[MW] Another "why am i bad" thread

[MagicRen]

Well, I'm not saying LW is better. But please don't under estimate LW's ability. I play LW style for all heroic fights. Current progress is 12/14H.
Typical data like this:
Protectors: 240K DPS, 220K HPS.
Norushen: 190K DPS, 380K HPS
Dark Shaman: 230K DPS, 120K HPS
Malkorok: 130K DPS, 440K HPS
Blackfuse's data is sad because I'm one of the treadmill team member and go up for every cycles. At the begining BL 40 seconds, I can deal 22-24M damage on the boss. And then for each treadmill cycle, I deal 2.5M average damage on the weapon.

Yes it's very hard to deal better HPS than shaman/disc priest, this is mechanism problem, not our play style. Malkorok's data can prove LW has the similar ability with triditional MW.
We can deal 3-4% raid DPS in 25H, and 8-10% DPS in 10H. Remember, this dps is free without any cost.

[rohendar]

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with 10 man content. Trying to make it about that because that's your experience area is pointless. The OP asked for help and does not raid 10 mans. Ergo, any answer in this thread is assumed to be about 25 mans, not 10 mans. 150k extra DPS is irrelevant in 25 mans, a warrior with Skull Banner or a Shaman with Stormlash provides that much.

You are joking right? 150k DPS is half a dps extra, FOR FREE, who does significant healing. If you are going to completely ignore me solely on the basis that my experience is from 10m HC, read what MagicRen posted of 25man numbers.

Monks CAN NOT compete with priests/shams/druids on certain fights. Absorbs and passive AOE healing just snipe most of the monks healing. The OP comes on here asking for help to make himself useful. I tell you doing DPS is a hell of a lot more useful than doing NOTHING. You say you have looked at the numbers, so have I. Their Sha of Pride log shows the monk doing 60k HPS and 15k DPS. THAT IS WHAT I CALL USELESS. 10 man Sha of Pride I do 100k HPS while doing 140k DPS, that is what I call making yourself useful.

The OP has 2 choices: Tell his guild to 4 heal Sha of Pride without him, cus honestly he is doing jack shit on that fight. Or do 140-150k DPS while still being able to help dispell/provide burst healing on sticky situations. That is it. No amount of you telling the OP to "tighten" things up will make him any more useful on these kinds of fights. My advice of doing DPS however will.

[Geodew]

...do [whatever amount of] DPS while still being able to help dispel/provide burst healing on sticky situations...

...is really the only reason you'd Fistweave. Dedicating to Lightning Weaving equipping things like DPS trinkets and/or DPS cloak means your burst HPS is much lower, so your raid is more vulnerable to the "sticky situations" which is the only reason you're even in Mistweaver spec. All that HPS you're doing Fistweaving is because you're sniping damage with smart-heals. Improving your HPS from 60k to 100k by fist- or lightning-weaving does not mean you're being more helpful if the HPS gain is coming from sniping. It's complicated by chi generation, but some math clearly shows that in a no-overheal situation, Mistweaving is the most HPS. The DPS gain even for progression in 25m could also be argued to be unhelpful for most guilds. It sounds like that's just an overgearing situation.

Basically: sure, you can add DPS when you're sure your healing isn't needed, more useful than standing around, even better if you can maintain relatively high chi for immediate uplifts, but don't think sniping heals is helpful and don't think switching out gear for DPS gear is helpful. If you're in heal spec at all, make sure you can burst when you need to by keeping ReMs up and using heal gear, IMO.

- - - Updated - - -

Instead of generating chi with soothing, you just generate chi with CJL.

Here's one main reason a lot of people don't do that.
@9158 Haste bp with raid spell haste buff
CJL: 0.426 Chi per second (mean value)
SooM spam: 0.8228 Chi per second (mean value)

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps also useful math is that adding "half a DPS" to a 25m raid with 18 DPSers takes 10 seconds off an otherwise 6 minute fight. Use that information as you will.

[rohendar]

* The only item I switch out is the cloak. And only on fights where healer cloak is not needed. I'm still a healer, I know what to prioritise. But even if you use healer cloak you can do significant dps, the caster cloak is just about 10% extra.

* Sure MW does the most HPS in a "no overheal situation". That only applies to 1 boss. And monks own on that boss. This discussion is about not feeling useless on the other 13. On those MW are the nr1 overhealers. If that is your argument to only Mistweave and never do any dps, then sorry but it makes no sense.

* I didn't talk about fist/lightningweaving to increase HPS, yes Eminence will snipe healing. Then again, the only reason the OP is even on here is because right now he's getting sniped by priests/shams. This entire discussion, when it comes to "healing output" only is completely redundant. The OP already has perfect uptime of ReM and uses all spells on cd. Yet he sees priests/shams own numbers and feels useless.

So when it comes to usefulness, I talked about dps healing to do "some" dps. Yes while lightningweaving you generate less chi than soothing mist. Soothing also heals like a wet noodle. CJL hits like a truck. And yes as soon as you hit 4 Chi you have to make a decision= uplift or bok? once or twice? Does my raid need help now or in 4 sec after my next CJL is done.

The only reason I'm so adamant in this discussion, is because some dude comes on here saying monks should never DPS on 25man. That it is completely useless and you should only ever use soothing to generate chi. This is a narrow minded, ignorant point of view and no way is it any help to the OP. Following this advice will in no way make the OP more useful. It also completely ignores half the playstyle of a monk and the best advantage monks have over other healers.

When it comes to monks, DPS healing requires a lot more thought, more overview and more awareness than just casting soothing to cap out chi and wait for something to happen so you can dump Uplift. I find it a hell of a lot more rewarding to pull off 150k DPS, while keeping up with the other healers, than stand around and do nothing.

OP doesn't want to DPS? Then he might as well get used to getting outhealed by priests and shams. Sit back and collect epics.

[Geodew]

* Sure MW does the most HPS in a "no overheal situation". That only applies to 1 boss. And monks own on that boss. This discussion is about not feeling useless on the other 13. On those MW are the nr1 overhealers. If that is your argument to only Mistweave and never do any dps, then sorry but it makes no sense.

I don't know about 1 boss there, dude, the situation of no-overheal comes up frequently in 10m appropriate gear. Whirling Corruption, Blackfuse add's pulses, etc. I'm not talking about the entire fight here like Norushen or something. Is that what you were thinking?

And actually, even with Uplift effective on 3/6 targets, CJL-Uplift and SooMspam-Uplift do about the same HPS, only because CJL is strong like you said, and CJL costs more mana if anyone cares about that. Obviously, SooM also pulls significantly ahead for 4+. It's not the best way to do your "healer" job, even if it adds a fair amount of DPS.

This is also all assuming any injured players are actually in range for Eminence, which is false too often enough for my taste.

[Deleted]

Saying DPS healing is useless or ineffective in 25 is plain wrong. For example I was the difference between reliably pushing Lei Shen and Garrosh but I couldn't have been replaced because of healing requirements. Dropping a healer isn't always the right choice.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, fistweaving isn't plain heal sniping. Look at the paragons for an example of when it's undeniably better than mistweaving.

[rohendar]

I'm done with this discussion, I've said my point. If you feel a monk is better off never dpsing and just wait for the moment to uplift, I feel very sad for you. You have the most boring experience ever in raids.

I've looked at the logs for the OP. Most of the fights he's complaining about, if I was his raid leader I would have just sat him and took another dps. Then he would be doing nothing. I was trying to help make himself more useful, but it seems all 25man monks want to do is get sniped and then whine about it on forums.

GL fighting dragons, may you get epics after your snore fests!

[Darkener]

Think of Eminence as the MW version of triage healing. When we know some damage is incoming, but we don't know who it will hit and in 25 man the chances that ReM will be on the player(s) already are slim, then you are much better off starting to channel CJL just before it and through the damage. I also raid 25man, and to the OP if you use this strategy you will heal whatever is left over after the absorbs. Each tick of CJL is a 100K+ smart heal. If just a few random people need healing, Eminence works great. When the big damage phase comes have ReM spread and use Uplift, Revival, Torpedo or Xuen. It's not an either or thing. It's about using all of the tools in your toolbox to their maximum potential.

[Totaltotemic]

Saying DPS healing is useless or ineffective in 25 is plain wrong. For example I was the difference between reliably pushing Lei Shen and Garrosh but I couldn't have been replaced because of healing requirements. Dropping a healer isn't always the right choice.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, fistweaving isn't plain heal sniping. Look at the paragons for an example of when it's undeniably better than mistweaving.

Firstly, you know better than to lump AoE fests in with single target fights and call them both fistweaving. We both know that using CJL between spells and using RJW/BoK are two totally different things and that BoK is plain OP when it's reliably hitting multiple targets.

Secondly, always trying to DPS and then only backing off when you need more healing for a fight is much more wasteful than always prioritizing healing and only then using things like Chi Wave, DPS cloaks, and Xuen at non-healing times if you really need that DPS for a fight. Of course the DPS makes a difference sometimes, but that's a tool MW has to do extra damage if it's needed, not something that should be the default in 25 man.

[MagicRen]

Yes, SooM has better Chi generation rate. But do you really need so many Chi(s) as a triditional MW? As a FW/LW, at least we can use BoK to burn these Chi(s). And don't forget most of the MWs should using ChiBrew at 5.4, so if you keep using ReM, the burst healing isn't a problem.
If we have high pressure for random targets healling, LW/FW can use instant Surging Mist for them.
So for most of the boss fights, FW/LW can act as good as MW. I have lots of WOL logs to prove it.
BTW: At the beginning 2CDs, we killed Norushen at 6:58/6:52. I dealed 180K dps. Without my DPS, we can't do that.

- - - Updated - - -

Ludacritts, if you're interesting on Lightning Weave, just look at my thread:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1339521-MW-WeakAuras-string-for-Lightning-Weaver-Rotation
It should help you a lot

[Geodew]

Saying DPS healing is useless or ineffective in 25 is plain wrong. For example I was the difference between reliably pushing Lei Shen and Garrosh but I couldn't have been replaced because of healing requirements. Dropping a healer isn't always the right choice.

Interesting. That's fair. I suppose we're useful for certain DPS requirements, esp. burst, is what you're saying? Most obvious example I can think of that I do is CJL on Korven's amber, makes it super easy for my guild. Burst healing requirements could be potentially just covered by a hybrid's heal cooldown, though.

Also, fistweaving isn't plain heal sniping. Look at the paragons for an example of when it's undeniably better than mistweaving.

I was kind of ignoring cleave fights in that analysis :P It's not even necessarily heal sniping in other situations, though. I didn't mean to say it was. My point was just that a lot of MWers do this thing where they fistweave or lightningweave like the entire fight and never use Uplift and then go "man, look at how much HPS I did!" but don't consider that their burst/aoe HPS was shit, and a large chunk of their total effective healing was cleanup spot heal sniping.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not an either or thing. It's about using all of the tools in your toolbox to their maximum potential.

Sure, but it becomes an either-or if you're equipping DPS cloak and trinkets for the sake of adding more DPS (like some above were suggesting) to lower your mean and maximum burst :P

Edit: Actually re-reading, I may have misunderstood and am not sure that was ever suggested. Cloak can be fine but trinkets sounds risky. What trinkets you use, Ren?

[MagicRen]

I'm using H1 + H4 amplifier trinkets(I forget their English names). Both DPS and HPS can take benifit from them.

[Geodew]

I'm using H1 + H4 amplifier trinkets(I forget their English names). Both DPS and HPS can take benifit from them.

You must mean Purified Bindings and Prison of Pride.
Yeah, that doesn't sound bad at all for healing, though I'd miss Thok for a few of the fights.

[blackblade]

I don't know that completely re-doing your playstyle is the right answer. But definitely do some reading. It might be that these guys are right, and you should fill in the blanks with some pew pew, it could be that you need to continue to hone your ability doing traditional MW.

I know that DPS-Healing will excel at any fight with a damage-taken debuff on boss. (Not sure if there's many of those this tier, except maybe Sha)

[Geodew]

I know that DPS-Healing will excel at any fight with a damage-taken debuff on boss. (Not sure if there's many of those this tier, except maybe Sha)

And cleave fights like Paragons, as Reglitch mentioned.

I actually find it hard to exploit in 10m because of the 20yd ranges. It's difficult to be certain I'm not doing 50% or even 100% overheal. Feels unreliable. I couldn't manage using it for Heroic Horridon until everyone was grouped up in the final fifth phase. Too much headache with the cooldown on placing the statue.

[Astraios]

So:
Someone mentioned Nazgrim and using xuen at the start of the fight: Nono, to pad meters you want to use Xuen on zerker stance, for most damages. (Unless you would lose a use of xuen, I suppose, but he's up for every zerker. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's what how I use him.)

@rohendar: I never said you shouldn't ever DPS, and I'm not sure I read anyone in here saying that either. Using FW during downtime instead of standing around...well duh, use your globals yes plz. [I did say you shouldn't be randomly dumping uplift because...well that's just useless.]

As for the whole cloak/trinkets for DPS'ing...how much dps does it add? How much is that in the picture of your raid? We're good at helping burst things down (ra-den if your ranged are DERPING, lei shen balls, etc.) but an RNG trinket proc...doesn't seem reliable or useful when you need to reliably burst something. On the other hand, the healing accessories (well, cleave trinket & cloak) add MASSIVE burst to your healing. Yes, okay, maybe the cloak isn't reliable, I can agree on that. Thok's on the other hand is very strong and pretty reliable when you're getting large amounts of ticks/second that MW do (same reason crit's always been more "reliable" for MW.)

Now, what are healers brought to the raid for? Healing. Where is healing most important? First: Burst healing, where you need to bring people above some critical amount of health before they die [or if you're disc, they simply never go below 100%][hint: this is where we are amazing]. Second: tank healing, where if your tank dies (>3 times, I suppose with brez') you're at a strong risk of wiping [hint: we suck here, but EnvM is still worth more to your raids chance of downing a boss (in progression scenarios), imo, than BoK or a useless uplift to chi dump]. The dps items honestly help at neither of these, and the healing accessories excel at both of these. Thok just adds a huge amount of throughput, and the cloak utilizes even thoks overhealing to help tank heal or whatever else. Yes, yes, the healing cloak is unreliable and as such isn't "amazing" but you're comparing unreliable (INSANE) burst healing to a small unreliable damage boost. I'm here to make sure no one dies due to healing throughput, so I would say the healing cloak is far superior, and thok's is a no-brainer (I mean, 11% throughput boost, like, why would you not?)

So, I'm not going to get into some long post about FW vs. LW and the benefits of both, but ultimately I prefer FW because:
Stronger on-demand spot healing (instant surgings) not limited by eminence (20yd range is...very unreliable as well).
It's more seamless (I can jab before using, say, ReM or EH, but if I start a CJL then I always feel like I wasted mana.)
If you don't chi dump with CJL then it will oom you very quickly...but how do you chi dump? EnvM? Wastes globals, but is beneficial to raid. Uplift? 99% chance to be almost entirely overhealing at a point where I would be using CJL. So...weak Blackout kicks? Well, it's more likely a non-zero healing/dps increase comparing to uplift, but it still feels like wasted globals. As well, weaving CJL in between ReM/EH CD's generally overloads me with chi, especially considering there are absolutely zero effective chi dumps to use. Ultimately, there is at most a 10-20% dps difference during simply FW vs. LW. Applying previous factors in raid environments, the factor that CJL roots me to the ground and prevents fast reactions to anything on the ground/mechanics in general, and I prefer FW because it allows me to stay at near capped chi for fast reactions with my chi. YMMV. [Also, this is the short version of my opinion on FW vs. LW, before anyone says anything about that.]


@OP: Despite what I've said in this thread about how I prefer staying near chi cap, there are certainly many fights where you should be DPS'ing in your free time. Most of these fights where I would consider DPS'ing mandatory are...cleave fights, where SCK/BK or Jab/BK absolutely destroy CJL DPS/healing. One of these fights is galakras (though it's easy for sure, you'll get tons of HPS from it in the first phase and snipe very well, not to mention 5+ target BK is probably one of our most efficient chi spenders unless uplift has low overhealing.)
Now, I'm bored and feeling like I should contribute so I'm going to go through your logs and list what I think you can improve (though I'm not sure if you're still reading this thread):
Focus on using ReM on CD (the logs I've browsed through had around 80% ReM usage it seemed.
On Nazgrim make sure you place your ReM on the targets with DoT's (best for sniping >AND< most effective use of your ReM CD's.)
Try to get thok's, for 25s thok > nazgrim trinket on basically every fight [thok's parses higher than multistrike trinket logs I've seen comparing to mine].
I feel you can make much better use of your chi brew combined with TFT. Why do I say this? Background: On malkorok my uplifts averaged slightly less than 5-10% MORE healing than yours, my log is 4:21 and I generated 117 chi, your log is 6:13 and you generated 177 chi. Essentially your log is a little less than 50% longer than mine. My uplifts total healing was higher than yours. [Granted I had slightly less overhealing, but this goes back to my uplift averaging 5-10% more healing.] For the record, I had 472 uplift heals, you had 466. [This is for analysis purposes and using myself as an example of how you may improve, not trying to e-peen or w/e, sorry if it comes off wrong.] So, essentially, I had 2/3 the chi and 2/3 the time, yet my uplift outhealed yours slightly. This comes down entirely to ReM on CD (Astra: 31 ReM, Nootz: 33 ReM casts), TFT timing for optimal healing [on malkorok...basically just use it on CD and you'll mostly be fine], and using chi brew during TFT because it doubles in value during these times [you might say "but Astra, CB is my oh-shit button, why would I limit myself to using it during TFT?", Well probably because you should've planned your TFT to align with lets say "popular" oh-shit times, such as around the mini-explosions on malk if you want to min-max, as well as the fact that Chi burst is a much stronger and more reliable "oh shit" button, seeing as it takes less time and does far more healing than chi brew (unless TFT is up...in which case chi brewing is fine).] So, work on timing ReM on CD as well as using Chi brew mostly during TFT.

Also at this point I'd like to take a moment in my analysis of his logs to spot and mention that 2T15 made my ReM do 30.9Mil healing to his ReM's 23.9Mil healing, while he had 2 more ReM. Now, this isn't completely reliable since I likely have more effective ReM from TFT'ing at proper times, however...he has more Ticks than me anyway [question to OP, are you above the 9k haste cap? I Can't check via your armory at the time of this post]. Maybe he has better TFT timings than me? I'm not really sure at this point. Anywho on with the analysis: His 4T16 did 2.5Mil healing. My 2t15 made an estimated (30.9/1.1) - 23.9 ~ 4.2Mil healing, if not more [I'm likely overestimating my raw-throughput gain via my gear over his at 10%]. Unsure if this makes up for lost stats for the rest of it, but if we didn't account for a "10% throughput gain via gear" it would be a 7Mil healing increase via 2T15, which I feel is greater than whatever loss to the rest of my healing via the t16 gear. Now, this analysis is flawed since I cannot look at his gear/spellpower/crit/etc to compare with mine, however it's still interesting to me that I feel he would likely gain [at least on malkorok] from 2t15 over 2t16 unless its normal t15 or heroic t16. Anyway, back to log analysis...

On spoils the analysis is similar to Malkorok. ReM around 80% of possible uses, we want closer to 95% or more. MW really, really hinges on ReM on CD.
Thok, you did really well, though it's still close to 85-90% of ReM uses while we want 95% or more. During every phase of thok we want to use ReM for spot healing purposes, so no excuses here. [also side note 2t15 still made my ReM do 50% more healing than his, which is a 5Mil net gain of 2t15 vs 2t16 [before comparing stats]].



Conclusion: As others have said, you have the general idea down. You can see great improvement by working on ReM timing and likely by learning to time TFT better. That being said, MW being top on meters >mostly< relies on your healing partners being bad or undergeared for content. Your healing partners are neither, so I advise you make yourself useful via: DPS in free time, making sure to keep tanks alive [though this tier it hasn't really mattered], bursting when it matters [meter winning is great, but keeping people alive is better], being able to do mechanics which others cant [such as putting all 3 markers down on malkorok, which my co-monk did for a few weeks], and never dying to mechanics [which is pretty easy as MW, truth be told]. These are things which you can do as a MW and as a player which make you valuable to a raid, other than simply raw HPS.

[MagicRen]

Thank you for your long long post~ Really good point.
Just reminder that, from my expierence, LW's DPS is much better than FW. Saying 30%-40% higher.
Currently I can deal 19.5K DPS vs dummy, with 80M total damage.(580 iLv, self buff only)). I don't think FW can deal more than 150K DPS with same gears.

From triditional MW's point of view, LW just replaces their SooM. It doesn't change too much things. So it should heal as good as the MW.

For the trinket proc issue, most of the SOO's trinkets are un-reliable because they trigger int. So it just worth to discuss which one is better, amplifier or cleave or multi-strike? That's depending on your choice. In a farming raid environment, we deal tons of overhealing, so I don't like healer's cleave/multi-strike. I want balanced choices, which are Purified Bindings and Prison of Pride. They work for both DPS and HPS. If you wan't even higher DPS, then DPS' multi-strike trinket is the BIS.

[Geodew]

For the trinket proc issue, most of the SOO's trinkets are un-reliable because they trigger int. So it just worth to discuss which one is better, amplifier or cleave or multi-strike? That's depending on your choice. In a farming raid environment, we deal tons of overhealing, so I don't like healer's cleave/multi-strike. I want balanced choices, which are Purified Bindings and Prison of Pride. They work for both DPS and HPS. If you wan't even higher DPS, then DPS' multi-strike trinket is the BIS.

For progression, I think it's important. All three trinkets have the int proc, so there's no getting around that unreliability. Lei Shen trinket has an int chunk base but the proc is even more RNG than SoO trinkets and the proc is on average much much worse, as well. So definitely no getting around that.

Cleave has a range of 20yd, and it is balanced with Multistrike if it hits an average of 1.5 people, so it's hugely overbudget if it hits five people regularly, and you can be confident this is the case on all but maybe a few fights. Actually, the range is not an issue. I raid 10m and on any fight I see "low" parses for Cleave it's also 80%+ overheal, meaning it's HITTING close to 5 people every time, but they're full health. So you can assume Cleave hits a very large number of people even in 10m, so it is too good to pass up HPS-wise. It may seem too unreliable with its low proc chance, but actually, with the vast number of healing events MW puts out, it procs on average every ~6 seconds IIRC.

Multistrike is slightly better than Amp for traditional MW considering HPS only, but it does not proc off Eminence, so if you're a lot of FWing or LWing (Eminence 10%+ of total healing) you probably want Amp anyway for total HPS, and then the DPS bonus is a happy accident. Note, though, that this makes your Uplifts weaker so maybe you don't care about total HPS and just want to keep max burst, in which case keep Multistrike.

Basically it can matter because the non-proc parts of Multistrike and Cleave are like (relative to no trinket at all) +5% healing and +15% healing at 0-overheal, which is a huge HPS boost just from changing a trinket.

[Astraios]

Thank you for your long long post~ Really good point.
Just reminder that, from my expierence, LW's DPS is much better than FW. Saying 30%-40% higher.
Currently I can deal 19.5K DPS vs dummy, with 80M total damage.(580 iLv, self buff only)). I don't think FW can deal more than 150K DPS with same gears.

From triditional MW's point of view, LW just replaces their SooM. It doesn't change too much things. So it should heal as good as the MW.

For the trinket proc issue, most of the SOO's trinkets are un-reliable because they trigger int. So it just worth to discuss which one is better, amplifier or cleave or multi-strike? That's depending on your choice. In a farming raid environment, we deal tons of overhealing, so I don't like healer's cleave/multi-strike. I want balanced choices, which are Purified Bindings and Prison of Pride. They work for both DPS and HPS. If you wan't even higher DPS, then DPS' multi-strike trinket is the BIS.

I don't get those results on a target dummy, I get 100k at best doing CJL/BK dumping chi and 80kish doing FW. I prefer FW at those ratios, and havent the slightest idea what you're doing to do 190k Lol. Unless you're also using Xuen/pots/flask/something else. I certainly don't get anywhere near that anyway. So what all are you including in "LW" then?

As far as CJL replacing SoM...the only time I really SoM is when I want to build chi quickly, which generally SoM does better than CJL [about twice as fast]. If it were raw just "nothing to do, lets add DPS" then I suppose CJL is superior at better DPS [though its also more mana-expensive]. Other than that SoM is for EnvM or Surging a tank (but lets be real, you should just healing sphere if they need emergency heals haha.)

The thing about "tons of overhealing" on the trinkets is, the cleave trinket does 10% of your healing, while doing the same 60-80% overhealing as all your other spells. AKA it's so strong (and a smart heal on its cleave) that it really just destroys every other trinket, and not to mention cleave trinket benefiting any legendary proc farrr more than anything else. As for "balanced choices", sure...but again, you're just trading 8% amp for an 11% raw throughput buff. Not even close imo.

[MagicRen]

I use Xuen of course. I use this telent for most of the boss fights, so I use it for dummy too. I also use DPS cloak. But nothing else. 195K dps is the best data I've ever reached. Most of the time, I can get DPS between 180K-190K.

I agree cleave trinket is the best healer's trinket. But it's effective healing is not stable. From 3% to 15% depending on the environment. Multi-strike healing is relative stable 3-5%.

Based on current environment, I still suspect whether we really need that "free additional" healing. Because I think in 25H raid with 2 disc priests and 2 shamans, my HPS is nearly same w/wo cleave...