View Poll Results: Do max level 5 mans still have a purpose?

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  • No they're obsolete

    13 4.32%
  • Yes, they're vital

    165 54.82%
  • They serve their purpose at the beginning of an expac

    110 36.54%
  • Replace them with Heroic Scenarios.

    13 4.32%
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  1. #41
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alduron View Post
    Forget Jin'do, what about… hell anything in Grim Batol or Corborus and Ozruk in Stonecore?
    I have no idea what your issue with corborus was, but grim batol and ozruk were fine if you were tanking capable ^^ (not a clothie). I tanked them on my enhance at the start of the expansion sometimes after the tank failed. Grim batol similarly you could manage alot of the run through doing the drakes well.

    Jin'do really needed 3~ people at first to handle the fight. Maybe less if you were an excellent ranged spec. That's what made it a pug breaker
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  2. #42
    I despise scenarios. The fun of WOW is having a tank, healer and dps. Scenarios take that away.

    5-mans are not dying at all. Yes right now at the end of an expac, there really isnt gear to gain from them besides a few times when you just hit 90 on an alt. But there are still challenge modes...and peopel still run them for quick valor/justice.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by skulmar View Post
    I did that, but not because of the dungeon, rather because the attitude of the players who blamed everything that went wrong on the tank or healer.

    If anything this attitude has gotten worse since then, and now I just que for LFR as a DPS despite the fact that I am perfectly capable of tanking it because I know that the first time anyone makes a mistake I will have a dozen people howling for my blood.*


    *For example, this week in LFR I saw multiple people tell a tank they hoped he "got cancer and died slowly and painfully in real life" because one of the DPS ninja pulled a trash pack and the tank didn't pick it up fast enough to prevent several players deaths.
    You're right, I'm not using LFD/LFR as anything else than dps, if I can help it, either - however, that still makes hard content unsuitable for tools grouping people randomly. Hence, in my opinion, LFD/LFR content should be fairly easy (but still require some tactics, total faceroll would make me fall asleep - fights like Nazgrim or Garrosh in LFR are okay-ish in that regard), and more/really challenging stuff should be kept to premades (like Challenge Modes, and Flex+ raids are), maybe with better rewards for Challenge Modes.

    What someone wrote about (if it's true), about max level WoD being about non-HC level 100 dungeons for gearing up, and Heroics for premades on top of that, could be a good way to tackle it. (if you could gear up for at least Flex or Normal raids without HCs)

  4. #44
    Stood in the Fire Zantera's Avatar
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    I would be pretty sad if 5-mans vanished completely. Scenarios are FINE, but I think they should be an addition to what you can do, and not the BIG thing you do. I think Questing > Scenarios > 5-Man > Raiding is a good evolution-ladder.
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  5. #45
    hc 5 mans are absolutely vital for game - chalenging 5 man offering a step in gear progress are even more vital - if we had those this expansion people whould complain way less about lfr i bet if it wasnt made a required step in gearing up right after dinging 90 -_- gutted out 5 mans this expansion hurt the game very badly in my eyes - like really almost eveyrone i know in game says that the only thing which they miss from cata was the initila 5 mans and zandalari dungeon they were god damn fun to run - a bitch to cap vp on alts but damn they were chalenging and fun >< ofc if u went there with the full team in fl gear they were piss eay but for the gearing up curve - they were totaly brilliant ><

    i know its my opinion only but the thing i mostly like in expansion releaes was this initial dungeon farming for gear - which in this expansion sadly was reduced to 2 days farm and 2nd day was only for 1 item which just refused to drop first day of farm -_- left me really .... unsatisfied -_-

    and like people pointing out in differnet threads - ofc there were hcalenge modes but they were totaly irrelevant for 99.9% of wow community since they didnt offer any gear progress so most people just ignored them completly. what we need in WoD is not another chalenge modes we need chalenging hcs maybe without allowing random lfd group but requireing premades like hc sceanarios does ?
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2013-12-05 at 01:49 PM.

  6. #46
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Personally what I would love is to see scenarios and dungeons combined to implement a playstyle similar to LOTRO's Skirmishes, and then be required for the main story quest. The idea is that all non-optional content (e.g. anything outside of raids/PVP) has a choice for how you want to run it:

    1) You can queue solo, possibly with an NPC related to the story to help, for specific rewards
    2) You can queue with a group (anything from 2-5 people, using Flex technology likely) and get more rewards based on the number, with the fights scaling naturally

    IMO this would be the perfect solution and appease everybody: Your players that don't want to do group content or want to be a badass like Conan or other heroes can solo queue and get certain rewards, while those who enjoy group content can group for them and get slightly better rewards for doing the "harder" version. This would also allow dungeons to be more integrated with the storyline, and bring back the "Go do the dungeon" quests as part of a story.

    For example, let's take Stormstout Brewery in MoP. Our hypothetical player gets a quest as part of the storyline to go there, with a nice quest reward and XP for completion. They decide that they don't want to do it with a group, and queue solo. Inside the instance, they find Chen Stormstout who offers his assistance; in this hypothetical situation let's say that the player is a Mage, so Chen performs the tanking role and has some kind of mechanic to heal himself; the bosses are simpler but with raid-like mechanics, with Li Li calling out advice to help facilitate them (e.g. "Hey watch out, that thing's getting ready to explode!" for a run away mechanic). Our Mage completes the instance (don't pay too much attention to the fights in the real dungeon, as they would likely be changed in this example) and gets his reward.

    Another group of friends have the quest for Stormstout and decide to queue together; let's say they are a Protection Warrior, a Holy Paladin and a Windwalker Monk. In this case, Chen doesn't offer his aid because "You look like you can handle yourself" and the group progresses through the dungeon. They get more JP/VP/whatever and slightly better loot because they are facing harder mobs due to having 3 players instead of just 1.

    Now obviously an idea like that would need to be fleshed out, but IMO that would be a great way to satisfy everybody. In LOTRO I would often log on just to run a skirmish or two, spending about an hour, and walk away with some Skirmish Marks (used for gear throughout leveling) and experience with little or no investment; I could run it with others for harder challenges and more rewards (and Skirmishes also had three difficulties) and I think it was a great idea that hasn't seen much outside of that game.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Falu View Post
    If they manage to keep 5-man dungeons relevant throughout the expansion's patches, I'd be pleased.
    Aslong as they don't get lazy... I like me some quallity 5 mans.
    I like Scenarios too though, both have their place.
    Good news. They've said they're going to update dungeons with each patch, at least the heroic versions, and add more as the patches come out. With the return of "max level normal mode dungeons" and heroics being the more gear-dependent higher difficulty versions, we'll probably see them all the way up to the final raid.
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  8. #48
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixuzcc View Post
    I do. They're a perfect introduction to raiding. Questing > Scenarios > 5 Mans > Raiding is a very fluid and natural progression.
    Yeah for the first patch maybe. After that, they're totally obsolete.

    The difficulty should be scaled off of the combined average iLevel of the group, and the loot could get better based on time (e.g., patches). Those 463s do NOTHING at the end of MoP when you can find 496s in TI; there is 0 point to do LFD except once daily for VP (and even then you can get VP much easier).

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  9. #49
    Epic! Warlord Booty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    TBH I think they are only useful at the start, and even that's dubious. I would like them more if they incorporated more raid-like mechanics.
    I agree and disagree. They seem only useful at the start, leveling, and getting some initial gear. But if they incorporated more raid mechanics, people would complain about them being to hard at the start, and then become faceroll toward the end - unless they scale to group average ilevel.

  10. #50
    ATM you can completely ignore 5mans once you reach 90 just get to the timelese isle and farm 496 token armor you won't get a weapon but you will get enough equip together to just walk into lfr.

    I think for the time being 5 mans are simply useless because them having been taken out of the gearing proces.

    At some level i like 5 mans because you get to play a holy trinity game, which can be fun in itself.

    at some level I see scenarios more as a thing that dps can do to spend the time while waiting for their lfd que to pop.

  11. #51
    Blizzard stated that they will be bringing 5 Mans back in WoD, and scale the difficulty up to make them more challenging (Much like the start of Cata). They also have two or three extra dungeons planned to release in a content patch during the expac, so the gear isn't terrible.

    Dungeons are good as long as they stay challenging, imo. I dislike them now in MoP where my 551 iLvl DPS can pretty much global a boss in Siege of Niuzao. They should make them a little more challenging or up the ante at the end of an expac or in the middle, to make them fresh and worth doing.

  12. #52
    I much prefer them to scenarios. The problem is MOP 5 mans got too easy too fast.

  13. #53
    Immortal Sigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    They help people understand their role in a group before entering raiding, since they're a scaled down version of standard raiding roles.
    by which you mean DPS standing in fire, screaming "Go!Go!Go!Go!" and bitching at the healer for no keeping them alive when pulling mobs instead of letting the tank do it ?

    Yep, if that's the case 5 man dungeons defintly teach them their rolls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acelius View Post
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    by which you mean DPS standing in fire, screaming "Go!Go!Go!Go!" and bitching at the healer for no keeping them alive when pulling mobs instead of letting the tank do it ?

    Yep, if that's the case 5 man dungeons defintly teach them their rolls.
    thats totaly not liek i rememebr cata hcs when they tried to bring back the hard dungeons - those who were underperforming or dying were geting kicked untill they learned - same with low dps i rememebr nobaody carried anybody if someoen was underperforming he was told l2p and kicked

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by kaneem View Post
    I miss 5 mans, I loved the 3.3 ICC 5-Mans (Pit of Saron etc) and the Zul'Aman / Zul'Gurub dungeons where we had to think when playing. We had to CC, and we had talk in chat. I know the community has changed, but god I miss this.

    I also like to wipe. It means something was hard, or someone was learning and the group were talking to a person (not abusing) and helping them out. The old 5-mans forced communications. Now it is gone, and you barely get a hello out of people.

    Bring back CC, Wipes, and Communications with 5 mans. And yes, I hope they bring out more 5 mans and not let them die.
    I don't like to teach a random monkey I'll never see again a trick I've completed a hundred times. What you want is right there though. It is called challenge mode.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FobManX View Post
    I much prefer them to scenarios. The problem is MOP 5 mans got too easy too fast.
    Everything is easy if you play it a 100 times. Everything is easy when you outgear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurgulok View Post
    Blizzard stated that they will be bringing 5 Mans back in WoD, and scale the difficulty up to make them more challenging (Much like the start of Cata). They also have two or three extra dungeons planned to release in a content patch during the expac, so the gear isn't terrible.

    Dungeons are good as long as they stay challenging, imo. I dislike them now in MoP where my 551 iLvl DPS can pretty much global a boss in Siege of Niuzao. They should make them a little more challenging or up the ante at the end of an expac or in the middle, to make them fresh and worth doing.
    Random person complaining about the difficulty of a 1 year old dungeon tuned for players with more than 100 less ilvl (440 ilvl). GG.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    They don't grasp the potential of 5mans since TBC. It's THE content for casuals - give them a dungeon set and meaningful upgrade options (make 2+ upgrades this ilvl equal to LFR items as well!), make challenge modes + maybe some nice questchains to something that can upgrade those sets like t0,5 as well and suddenly an entire tier of content was created. LFR is the biggest problem of all - it eliminates all other catchups since it has superior items + an much higher itemlevel with every tier. Instead they should focus to exploid 5mans & scenarios + some nice quest chains to give a far better alternative to LFR. Take LFR from the catchup - Todo list (LFr is ONLY about items as it is in the game, sorry) and the alt / casual game might become a better one again. And it will last since casuals aren't that progress driven / new players will always use this instead of skipping things that have become old and never doing 5mans with current gear and so on...
    Cata taught Blizzard challenging content + random matchmaking does not work. This is why LFD, LFS, LFR are easy by default and become a joke once you outgear it (almost everyone who queues now outgears it).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Basically pre-nerf any Cata Heroic dungeon. I mean, the ones who leveled to 85 in 1-2 days were quite good people, but we still struggled a lot in Random groups, and getting tanks with half DPS gear with no clue how to tank didn't help either most of the time.

    Cata Heroics would be a nice difficulty level for something like "Mythic Dungeons", which upon completion would have like a 30% chance to drop an epic quality item(not random stat bullshit, actual items from a big pool of items) from a chest at the end of the dungeon, also they would give a lot more VP, gold and also random chances for non-combat pets/mounts also from the end chest.
    Don't forget healers. At start of new x-pac they go from raider gear, faceroll instances where you have too much spirit and can spam your ass off to a difficulty where you cannot carry 2 firedancers anymore because you'll run dead OOM. You cannot say you prefer the former or the latter; there must be a sense of character progression and doing the same content while having to grind it without any improvement (gear) sucks.

    Basically all we miss now are actually hard dungeons with rewards. Challenge modes are complete garbage when it comes to rewards, transmog set that nearly every raider has, and can be bought for gold if a casual wants it? A useless mount and title? Come on. I haven't done all of them in gold, but the ones I did were incredibly easy and didn't require much thought from the tank/healer in terms of gameplay, instead of pulling stuff carefully, you just speed run it like a Heroic dungeon.
    Casuals do not have much gold and don't buy gold either. They don't buy challenge mode boosts either because they can't afford it and don't care much about how they look. Its those raiders you see running around it with it. Newsflash: lots of them got their achis cause they outgear the content. If they don't outgear the content (challenge mode) they're shit. That is why they bought the challenge mode boost.
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  16. #56
    I've only ever did 1 scenario (one that wasn't solo) just to see what it was like. Colossal waste of time on blizzard's part would have preferred 5 mans.

  17. #57
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Wouldn't be surprised if scenarios would eventually replace instances. Less environments to design. They can basically use existing terrain. Besides I do like the scenarios especially given the short queues.

  18. #58
    The Lightbringer Blitzo's Avatar
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    I love dungeons and hate scenarios.

    Dungeons master race! Save them!
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  19. #59
    Mechagnome Razecog's Avatar
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    Dungeons are gear-up-for-raid stuff. Scenarios are way better imo.
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  20. #60
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    They both have merits, Dungeons are an integral part of start of expansion gearing imo. Expansions are nice more casual etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

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