Warlords of Draenor 5-man Mythic dungeons. Are you for or against it?

[Deleted]

How do you make a 5 man challenging? Lot of 1 shot deaths? No fun if you get a latency spike.
I think it's nearly impossible to make challenging 5 mans with 3 dps.

Actually I take that back. One way I think it would be challenging was if the layout of the mobs and types of mobs were completely random along with boss abilities. Maybe...

"Challenging" isn't a binary scale, it's relative to character power, group teamwork and player ability - it also applies to both difficulty and complexity. It doesn't necessarily need to require min/maxing, flasks, potions, voice comm, etc. Nor does it necessarily mean players need to repeatedly try the same dungeon/content for 3 hours just to get perfect choreography. The point of the game is to be fun for different players and the word takes a different context for 5 players from a heroic raiding guild compared with 5 players in a casual/social guild.

It doesn't necessarily need to mean 1-shot abilties, although those are valid too. Challenging can also mean "you or your party can make 1 or 2 mistakes, but you can't make 3".

In any case, look back over the years for all the different kinds of mechanics Blizz have used to make players use their brain; sometimes on their own, sometimes with different kinds of 'punishments' for mistakes, but usually mixing them up together:

- Disruptive mob abilities - e.g. mobs casting AoE fear, MC'ing a player, sheeping the healer, healing the mobs to 100% hp, etc.

- Situational awareness - Needing to watch for incoming patrols, summoning adds, or mobs which "run away in fear" on trash.

- Higher damage - gear requirements, need to use defensive cooldowns, need for healers to conserve mana, need for healers to react quickly.

- Coordination on-the-fly with other players - e.g. needing to run to/from a particular player or needing to click a player to release them from a trap.

- Reactions to mechanics (e.g. mobs which cast uninterruptable abilities, moving to/from things on the ground).

- Require non-combat abilities and class/role-limited abilities (dispels, stuns, slows, interrupts, CC, speed boosts, etc).

- Kill order/priorities (used to be common for TBC heroics) - e.g. Mobs which get more powerful as they take longer to die or keep summoning adds.

- Ensuring that control is not exclusively the responsibility of the tank (e.g. mobs which need kiting because they 1-shot the tank, or mobs which don't have aggro tables).

- Forcing players to change their play style (e.g. requiring constant movement so limiting to instant-cast abilities).

- Abilities which require good mob/boss positioning (e.g. Valiona's dragon breath in Grim Batol).

Some challenges are a little role/class-dependant - e.g. movement is easier for melee than some ranged dps, but "punishing" doesn't have to mean the same thing as "1 shot death", failing to deal with mechanics might just mean taking extra damage, players being stunned for 8sec, knocked off a wall and needing to run back up, etc.

RNG is pretty standard too - in fact, mobs and bosses without any RNG at all just get boring and formulaic really quickly. I can't really think of many dungeons or bosses which have zero RNG aside from Patchwerk. Even if the RNG is just a random player being targeted with something or a random chance for CC to break etc.

[Aus Nate]

For:
1. Gives us a dungeon difficulty above todays heroic dungeons.
3. Keeps 5-mans more relevant.
4. Easy to implement as it is mostly tuning.
5. Incentive for players of a lower difficulty level to improve.
6. Bigger pool of players for Mythic raiding guilds to recruit from.

I think, make it like Hscen where only from realid/current realm.
I don't agree on making it "end game" though.

[Constraint]

Even the inclusion of a "satchel of spoils" reward for EVERYONE in the group for an exceptionally difficult "Mythic" dungeon would keep me doing them for months on end. It's always more exciting when you finish.

[rhorle]

Even the inclusion of a "satchel of spoils" reward for EVERYONE in the group for an exceptionally difficult "Mythic" dungeon would keep me doing them for months on end. It's always more exciting when you finish.

But how do you figure out if a instance run is actually difficult, a group member sucks, or someone is purposefully tanking it to get the "satchel" reward? Because what is difficult for one group might be extremely easy for another. For example the first week of Cataclysm I was able to dungeon finder Grim Batol to success. That was because for that brief period of time you always got competent players because those are who usually rush to level cap.

Once the rest caught up that instance became hard to complete in a dungeon finder group. So how do we reward "truly" hard and not "you suck so its hard"?

[Elendur76]

Heavily in favor of very very difficult 5-mans with epic loot on par or slightly under same raid difficulty.

[Hiricine]

difficulty slider like mp in diablo 3 imo

[Deleted]

I am definitely for it if they manage to pull it off correctly. I've always found 5 mans a lot more fun than scenarios, so bringing them back to the main scene would be quite fun.
Personally I'm more looking forward to new Brawler's guild stuff, reaching rank 10 at 5.3 as a rogue was one of the most fun things I've done in WoW.

[Pejo]

difficulty slider like mp in diablo 3 imo

This is my wish as well - I wrote a post a while back on how I wish this was out in the open world but that would be too hard to implement without griefing/exploiting. For instanced content, this could be very fun.

I think this also would be a great alternative to LFR, but it would be difficult to balance for droprate, unless they made a daily cooldown on this mode like BC. Even then, it most likely would lead to quicker gearing so hmm.

[rhorle]

This is my wish as well - I wrote a post a while back on how I wish this was out in the open world but that would be too hard to implement without griefing/exploiting. For instanced content, this could be very fun.

I think this also would be a great alternative to LFR, but it would be difficult to balance for droprate, unless they made a daily cooldown on this mode like BC. Even then, it most likely would lead to quicker gearing so hmm.

The problem though is that just increasing X stat on monsters doesn't really do much for difficulty in the type of game WoW is. This is why dungeons and raids have moved away from simple gear checks and moved towards mechanic based checks. It would work to some degree but would still be hard to balance for every class. Where as Diablo 3 doesn't really need to balance it for every class and relies mostly on stat based difficulty checks.

[Theholypally]

I dont want any nerfs to mythic difficulty i just want people to understand that your shitty 660 alt is going to cause some problems and i personally am not interested in carrying anyone through them.

Hell, i had two groups earlier with 680+ dps not being able to sustain more than 20k dps on aoe trash...and less than 30k on single target. Not to mention their inability to move out of basic trash/boss mechanics (fire, ground slam) which means they died on almost every pull in UBRS going to the Proto boss and warlord zaela.

Moral of the story is: don't pug these because its not worth the headache.