They'll be as competitive as demo locks with the tank glyph are.
Skeptical yet possible
They'll be as competitive as demo locks with the tank glyph are.
I hope if they keep trying to add the shield dps (I really hope it happens too) that they just go the druid route and make it a 4th spec.
Keeping it tied to prot gives it the same problems feral had when they were intertwined.
Glad Stance will be cool and fun, and give Prot Warriors an option to do something different, but don't kid yourselves, its not going to be a Heroic (Mythic) competitive raid spec.
Now what would be cool for them to do, is make Glad Stance replace Berzerker Stance instead of Defensive. Tanks could then pop Glad Stance while not currently tanking to boost their damage some/kill an add quick/whatever, and pop back into Defensive when its their turn to taunt. That is the only way I see Glad Stance being raid viable. Tune as necessary.
Could even expand the talent, do away with the silly life tap and give Fury/Arms a version that replaces a stance to do something special.
I am not saying I don't wish it was a 4th spec, because I really do want to see that. But the exploitation/bearcatting arguments are moot. Better arguments are, it's a huge weight to put on a singular talent or glyph, it provides a play style only available to level capped characters, despite being an amazing leveling option, this also means that players that do not try prot as a tank prior to lvl 100 are less likely to try this because they have no familiarity with the spec/play style AT ALL.
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"OH hey that shield is on rot, let me get that and try the S+B DPS spec I hear it's pretty viable."
*a few weeks go by*
"Man I am loving this S+B dps, but these DPS que times SUCK. I heard/read the rotation is basically the same for the tank spec, just have some extra off GCD defensive abilities and oh shit buttons maybe I will give that a try, can't hurt I have the gear"
*a few more weeks*
"So guys I have been loving the S+B DPS, and tanking staff for near instant ques in my downtime without having to change more then trinkets/rings is pretty awesome and it plays so similar. If we ever need a back up tank I AM TOTALLY YOUR MAN"
I don't think they'll make it so that it's as good as an actual DPS spec.
It would be a little dumb really for the other 1h/shield tanks to be competing against "Gladiator spec" all of a sudden for nicely itemised shields when the Warrior already has TWO other specs he could be playing (and also collecting weapons for).
Still, it's an interesting idea and one that I'm looking forward to trying. Hopefully if the "experiment" goes well they'll do similar things with other classes. It just screams "Glyph of Demon Hunting" to me though. It'll either be severely under or over-powered and a nightmare to balance such that they'll just nerf it to the ground like they did with Warlock tanking.
Edit: as the post above states, it's also a good idea as a gate-way into actual tanking. Same/similar rotation, you can even use the same gear (mostly) for it.
Edit2: there might also be some problems with the survivability this "spec" would get compared to the Arms + Fury Warriors. If it was on par with them for DPS, it might even be the only spec you'd want to play on some bosses given things like Last Stand, Barrier/Block/Stam+Arm+CritImmunity passives (none of which are tied to Def Stance) etc. You'd just be enjoying much less squishiness (whilst also having the ability to taunt and cooldown-tank a boss for a bit thanks to crit immune) overall whilst pumping out the same damage.
I guess it'll depend on what the full package looks like come WoD.
wait your argument is too much competition for shields? really? that is where you chose to go? /facepalm, there are 15 possible tanking combinations assuming a two tank roster(and for sake of simplicity our warrior is THE back up third tank). There is a 60% chance that shields will be contested by at least 1 tank, a 20% chance they will be contested by both tanks, and a 40% chance no one else gives a Rattus norvegicus' posterior about the shield.
I really hope it will turn prot into a dps spec. It's basically the reason I'm working on making a Warrior right now. I love being able to dps with a sword and shield. That's why I am looking forward to the D3 expac.
They are already talking about scraping the talent because they think it does too much for a simple talent, you think they are going to go through the work of balancing it to be competitive with Fury? Over a single talent? They can't even keep Arms and Fury balanced.
Keep in mind, this is at the same time that people are complaining that Rogue/Hunter specs are far too alike, and yet we are going to make a competitive S+B spec using the exact same rotation as the Tank spec. The talent is there for fun and to give you options. Not to make your Diablo 3 Crusader dreams come true.
As before I think you grossly misunderstand my definition of "competitive". Anything content that you are queuing for is not competitive. I am talking about Heroic (Mythic) raid Damage Dealing competitive. Which is a level that serious players don't even play Arms, because its behind Fury. Same reason most Locks don't have a Demo spec anymore, Rogues barely use Combat, and Hunters don't go Marks. These are the people that will play at the absolute top of the game, could you imagine the outrage if they started all going Prot just for Glad Stance? And thats ignoring the fact that it locks you out of the other two talents on the tree.
Use it in LFR, or Flex (normal). I am sure it will work just fine there, same as Arms does currently; but it won't be tuned to specifically be competitive with Fury I guarantee it.
Also, I'm not even going to touch your little roleplay at the bottom because that's about the most lawl-worthy thing I've read all weekend. Thanks for giving me a laugh.
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And here I thought everyone had dual spec now.
As you and the poster below you said, the druid split was because of innate tankiness/dps ability of being one spec, but that still applies here (although to a lesser extent, but still, having all of those defensive cooldowns would make it mandatory on a lot of fights even if it did slightly less damage.)
Edit: Since you just posted that it would be the exact same as a prot warrior rotation. If it was made into a fourth spec, I see no reason they wouldn't give it new/different abilities to make it a true sword and board dps spec.
Last edited by Keltas; 2013-12-08 at 03:56 AM.
Assuming 1 of each class minimum 2 of each class max, and no more then half your DPS as melee you can still max out at 8 strength 2H weapons required by your raid, you will never go above 4 strength shields.(all for main spec and assuming S+B dps is a viable spec.)
Also if they make DK's favor similar stat priorities between Blood and FOTM DPS spec, you have the exact same situation as what I proposed, for being a back up tank.
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It's merely one aspect, and a legitimate one. We already compete for 1-handers with the right stats. I'm sure your tank is going to get pissed pretty quick when your DPS Warrior with higher "loot points" takes the only shield they've seen so far so he can try this new thing everybody's buzzing about out. You roster and guild structure is not the same as everyone else's. I guarantee you that this will cause drama in some guilds.
Mind, if you'd read my post you'd know I'm excited to try this out on my Prot Warrior and you could have saved your fingers.
I hope not. Tanks are in general you know... more tanky. Even if they remove the "damage reduction" parts and the "increase stamina by %" parts on tank stances, they would still have active mitigation which would be incredibly annoying to deal with. Besides, they would be used more for CC than damage I reckon as well.
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=29144/ - lots of free mitigation, gives the DPS the ability to cooldown tank much more effectively than a Frost/UH/Ret/Kitty/WW can.
Barrier can be used defensively further adding to your ability to mitigate. You also get Last Stand, again just for respeccing. A cooldown is a cooldown.
Not sure if they said anything about Vengeance whilst using this stance. I know it wont increase your Attack Power anymore, but it will increase defensive skills... Barrier is a defensive so assuming that just by being Prot specced you would gain Vengeance, Barrier would scale, which means higher conversions into damage through SSlam. So that would need addressing to prevent Gladiators doing weird things like taunting adds to them or standing in boss blasts.
As I said... it depends on what the whole kit looks like come WoD. It's possible things like Demo Shout will be gone or base-line so the mitigation difference wont be a concern. If it were using the same kit as today and the spec did equal DPS, there'd be significant downsides to playing Arms and Fury.
I was not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, I was specifically pointing out how that is something that should not be a consideration for not implementing this.
And as for your points about Unwavering Sentinel, easy fix only active while in defensive stance. No defensive stance no Unwavering Sentinel. Shield Block and Shield barrier will as I mentioned be balanced around you having vengeance which you won't be able to get, so their contribution to survival will be greatly diminished if balancing is done correctly.
Vengeance warrior edition
Last edited by Skiboy; 2013-12-08 at 05:05 AM.
Can someone explain to me why tanks need to have viable dps?
Demo Shout is not raid wide. Tooltip in link, it specifically reduces the damage the effected target deals to you.
You don't get Vengeance when not in Defensive Stance, so it doesn't really matter how they change it.
DBTS is arguably better than Last Stand, though depends on the usage. If anything though, DPS specs have more survivability simply because of Defensive Stance 25% mitigation on demand.
This was the point I was trying to make. Despite my arguing on this thread, I like the talent. I really do, because it opens a lot of fun options for Prot Warriors. I have been trying to temper peoples expectations. There will of course be people who want to play it and will in lesser difficulties, but there are people here who assume it will be auto tuned to the same level of competitiveness as other "mainline" damage specs, which is rediculous. There isn't a magic button that tunes each spec, it's actually quite complicated, and they would never go through so much work for a single talent for a tank sub-spec.
If it was made into a true fourth spec, yes I expect it would be balanced better/more competitively and get new/different abilities as you said. We can hope that this Gladiator experiment leads to that in the future, but people need to remember that they are two very different things.
If they did that then just having LS and DShout wont be an issue. It's really moreso that passive that would make them a little *too* good in the defensive department since it's essentially the core of all tanks (crit immunity, stam boost and armour/dmg reduction).
That said... my real question... when it comes to "adding new specs" do warriors really need a 3rd melee DPS spec seeing as 1) they are already tank/DPS hybrids, and 2) this wouldn't even be adding anything new. Rogues have problems with specs feeling too different, hunters have problems with specs feeling too different, so the solution is to dump all effort into creating a 3rd melee physical DPS spec for warriors?
I mean, if warriors needed another spec (I don't think they do at this point), at least give them one that's a bit different (say, a "throw-warrior" or something).
As for Unwavering Sentinel; most boss abilities, aside from direct attacks, don't Crit; making that part relatively useless outside of PvP/Soloing. Only the ones that are physical damage are reduced by Armor, so the +25% Armor isn't amazing mitigation. So your really only left with +15% Stamina, which is an awesome passive to have; but I don't know if it is as good as an on demand, always available 25% damage mitigation with no cooldown.
It would be cool if they brought back Armed to the Teeth (Armor gives AP). I reckon its too much to bake it into the talent without the tooltip becoming a mile long, but if they ever truly made a 4th "Prot-DPS/Sword and Board" spec, it would be neat.
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