Stand Your Ground Law Facing New Test In GA

[mahananaka]

People need to educate themselves a little. Stand your ground was not called once in Zimmermans trail.

The Defense team of Zimmerman did not use stand your ground to dismiss charges. But it was used in securing a not guilty verdict. All the defense had to do was plead not guilty by reason of self defense and then make sure language regarding stand your ground was written in the jury's instructions. Here http://www.scribd.com/doc/153354467/...y-Instructions is a link to the jury instructions given to jurors of the trial. Now a quote from that document.

In deciding whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you must judge him by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was used. The danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, George Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Zimmerman's defense team and the prosecutors would have discussed and agreed to what would be in that document. Jury instructions are extremely delicate things, the are actually the grounds of many appeals and mistrials due to how easily they can bias a jury. Those instructions were written that way, with the bold part being allowed, because Florida is a stand your ground state. In states that do not have similar stand your ground laws enacted, but just normal self-defense laws, instructions like these would instead state that if the defendant had the ability to reasonable retreat to safety, they are required to do so. Again as I started above Zimmerman's attorneys did not use stand your ground to have the charges dismissed, but it was a major part of their strategy for the trial.

[rhandric]

The Defense team of Zimmerman did not use stand your ground to dismiss charges. But it was used in securing a not guilty verdict. All the defense had to do was plead not guilty by reason of self defense and then make sure language regarding stand your ground was written in the jury's instructions. Here http://www.scribd.com/doc/153354467/...y-Instructions is a link to the jury instructions given to jurors of the trial. Now a quote from that document.



Zimmerman's defense team and the prosecutors would have discussed and agreed to what would be in that document. Jury instructions are extremely delicate things, the are actually the grounds of many appeals and mistrials due to how easily they can bias a jury. Those instructions were written that way, with the bold part being allowed, because Florida is a stand your ground state. In states that do not have similar stand your ground laws enacted, but just normal self-defense laws, instructions like these would instead state that if the defendant had the ability to reasonable retreat to safety, they are required to do so. Again as I started above Zimmerman's attorneys did not use stand your ground to have the charges dismissed, but it was a major part of their strategy for the trial.

But the existence, or lack thereof, of SYG, would have made no difference to the Zimmerman trial - at the time he "stood his ground", he couldn't flee (per the evidence presented, he was underneath Martin)...so even if he had a reasonable duty to retreat, he still had the right to defend himself, without retreating if it's not reasonably possible.

[Tychus]

Again as I started above Zimmerman's attorneys did not use stand your ground to have the charges dismissed, but it was a major part of their strategy for the trial.

As it should be.

[darkwarrior42]

I don't really see how this is a test of the law, aside from biases for/against the law. If he argues that he was standing his ground and the jury disagrees, that doesn't mean the law was tested and failed, it means that the jury disagreed that what he did met the conditions of the law.

[Kraenen]

SYG is one of the worst things to happen to American culture in a long time, we have to stop it before the country goes down the shitter

[rhandric]

I don't really see how this is a test of the law, aside from biases for/against the law. If he argues that he was standing his ground and the jury disagrees, that doesn't mean the law was tested and failed, it means that the jury disagreed that what he did met the conditions of the law.

People (read: those who disagree with SYG) like to see any potential murder/self defense/gun-related death case (except those that don't fit their agenda!) as a "test" of SYG laws.

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SYG is one of the worst things to happen to American culture in a long time, we have to stop it before the country goes down the shitter

Why?

[THE Bigzoman]

allowed George Zimmerman to walk free after gunning down unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin last year in Florida

Stopped here. It will be a while before you can gain my trust again.


Thankfully, I saw NYC in this thread. Hopefully he can make up for your bullshit and engage me in interesting dialogue.

[iperson]

Under these circumstances Joe Hendrix wouldn't have to invoke it either then, he could just say "self-defense" and walk.

What bothers me isn't so much the way we're talking about the law, it's how murder is coming to only be called murder when it's committed in a poor urban area. When somebody shoots another person in a suburb or a gated community, the excuses and semantics start flying.

Was the old man on top of him smashing his head into the pavement? I must have missed that from your link...

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SYG is one of the worst things to happen to American culture in a long time, we have to stop it before the country goes down the shitter

Yes, it should be illegal to stand up to criminals who threaten you...

[Coombs]

SYG is one of the worst things to happen to American culture in a long time, we have to stop it before the country goes down the shitter

Shooting random thuglets and old people doesn't even begin to approach the problems that American culture has currently.

[Feronar]

So a guy comes to your house at 4 in the morning, and tries to get in. To any normal person, he would look like he was trying to break in. When he didn't answer the homeowner's questions, stop advancing, or raise his hands, that could have very easily been perceived as a threat.

According to the article, "Westbrook's case of Alzheimer's was so advanced that at times he could barely speak." So why was he allowed outside unaccompanied? If anyone faces charges in this case, it should be his negligent caretakers or family.

[Roxinius]

Why was an old man with such a severe case of Alzheimer even allowed out without some kind of supervision in the first place?

probably because the family of the man cant afford a live in nurse to be there round the clock my grand father had Alzheimer and 2 nights he ended up leaving his house going back to where his old house used to be only reason we knew was because of the medical alert bracelet he wore

[mahananaka]

But the existence, or lack thereof, of SYG, would have made no difference to the Zimmerman trial - at the time he "stood his ground", he couldn't flee (per the evidence presented, he was underneath Martin)...so even if he had a reasonable duty to retreat, he still had the right to defend himself, without retreating if it's not reasonably possible.

I would actually argue that SYG instructions had many ramifications to that trial. It alters how the police investigates it, thus changes what the prosecution has to work with. It alters how the state attorneys presents the evidence that they are given, as well as the Zimmerman's defense strategy. It alters the jurors discussions in the deliberation room, and it affects how the judge answers questions the the jury has.

As it should be.

I agree as well, I wasn't condemning Zimmerman's attorneys, in fact imo it would have been grounds for a mistrial had they not used the strategy. What I condemn is the law itself, I think it is a poorly written law that can be used very broadly and dangerously.

[Ticj]

Whaaat? I haven't even heard of this and I live here xD

[NYC17]

Stopped here. It will be a while before you can gain my trust again.


Thankfully, I saw NYC in this thread. Hopefully he can make up for your bullshit and engage me in interesting dialogue.

Eh, honestly there isn't really much to discuss. I guess "a shadowy figure" walking at you without responding can be considered a dangerous situation, but that's the very problem with SYG; it's subjective as shit. To me "shadowy figure" screams post fuck-up narrative, but it is what it is.

[Deleted]

That law is just common sense. If someone attacks you on the street, why shouldnt you be able to defend yourself? It doesnt matter why or who the attacker is, they could be carrying a knife or a syringe infected with AIDS or maybe they want to rape you so it's better to shoot them and ask questions later. Every law can be abused. Stuff happens.

[NYC17]

That law is just common sense. If someone attacks you on the street, why shouldnt you be able to defend yourself? It doesnt matter why or who the attacker is, they could be carrying a knife or a syringe infected with AIDS or maybe they want to rape you so it's better to shoot them and ask questions later. Every law can be abused. Stuff happens.

And none of that happened in this instance. Misdirection, what?

[Limmy]

How is this case anything related to "stand your ground", "self defense" or even "Trayvon Martin"
the 74 year old was outside of the house yelling
from the article he wasn't even breaking in, just outside
if you want to reference to something similar I'd say that story about the black guy who crashed his car, got out and went to a near by house to ask for help
who then got shot by the police because the resident of the house thought she was in danger, guy banging at the door

[RicardoZ]

If your contention is that all you want is for this man to be charged and face a jury, you sure are doing a poor job of showing us that you won't be upset by the results if they go a certain way.

I never claimed to be an unbiased hard news source and not sure why people are expecting me to be one when I post on a forum.

[Masoner]

The controversial legislation that allowed George Zimmerman to walk free after gunning down unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin last year in Florida is up for another probe, but this time it will be held in a Georgia criminal court.

Actually, I'm getting ahead of myself: I hope it will be held in a Georgia criminal court, as the Walker County sheriff's department is still unsure as to whether or not it will press charges against Joe Hendrix after he shot 74 year old Alzheimer's patient Ron Westbrook.

Here's the story:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/04...-ground-debate

It's going to be interesting to see how this case plays out now that the victim is a 74 year old white man with Alzheimer's and not a 17 year old black kid in a hoodie.

Who was pounding a Latino mans head in the the ground.

It's kinda important to not leave that out.

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How is this case anything related to "stand your ground", "self defense" or even "Trayvon Martin"
the 74 year old was outside of the house yelling
from the article he wasn't even breaking in, just outside
if you want to reference to something similar I'd say that story about the black guy who crashed his car, got out and went to a near by house to ask for help
who then got shot by the police because the resident of the house thought she was in danger, guy banging at the door

The man was covered in blood.

The officers were responding to the 911 call of a man beating on this families door at night.

the offericers found him walking down the street (away from home) covered in blood.

they told him to stop and get on the ground he kept walking so they shot him.

[Payday]

I never claimed to be an unbiased hard news source and not sure why people are expecting me to be one when I post on a forum.

Sure, maybe that was a bit unfair of me. It did seem like you were trying to paint a portrait that wasn't exactly accurate though. Oh well. If this man isn't charged, the cries of racism will be resounding..but really they are just totally different circumstances.