Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntadin View Post
    Your phrasing mighta been a little off but if this statement taken as is, is incorrect, the dot stacks, you don't lose dps.

    And as you correctly stated; SV spams ES, therefore you wont be delaying it until high stacks of renaktais or low stacks of ebon and will come down to the RNG of the procs and your LnL.

    Ebon isn't an awful trinket, mastery isnt "a really bad stat", all secondaries are rather close. It just so happens that multistrike > secondary stats, almost to the point that haromms is barely behind ebon for BM. (And you can't time ebon like you could with renaktais for those big KC's)

    As stated: Assurance BiS for all specs.
    Explosive shot snapshots your current stats, so you do infact override your large ticks of explosive shot with weaker ones as you spam it.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    Explosive shot snapshots your current stats, so you do infact override your large ticks of explosive shot with weaker ones as you spam it.
    Last I checked, explosive shot used the ignite mechanic, which rolls the damage left from your previous DoT onto the new one when applying it, so you wouldn't lose any damage left from the previous explosive shot's ticks when applying a new one (the damage added in from the new one would snapshot your current stats however). Have you done some recent testing which indicates this has changed?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeherah View Post
    Last I checked, explosive shot used the ignite mechanic
    This^, it still uses ignite mechanic which is how once spammed you can have those 300-400k ticks, nomnom.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    Explosive shot snapshots your current stats, so you do infact override your large ticks of explosive shot with weaker ones as you spam it.
    Two other people already answered, but just to drive it home, this is incorrect. Explosive Shot rolls the new damage of the incoming shot entirely into the existing shot, you never lose damage or change the damage of ESs already on the target. It used to work the way you describe here way back in Wrath and part of Cata, which is why you had to do ES-filler-ES-filler-ES for LnL procs.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipse View Post
    Two other people already answered, but just to drive it home, this is incorrect. Explosive Shot rolls the new damage of the incoming shot entirely into the existing shot, you never lose damage or change the damage of ESs already on the target. It used to work the way you describe here way back in Wrath and part of Cata, which is why you had to do ES-filler-ES-filler-ES for LnL procs.
    No, the reason you had to do that back then was because you would lose ticks on your explosive shot. Explosive shot DOES snapshot your stats at the time your press the ability, so casting another explosive shot right after one another with TED will refresh your dot with a weaker one, as the agility proc goes down. You will not lose ticks, but the 400k explosive shot ticks from the first one will be overriden by the 350k explosive shot ticks in the second one. You do not lose ticks, but your original 400k explosive shot ticks will now be re-snap shotted to a weaker value due to the decreasing agility proc.

    I'm fairly certain this is how it works, if not, my apologies, but it was my understanding that this was quite a factor in why SV hunters choose Haromms > TED.
    Last edited by Alth; 2013-12-09 at 07:49 AM.

  6. #26
    Okay, just spend some time at training dummy, unequipped legendary cloak and other trinket, cloak so my combat log isn't full of it's procs and other trinket so i won't get unwanted agi procs. I used wind serpent for magic debuff and had hunter's mark on target. Waited so that my double upgraded heroic Ticking Ebon Detonator (aka TED) will proc instanty, used freezing trap at training dummy for quaranteed lock'n load proc and this is what i got (I removed all the direct explosive shot hits and autoshot hits). These are all back to back explosive casts.

    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 152320 Fire. (Critical)
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 143589 Fire. (Critical)
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 91782 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 102156 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 106443 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 213324 Fire. (Critical)
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 103929 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 99421 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 192650 Fire. (Critical)
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 189082 Fire. (Critical)
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 94541 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 94541 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 164599 Fire. (Critical)
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 164598 Fire. (Critical)
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 73760 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 70885 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 90954 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 101554 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 106254 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 106599 Fire.
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 213197 Fire. (Critical)
    Your Explosive Shot damaged Raider's Training Dummy 213197 Fire. (Critical)

    And after that, i went to our logs and took fight where i used TED+Harom combo, below TED procced, while harom was shining with absent. Don't you just love the first two seconds, wtf was i afking?

    [20:52:53.750] Soviett gains Restless Agility from Soviett
    [20:52:54.278] Soviett's Restless Agility (19) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:54.471] Soviett gains Lock and Load from Soviett
    [20:52:54.756] Soviett's Restless Agility (18) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:55.300] Soviett's Restless Agility (17) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:55.775] Soviett's Restless Agility (16) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:56.276] Soviett's Restless Agility (15) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:56.495] Soviett casts Explosive Shot on Rik'kal the Dissector
    [20:52:56.761] Soviett's Restless Agility (14) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:56.941] Rik'kal the Dissector afflicted by Explosive Shot from Soviett
    [20:52:56.941] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector *175979*
    [20:52:57.285] Soviett's Restless Agility (13) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:57.495] Soviett casts Explosive Shot on Rik'kal the Dissector
    [20:52:57.774] Soviett's Restless Agility (12) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:57.934] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector *175669*
    [20:52:57.962] Rik'kal the Dissector's Explosive Shot is refreshed by Soviett
    [20:52:57.962] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector *167489*
    [20:52:58.271] Soviett's Restless Agility (11) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:58.508] Soviett casts Explosive Shot on Rik'kal the Dissector
    [20:52:58.760] Soviett's Restless Agility (10) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:58.962] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector *169429*
    [20:52:58.962] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector 78941
    [20:52:58.962] Rik'kal the Dissector's Explosive Shot is refreshed by Soviett
    [20:52:59.274] Soviett's Restless Agility (9) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:59.503] Soviett casts Explosive Shot on Rik'kal the Dissector
    [20:52:59.760] Soviett's Restless Agility (8) fades from Soviett
    [20:52:59.937] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector *217765*
    [20:52:59.967] Rik'kal the Dissector's Explosive Shot is refreshed by Soviett
    [20:52:59.967] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector 74207
    [20:53:00.257] Soviett's Restless Agility (7) fades from Soviett
    [20:53:00.539] Soviett casts Explosive Shot on Rik'kal the Dissector
    [20:53:00.539] Soviett's Lock and Load fades from Soviett
    [20:53:00.784] Soviett's Restless Agility (6) fades from Soviett
    [20:53:00.970] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector *244776*
    [20:53:00.999] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector 70049
    [20:53:01.026] Rik'kal the Dissector's Explosive Shot is refreshed by Soviett
    [20:53:01.315] Soviett's Restless Agility (5) fades from Soviett
    [20:53:01.523] Soviett casts Explosive Shot on Rik'kal the Dissector
    [20:53:01.774] Soviett's Restless Agility (4) fades from Soviett
    [20:53:01.949] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector *256014*
    [20:53:01.980] Rik'kal the Dissector's Explosive Shot is refreshed by Soviett
    [20:53:02.270] Soviett's Restless Agility (3) fades from Soviett
    [20:53:02.749] Soviett's Restless Agility (2) fades from Soviett
    [20:53:02.979] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector 129123
    [20:53:03.312] Soviett's Restless Agility (1) fades from Soviett
    [20:53:03.805] Soviett's Restless Agility fades from Soviett
    [20:53:03.944] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector 129123
    [20:53:04.544] Soviett gains Lock and Load from Soviett
    [20:53:04.982] Soviett Explosive Shot Rik'kal the Dissector *258246*
    [20:53:04.982] Soviett's Explosive Shot fades from Rik'kal the Dissector

    We all see I failed to use explosive shot that moment lock and load procced, dunno was i casting cobra shot, out of range, low on focus or what, cba to check whole logs to see what I was doing those missed moments.

    E. Im not sure why training dummy damage is so fucked up, might be scopes proc, dunno since it's only agi proc I don't keep an eye on, but actual log from raid tell's me that it's doesn't work like warlock dots, but works like ignite.
    Last edited by soviett; 2013-12-09 at 10:25 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    No, the reason you had to do that back then was because you would lose ticks on your explosive shot. Explosive shot DOES snapshot your stats at the time your press the ability, so casting another explosive shot right after one another with TED will refresh your dot with a weaker one, as the agility proc goes down. You will not lose ticks, but the 400k explosive shot ticks from the first one will be overriden by the 350k explosive shot ticks in the second one. You do not lose ticks, but your original 400k explosive shot ticks will now be re-snap shotted to a weaker value due to the decreasing agility proc.

    I'm fairly certain this is how it works, if not, my apologies, but it was my understanding that this was quite a factor in why SV hunters choose Haromms > TED.
    When you clip Explosive Shot it rolls the damage remaining into the next 3 ticks. Yes it does snapshot your stats but it doesn't override your previous dot strength.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    No, the reason you had to do that back then was because you would lose ticks on your explosive shot. Explosive shot DOES snapshot your stats at the time your press the ability, so casting another explosive shot right after one another with TED will refresh your dot with a weaker one, as the agility proc goes down. You will not lose ticks, but the 400k explosive shot ticks from the first one will be overriden by the 350k explosive shot ticks in the second one. You do not lose ticks, but your original 400k explosive shot ticks will now be re-snap shotted to a weaker value due to the decreasing agility proc.

    I'm fairly certain this is how it works, if not, my apologies, but it was my understanding that this was quite a factor in why SV hunters choose Haromms > TED.
    No. Please stop confusing people.

    Damage from previous ES's just keep rolling into the next one *ignite mechanic* style.

    So, if you are using TED and it procs, any ES fired after the proc will get the huge boost and then start to come back down to normal, BUT IT HAS NO EFFECT ON THE SHOTS PREVIOUSLY FIRED - EITHER ON THE SHOTS FIRED BEFORE THE PROC OR ON SHOTS FIRED DURING IT.

    Survival Hunters choose Haromm's because they can actually use the +damage proc effectively.

    BM hunters only take TED because Haromm's does not proc on pet attacks. Not because TED is a good trinket.

  9. #29
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Brawl Pub
    Posts
    3,809
    I think the confusion lies in that when you lose a proc, your next ES ticks *will* be lower. But it's still an averaging of two ES casts (the strong one and the weaker one) to produce a tick amount which is lower than the strong, proc-heavy ES, but much higher than a non-proc ES tick would be.


    ES ticks roll into each other. This means the previous ES's damage remaining is rolled into a new 4 tick ES with the new ES, and averaged out over the 4 ticks. End of story.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    When you clip Explosive Shot it rolls the damage remaining into the next 3 ticks. Yes it does snapshot your stats but it doesn't override your previous dot strength.
    I stand corrected then, good to know!

  11. #31
    The Patient Kuul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    330
    Quote Originally Posted by Alth View Post
    I stand corrected then, good to know!
    I can't believe people still thought if you spam Explosive Shots 2 hours straight (possible in theory with 4PC!) you end up seeing 2 million ticks per second...
    Last edited by Kuul; 2013-12-10 at 05:11 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuul View Post
    I can't believe people still thought if you spam Explosive Shots 2 hours straight (possible in theory with 4PC!) you end up seeing 2 million ticks per second...
    Who thought that?

  13. #33
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    6,307
    Rather than making a new topic, what is the best way to use Black Arrow with Assurance? Use it straight away? Wait for the ticks to go off? Delay if LNL is on cd etc?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Rather than making a new topic, what is the best way to use Black Arrow with Assurance? Use it straight away? Wait for the ticks to go off? Delay if LNL is on cd etc?
    Dont use BA on cd, waste ticks. Use at under 2 seconds left on current. I reapply it with trinket procs as it's snapshot but not sure how dps increase this is, probably minor.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuul View Post
    I can't believe people still thought if you spam Explosive Shots 2 hours straight (possible in theory with 4PC!) you end up seeing 2 million ticks per second...
    I'm not that guy, and quite frankly I don't really care how it works as I just gatling gun the hell out of ES (ever since I heard about non-clipping), but I looked a bit into it and here at WHU:
    http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/...ot-be-clipped/

    If this guy is correct, wouldn't it be possible? I'm not sure how long it would take, but it'd just go higher and higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    Rather than making a new topic, what is the best way to use Black Arrow with Assurance? Use it straight away? Wait for the ticks to go off? Delay if LNL is on cd etc?
    Using it right away is definitely a nono.

    Assuming my current BA only has 2s left on it, I reapply BA only if I don't have L&L procs or L&L icd is up. I also like to reapply BA, sometimes even to clip a tick when I have 3+ procs going off.
    Last edited by timoseewho; 2013-12-12 at 11:20 PM.
    <Guiles Theme Song> @ Magtheridon-US Horde 25-man, SoO-14/14H US#29, currently recruiting all
    Website: http://www.guilesthemesong.wowlaunch.com
    Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/timoseewho

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I think the confusion lies in that when you lose a proc, your next ES ticks *will* be lower. But it's still an averaging of two ES casts (the strong one and the weaker one) to produce a tick amount which is lower than the strong, proc-heavy ES, but much higher than a non-proc ES tick would be.


    ES ticks roll into each other. This means the previous ES's damage remaining is rolled into a new 4 tick ES with the new ES, and averaged out over the 4 ticks. End of story.
    When you cast ES which then refreshes an ES on the target, this first Hit is based on the snapshot at the time of the cast and the next 3 ticks are used to roll the damage together.

    Trinket Up

    1st ES Hit 120k
    ES Tick 1 120k

    Trinket Drops

    2nd ES Hit 60k and Refreshes ES

    The next 3 ticks are made up with the tick missed from the last ES (120k) + the 2 (60k)ticks from the new ES

    120k + 60k + 60 / 3 = 80k ticks

    ES Tick 1 80k
    ES Tick 2 80k
    ES Tick 3 80k

    If none of them crit the damage is exactly the same, the rng comes down to which hit/ticks crit.

    If you lose Lock and Load just before your trinket drops and your current ES is one which has been refreshed with 3 ticks then you may gain some damage by delaying your last non Lock and Load ES cast as the big ticks have a chance to crit.

    If you still have Lock and Load when the trinket drops then your better off to keep spamming ES to increase the chances of having a larger chain of ES spam. Even though your ticks will be smaller they will still be bigger than a totally new ES on the target and hence allowing you to build them up to bigger ticks faster and hence do more damage in the long run.

    Ebon Detonator is perfectly fine for SV with a number of Survival hunters doing top parses with it. I would still choose Haromm's Talisman for SV and use the Detonator for BM.
    Last edited by rustyboy; 2013-12-13 at 01:32 AM.

  17. #37
    Ask a Blue to confirm because there is a lot of speculation.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by timoseewho View Post
    If this guy is correct, wouldn't it be possible? I'm not sure how long it would take, but it'd just go higher and higher.
    In theory, it should be possible. Statistically, it's impossible.

    You'd be required to have Lock and Load proc off of Black Arrow perfectly after the LnL ICD ends for an extended period of time. You would also 'lose' some damage every 20 seconds while you take the GCD to refresh Black Arrow (though I believe you would still be slowly accumulating damage, assuming perfect proccing).

    Back-of-napkin math suggests that getting to 2 million ticks would take about 20 to 25 minutes of constant LnL procs (accounting for damage lost to Black Arrow refreshes).

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuyn View Post
    In theory, it should be possible. Statistically, it's impossible.

    You'd be required to have Lock and Load proc off of Black Arrow perfectly after the LnL ICD ends for an extended period of time. You would also 'lose' some damage every 20 seconds while you take the GCD to refresh Black Arrow (though I believe you would still be slowly accumulating damage, assuming perfect proccing).

    Back-of-napkin math suggests that getting to 2 million ticks would take about 20 to 25 minutes of constant LnL procs (accounting for damage lost to Black Arrow refreshes).
    Haha ya, I wouldn't hold my breath:P.
    <Guiles Theme Song> @ Magtheridon-US Horde 25-man, SoO-14/14H US#29, currently recruiting all
    Website: http://www.guilesthemesong.wowlaunch.com
    Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/timoseewho

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •