people will start claiming that games without daily quests are boring, that games in which you can die while leveling are for mathematician nerds, that a quest in which you don't have to kill 20 spiders or collect 50 flowers is stupid.

This doesn't make sense at all. I am not even sure you ever tried to play CRPG games and judge them based on experience with Diablo, WoW and DA. Try to find some shareware copy of Demise: Rise of the Ku'tan. Or try Might and Magic VI, specifically dungeon Darkmoor Castle. Those are just most colorful examples which come to mind. I am afraid that both - you and MMO developers - completely lost grasp what CRPGs are about. Just go and ask on some FF X forum would they be happy if FF X would consist entirely of Blitzball or Lightning Dodging mini-games instead of CTB fights, or if FF IX players would be happy if game consisted entirely of Tetra Master fights instead of ATB battles. I am not even sure you and many other current players are really up for actual CRPG challenge (aka "can die while leveling"). If you could close your eyes on graphic side and check same Yendorian Tales III, you could find something closely resembling what I am talking about (though it has relatively easy start).

What you are trying to say here is, plainly, that WoW is shit in its current state and gear grind is the only way to make people play this piece of crap. Right?

WoW was just an example here. I didn't call it "shit", I simply said that it barely has any CRPG elements and mechanics left (especially in comparison to what it had before) and that it is driven by mechanics from mostly other genres.

[Hraklea]

Well it's not like you couldn't die in those games.

Yes, it is. For example, there's no chance to die during a daily quest in WoW, unless you're insanely noob or using ilvl 10 gear.

Does this make c&c games a chess?
.....well it does kinda.....with paper, scizor and rock.

If C&C means Command & Conquer, I've never played it.

Aren't most games essentially grindy? Mario 64, you have to go back to the same world multiple times to get different stars... grindy? WoW may have grinds, but that doesn't make it all a grind.

Doing things is the same scenario to achieve different goals everytime =/= killing the same mob over and over to drop an item.

[May90]

Ferocity, I don't get it. Let's not separate CRPG from other subgenres and just consider RPG in general. RPG is about playing the role of character, whether in a deep story or in exploration-based adventures. That's all. Now, CRPG simply emphasizes development of stats of the character, not necessarily completely neglecting story and such.

So, let's make it short: CRPG is an RPG in which you focus on developing your character. Right?

Now, I don't see how grinding has to be a part of it. Again, there are different definitions; I by "grinding" mean something that is repeated, such as killing the same boss multiple times, clearing the same area multiple times, doing the same quest multiple times. These things poison CRPG. Instead of forcing players to do the same repeatable stuff over and over, it's better instead to create vast locations with dungeons you can complete only once, which will force you to move to new locations. Or simply make efficiency of such grinding decrease with time, say, the more times you kill the boss, the worse items you get from it. There are many ways around it. But, it seems, most developers are just too lazy to continually add new stuff to the game, so the only other way they can make people spend thousands hours on the game is to force them to kill a boss 20 times before they finally get that damned helmet, then proceed to the next boss-grind, and so on.
Too bad players don't seem to understand how they are being raped and continue investing money and time in the games that are essentially dull and boring. But people want that rare mount so badly, they are ready to do a daily 50 days in a row, because, hell, reward should be worth it, right? The problem is, these people forget why they started the game in the first place.

CRPGs are about exploration of lands, filled with dangers and monsters. Combat doesn't serve filler role as "to advance story" but as important gameplay element.

No, that is not a definition of CRPG, it's just kind of them. CRPG don't have to involve exploration of lands (Diablo 2 is a good example of it). But, even if use your definition, we can't forget about Fallout series with next to none grinding (no mobs respawn, few "kill N dudes" quests, and a complex character development system). The fact that modern MMOs are mostly CRPGs doesn't mean that CRPGs have to have grinding. It just means that MMOs are a very bad kind of CRPGs.

[melodramocracy]

I don't mind a grind in MMOs at all, as long as what's being carried out has a bit of risk to it. Having to kill 100 mobs that are all 1-shots is pretty awful. Having to kill 100 mobs that can kick the shit out of me if I make a mistake is far more interesting. (ah, memories of camping tusker guards in AC). Having said that, there does need to be some benefit or goal of doing this sort of thing, even if it's something as basic as 'lets find out what's in the back of this cave'.

Conversely, in a game like D3, the grind becomes pointless to me, as the gameplay itself doesn't significantly change once you get to a certain point. While I do enjoy a session of the game now and again just for the carnage, and it's mildly amusing to watch bosses drop in 5 seconds, it's not something I'd ever see myself investing significant time into.... more gear, so the boss dies a second quicker? No. This title, as many others, is at its best when defeating it is a challenge.

As far as games that give you no actual reward for completing a task? I'm fine with that. As someone who loves games like Q3, where the current match IS the reward, so I don't need, and actually don't want, any sort of progression system in a game like that. Same goes for racing games. I don't mind the whole 'unlock the car' thing as it understandably extends the single player factor, but I don't really need that to enjoy the game, just give me a season and make the AI really really challenging. Or give me a setup like iRacing offers.

Not every game out there needs to be progress based.

[Ferocity]

Ferocity, I don't get it. Let's not separate CRPG from other subgenres and just consider RPG in general. RPG is about playing the role of character, whether in a deep story or in exploration-based adventures. That's all. Now, CRPG simply emphasizes development of stats of the character, not necessarily completely neglecting story and such.

Story and setting are just a motivation and background, not a primary element. Sometimes they are underdone or overdone.

Now, I don't see how grinding has to be a part of it. Again, there are different definitions; I by "grinding" mean something that is repeated, such as killing the same boss multiple times, clearing the same area multiple times, doing the same quest multiple times. These things poison CRPG. Instead of forcing players to do the same repeatable stuff over and over, it's better instead to create vast locations with dungeons you can complete only once, which will force you to move to new locations. Or simply make efficiency of such grinding decrease with time, say, the more times you kill the boss, the worse items you get from it.

There are great CRPGs which have enemies die forever. But those are minority and seldom they can make up for it by exploration and other elements. Meanwhile repeating some dungeon to test how more powerful you became or just get gold for that one Armor you want from vendor is element specific to CRPG. Any kind of diminishing returns do nothing but penalize playing through the game. Yet again, people tend to exaggerate by saying "killing same mob 1000 times" - there was no such situation where you were forced to do that. "Replenishable" locations just adds metagoal or helps to fix fault approach by getting bonus skills (via experience and more level-ups) and investing them where needed, getting upper hand by getting gold for better weapons/armor, etc.

Too bad players don't seem to understand how they are being raped and continue investing money and time in the games that are essentially dull and boring.

What concerns modern PC games I somewhat agree. Specifically what concerns CRPG genre. They can be done in couple evenings without any possible metagoals and penalize actual CRPG mechanics (e.g., by scaling everything to character's level) if those even have any impact on gameplay (e.g., manual dodging/striking having more impact than any stat). It leads to people believing that it is exactly how CRPGs should play, while in fact it is anything but CRPG.
[/quote] But people want that rare mount so badly, they are ready to do a daily 50 days in a row, because, hell, reward should be worth it, right? The problem is, these people forget why they started the game in the first place. [quote]
Mount isn't necessary to "win" the game. It is simply part of some metagoal (and quite cosmetic at that). It isn't forced upon player and player has some additional reason to do such-and-such daily. When people start playing CRPG (doesn't matter MMO or single-player), they don't want to be done with it in one evening. And if game is good, they start making various metagoals to get absolutely everything out of it - like, reaching maximum level possible (even if it is very-very high), getting all possible items, completing all quests, etc. They definitely don't play it to read some story, watch some cutscenes and be done with it - there are books and videos for that.

No, that is not a definition of CRPG, it's just kind of them. CRPG don't have to involve exploration of lands (Diablo 2 is a good example of it). But, even if use your definition, we can't forget about Fallout series with next to none grinding (no mobs respawn, few "kill N dudes" quests, and a complex character development system). The fact that modern MMOs are mostly CRPGs doesn't mean that CRPGs have to have grinding. It just means that MMOs are a very bad kind of CRPGs.

CRPG without exploration is anything else but CRPG. Diablo 2 had exploration element, though it was somewhat inverted because Diablo had randomly generated overworld and dungeons. Fallout and Arcanum had interesting character development systems. And they had opportunity for grinding. I never liked Fallout (btw, which had random encounters on world map) because of complete lack of diversity (huge "con" for CRPG) and timer, which I failed to meet because I wanted, you know, have my time in CRPG and not being pushed asap to finish it... which goes completely against what CRPGs are about.

About "grinding" again. Ain't current popular MMOs free from any "grind"? In same WoW you do couple quest and outlevel zone, you are max level in a week. How less "grind" there should be? Max level right after creating character with all profs maxed (already trivial) and gold cap (somewhat trivial but meaningless), thus completely removing concept of character's progress?

Now, why out of all CRPGs bring single examples of those which were as light-weight as possible (e.g., same Fallout) and reached popularity mostly for being extremely accessible and completable in couple sessions? Apart from Diablo there was also Demise. Apart from Fallout there was also Might and Magic.

Frankly, you (and many other people) just like Action and Adventure games (nothing wrong with that), where it is hard to make some long-term metagoal (which people exaggerate as "lol grind one mob") and where is no need to explore anything. You played WoW and Diablo due to their popularity and because of Action and Adventure factors. Fallout also was more like Adventure game. Your opinion and statements about CRPG genre are those of "outsider", its same old: football player trying to prove that chess is wrong game because it has no body movement elements and involves too much sitting. Fine, but don't try to make it sound like some kind of ultimate truth, just agree that you don't enjoy CRPGs.

[Ferocity]

You're also still clinging to this idea that "CRPG" MUST mean grinds, artificial gating, and timesinks when it's really just MMOs that do it due to wanting to milk players as much as they can.

Did you play any game out of those I mentioned? Try Demise, try Might and Magic I-VI (Yendorian Tales III if you will find Xeen too easy), try Wizardry I-VII, try Dragon Quest I-VIII (probably IX too, but I didn't play it yet >.<), well, I could continue listing games, I just listed well-known or significant ones. Maybe then you will stop using word "grind" completely out of context and admit that you are simply not into CRPGs.

Judging CRPGs by WoW and Fallout is like judging 3D Action games by Tetris 3D.

[May90]

Story and setting are just a motivation and background, not a primary element. Sometimes they are underdone or overdone.

It depends on the game. CRPG has to do with general gameplay. It doesn't have anything to do with story being or not being a primary element in the game. Neverwinter Nights, for example, is definitely CRPG (just look at character abilities, feats, etc. there), and yet the story is its main component.

Meanwhile repeating some dungeon to test how more powerful you became or just get gold for that one Armor you want from vendor is element specific to CRPG.

Sure, if goal is testing. If goal is trying to get a piece of gear dropped from the boss by RNG, then it's the worst example of grinding.

About "grinding" again. Ain't current popular MMOs free from any "grind"? In same WoW you do couple quest and outlevel zone, you are max level in a week. How less "grind" there should be? Max level right after creating character with all profs maxed (already trivial) and gold cap (somewhat trivial but meaningless), thus completely removing concept of character's progress?

What? Even though leveling in WoW doesn't take long, it's one of the most grinding levelings ever developed. One of the problem is that your character is so overpowered that literally kills mobs and even quest "bosses" with 2 hits (at least, in case of some classes, such as Hunter). I remember that quest in Arathi Highlands where you have to kill Raptors to get 10 or 15 pieces of something and only like 20% of them dropped a piece. I killed them with 1 Arcane Shot, and yet had to kill 50 of them to get finished with quest. What is it if not grinding?
I'd prefer leveling taking just the same amount of time, but at the same time being challenging and without stupid "kill X things" quests. These quests are what killed MMO genre, and I don't understand how so many people tolerate them.

Your opinion and statements about CRPG genre are those of "outsider", its same old: football player trying to prove that chess is wrong game because it has no body movement elements and involves too much sitting. Fine, but don't try to make it sound like some kind of ultimate truth, just agree that you don't enjoy CRPGs.

I enjoy CRPGs, it's one of my favorite genres. I don't enjoy MMO CRPGs that they make these days and that are especially grindy. That's why I posted in this thread in the first place. But you seem to be content with them, and you even claim that grinding is a necessary part of CRPGs. The problem is, it's not just you, but majority of MMO players these days think the same way. I haven't played MMOs since 2003 or so, beside 2 months in WoW and 2 months in SWTOR, so maybe that makes my insight a little more independent and lets me clearly see how bad the current state of CRPGs is.

[Ferocity]

Yes, I played tons of those and others. I don't know how old you are, but statistically I was probably playing CRPGs before you were born!

So how is killing one mob for ages is different from save-reloading on same L5-L6 chest to get, e.g., decent obsidian gear in MM III-V? Or Obsidian Photon Katana in MM 3? Or reclearing dungeons in MM VI whlie trying to get level as maximum as possible, DQ and FF just giving more natural solutions to this. It isn't really required to beat the game, just like infamous Pindleskin runs weren't really required.

Might and Magic VI. You look behind hill and see.... dozens upon dozens of mobs in one small area (especially thrilling experience in dungeon - you don't know how many mobs can fit in one room). If you are low level it means "grind", slow "kill them all". Combined with very non-linear design of most of dungeons it is just everything that current CRPG players are running away from.

Now, Wizradry. If you played those - it is exact example of "kill enemies till you get level-up or two or you will be demolished on next floor/in next dungeon".

Earlier Final Fantasy. They punished rush, so if you were in rush, you had to do more than usual amount of "grinding". Flame boss in FF V especially comes to mind. Wall Boss in FF IV. Later FFs simply put everything less or more challenging behind optional things, but even then some people find that "defeating Judge Ghis requires a lot of grind"... FF IV - killing PuffPuffs (?) for hours to be able to get best gear in game? FF III, V - maxing all jobs? FF VII - Materia "grind"? FF VIII - kill 20 Tonberryes for 1 Master Tonberry and AP "grind" to unlock GF abilities? FF X - "grind" to kill Penance without Zanmato? FF XII - all those Elite Marks and optional Espers.... required solid party.

I could continue and continue, I only took few examples from some of those classic CRPGs.

I don't know how you played all those games and didn't see "grind" in them. You probably tired of MMOs and just want to make some reasoning for that.

CRPGs have always been one of my favorite genres. Again, you seem very confused about the differences between CRPGs and MMOs, as well as confused about the difference between "grinds" in MMOs and simply playing through the game in a CRPG.

MMOs have greatly deviated from actual CRPG genre, i think on this point we agree.

Since you mentioned Xeen...I could just imagine getting to Sheltem's castle and an NPC there says, "Sorry, you must be Exalted with the Dragon Pharoah to enter." which requires you to do a set of 10 daily quests for 7 days. That would be sad times.

World of Xeen has a lot of so-called "artificial gating", much more than any other game. When you start game, you can't just go and enter any dungeon, because it requires doing some other task first (example, Tomb of Terror requirs you to thoroughly clear Temple of Yak). In fact if you go straight to Sheltem without doing various prerequisites you will automatically die. Castle Kalindra - which is "gated" by Energy Disks? Newcastle, "gated" by Megacredits (together with Xeen's Slayer Sword required to beat Clouds)? WoW attunements and "gating" look like fetch quests in comparison to WoX and MM 3. Oh and you can always try Dragon Lair (or Dungeon of Death) and get owned painfully till your characters "grinded" enough EXP and gear. Or any other dungeon (or that one Armadillo road) for which you got key but is too weak to clear yet. And that infamous phrase "Got a pass? Back off." "Back off" actually sounds in game like "F*ck off".

Sure, if goal is testing. If goal is trying to get a piece of gear dropped from the boss by RNG, then it's the worst example of grinding.

In most cases that RNG piece of gear isn't really required. It is simply part of some metagoal. And if CRPG doesn't give you much freedom in making various long-term metagoals... from CRPG point of view simply means it is just another one of those games which you'll beat in couple of evenings and forget.

What? Even though leveling in WoW doesn't take long, it's one of the most grinding levelings ever developed. One of the problem is that your character is so overpowered that literally kills mobs and even quest "bosses" with 2 hits (at least, in case of some classes, such as Hunter). I remember that quest in Arathi Highlands where you have to kill Raptors to get 10 or 15 pieces of something and only like 20% of them dropped a piece.

Current WoW has big problems with godmode leveling, I won't argue. What concerns Raptors... it is just another example of "Here is specific goal (motivation) to kill some amount of such and such enemies with option to just ignore it and find other convenient goal". Though I am not fan of low droprate quest items. But you could combine it with mining/skinning, some other quest. And killing a lot of enemies in order to proceed was standard thing in CRPGs. CRPG-fans find it fun to kill mobs all day, find treasures [while slowly moving down the storyline]. It is nowadays PC games try to make it up by "solid story" to lampshade any gameplay activity (and usually to lampshade horrible battle engine, like in IE games).

I enjoy CRPGs, it's one of my favorite genres. I don't enjoy MMO CRPGs that they make these days and that are especially grindy.

Where is the "grind" in today's MMO? Only if in "endgame" content? There were always Ragnarok Online, Ultima Online and other MMOs in the past, which were way more "grindy". Just like Bovinity Divinity, I think you are simply tired of MMOs and trying to reason it by a lot of "grind", meanwhile earlier MMOs and CRPGs had like 100 times more of so-called "grind".