View Poll Results: Do you think Stance of the Gladiator will successfully allow prot to be viable dps?

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  • Yes

    222 24.92%
  • No

    238 26.71%
  • Skeptical yet possible

    431 48.37%
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  1. #61
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Demo Shout is not raid wide. Tooltip in link, it specifically reduces the damage the effected target deals to you.
    I realised that, I was thinking of Banner :P but I think it still stands. It's 20% per 1min vs 20% per 2min. I can count the number of times the parry add-on has saved me on 1 hand... The parry isn't worthless but it is far too situational to be as much flat reduction as D.Shout is.

    Fury and Arms give up considerable damage while they're sitting in D-Stance, not generating rage from normal attacks. That doesn't compare to free passive gains from all the boosts Prot Warriors enjoy which would need to be addressed (not least of all armour bonuses - on my char it's 45% as Arms, 61% as Prot). Then you have the versatility of Barrier (and Block) for fast mitigation. I think my Warrior's Barrier with 0 Vengeance (or buffs) absorbs roughly 100k. To mitigate that much with D-Stance would mean taking something that would've hit for 400k damage whilst in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    As for Unwavering Sentinel; most boss abilities, aside from direct attacks, don't Crit;
    But that's the point - if Unwavering Sentinel was left as is, your Gladiator Warrior is a valuable wipe prevention. Which is both awesome and a problem. "We would have killed that boss if the Warrior was Glad and taunted". No other DPS can cooldown tank a boss effectively or reliably. Not being crit immune is pretty much the reason why. If his first melee swing doesn't 1 shot you, his second will finish you off.

    The armour is a big deal on any boss that deals raid wide physical damage or uses physical abilities. They do exist and it's something you'd have to consider, especially when they're looking to make armour a valuable enough stat to appear on gear.

    This is why I'm not sure about it even though I want it. They'll have to do quite a bit of jiggling about to make sure Gladiator Warriors aren't too good in PvP or too good at DPS with only advantages over the other 2 specs or that they aren't so bad at DPS still that nobody will ever touch that talent. I can honestly see it going the way of Demon Hunting where they just decide it's too much effort and change it. It just seems way too ambitious for a single talent, when big playstyle changes should really have a whole tree behind them. Which would be a shame because it's the thing I'm most interested in trying out.
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  2. #62
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    HotW, for druids, will allow them to tank even heroic bosses for the brief amount of time needed to get a tank up, or even for that last 20-second boss kill thing. DA will allow warlocks to do this with most normal bosses- although they are unable to taunt, so thats a problem.

    But, as for the talent itself, I'm pretty sure that it will either be removed utterly, OR made into a glyph and preform sub-optimally compared to arms/fury, while causing hell in PvP balancing. You know, like how the DA glyph turned out.

    Seriously, its like blizz is going "How much of a new spec can we shove into a class without having to make a new spec", and with glyphs, they figured out "all of the new spec", then gutted it. Might as well just make a 4th spec entirely.
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  3. #63
    Pit Lord Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    I realised that, I was thinking of Banner :P but I think it still stands. It's 20% per 1min vs 20% per 2min. I can count the number of times the parry add-on has saved me on 1 hand... The parry isn't worthless but it is far too situational to be as much flat reduction as D.Shout is.
    I'd argue that DbtS has saved me more times than I could count when pulling aggro on things. And its situationally useful on progression bosses (H Sha of Fear, H Spoils, other fights with adds that need tanking). Its saved my life on Norushen and H Garrosh many times. Even occasionally useful I'd take its utility any day over 1 min less CD (and as a DPS you shouldn't often need your defensives on CD, that's what D stance is for)

    Fury and Arms give up considerable damage while they're sitting in D-Stance, not generating rage from normal attacks.
    They really don't. With even a little prior planning you can pool rage for your next CS, and even if you can't, you simply drop HS/WS from your rotation, which are not large contributors to Fury DPS. Still you shouldn't be sitting in the stance regardless.

    That doesn't compare to free passive gains from all the boosts Prot Warriors enjoy which would need to be addressed (not least of all armour bonuses - on my char it's 45% as Arms, 61% as Prot). Then you have the versatility of Barrier (and Block) for fast mitigation. I think my Warrior's Barrier with 0 Vengeance (or buffs) absorbs roughly 100k. To mitigate that much with D-Stance would mean taking something that would've hit for 400k damage whilst in it.
    But doing that will dumpster your damage too, so its a heavy trade off, D stance seriously does not noticeably hurt your damage unless your standing in it with your thumb up your ass. Besides, with 800k health (as DPS) I normally don't even bother to D stance 400k hits, 100k mitigation is nothing.

    But that's the point - if Unwavering Sentinel was left as is, your Gladiator Warrior is a valuable wipe prevention. Which is both awesome and a problem. "We would have killed that boss if the Warrior was Glad and taunted". No other DPS can cooldown tank a boss effectively or reliably. Not being crit immune is pretty much the reason why. If his first melee swing doesn't 1 shot you, his second will finish you off.
    I guess, but at the same time that's where your DBTS comes in. So I suppose you could call those a trade off. I think that situation would be relatively minor though, even not critting that boss is prob going to rape your Gladiator.

    The armour is a big deal on any boss that deals raid wide physical damage or uses physical abilities. They do exist and it's something you'd have to consider, especially when they're looking to make armour a valuable enough stat to appear on gear.
    They do exist, I said as much, but 25% extra armor is nothing compared to 25% flat damage reduction. Remember that 25% armor isn't additive (so not 50%-75%). The gain isn't nearly as much as you suppose.

    This is why I'm not sure about it even though I want it. They'll have to do quite a bit of jiggling about to make sure Gladiator Warriors aren't too good in PvP or too good at DPS with only advantages over the other 2 specs or that they aren't so bad at DPS still that nobody will ever touch that talent. I can honestly see it going the way of Demon Hunting where they just decide it's too much effort and change it. It just seems way too ambitious for a single talent, when big playstyle changes should really have a whole tree behind them. Which would be a shame because it's the thing I'm most interested in trying out.
    Which is why I said in the first place, they aren't going to make the talent super competitive. It isn't designed to. It's an experiment as much as anything else. Gives Prot something fun to do, and many people will play it, even if it is sub-optimal (akin to Arms - Fury or worse), but people fool themselves if they think its going to get all the tweaking of a proper spec. Way too much for a single talent. If the "experiment" works out, maybe some day we will see a 4th spec.

  4. #64
    I just wish tanking was like playing a Fiona in Vindictus. My brain couldnt handle that much awesome.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    HotW, for druids, will allow them to tank even heroic bosses for the brief amount of time needed to get a tank up, or even for that last 20-second boss kill thing. DA will allow warlocks to do this with most normal bosses- although they are unable to taunt, so thats a problem.

    But, as for the talent itself, I'm pretty sure that it will either be removed utterly, OR made into a glyph and preform sub-optimally compared to arms/fury, while causing hell in PvP balancing. You know, like how the DA glyph turned out.

    Seriously, its like blizz is going "How much of a new spec can we shove into a class without having to make a new spec", and with glyphs, they figured out "all of the new spec", then gutted it. Might as well just make a 4th spec entirely.
    This is what I'm afraid of.

    They'll flesh it out completely into a new spec, with morphed abilities and stuff like DA glyph was, but instead of just making it a new spec they'll nerf it to the ground and back and make sure it's just useless. (even though taking 5 seconds and just making it into a new spec would make so many people happy. Even DA glyph being turned into a tank spec would probably make a bunch of people happy, even if it was subpar.)

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Wazooty View Post
    I see no reason why blizz shouldn't apply this to all tanking specs, etc. The flavor/rotation should be the deciding factor for a spec, not necessarily the specs role.
    I don't think its to make them an actual dps spec, its just to give them some damage to do when they aren't taking hits at that point in time. Much like cat form for guardians (though I have no idea if currently its better to just stay in bear) and frost presence for dks.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3-N9zoI5c Amazing video of 60+ devilsaurs raiding Undercity!


    My God, what a horrible creation. People seeing what they want? Thank God they tried to shy away from that. I know it pisses me off when I'm in an heroic raid, yet in the back of my head all I can think is 'some casual player is playing a heroic dungeon and not wiping.' -Vodkarn

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Vongimi View Post
    I don't think its to make them an actual dps spec, its just to give them some damage to do when they aren't taking hits at that point in time. Much like cat form for guardians (though I have no idea if currently its better to just stay in bear) and frost presence for dks.
    As it was shown at blizzcon, the talent 100% locks you out of being a viable tank.

  8. #68
    Sorry, forgot that it replaces defencive stance

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Anufis View Post
    Sorry, forgot that it replaces defencive stance
    No you can't. It REPLACES DEFENSIVE STANCE.
    (e)apparently in the ten seconds it took to type that he fixed his post.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Vellerix View Post
    if I was ever able to dps with a shield I would drop every single one of my other characters in a heartbeat and never look back.
    This so much i cry!
    I would never ever play any of my other toons!

    Im fucking serius too! Holy shit i didnt even think of this when i did read the Talent!

  11. #71
    Why would any tank pick this over blade barrier?

  12. #72
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumatran View Post
    Why would any tank pick this over blade barrier?
    Tanks would not pick this, because this isn't a tanking talent. This is a dps talent that gives warriors what amounts to 3 dps specs and a tanking spec.

    I guess the only reason a tank would pick this up are for certain fights where all they really need to do is pick up an add that comes out from time to time. There aren't many fights like that anymore though.
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    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  13. #73
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Tanks would not pick this, because this isn't a tanking talent. This is a dps talent that gives warriors what amounts to 3 dps specs and a tanking spec. I guess the only reason a tank would pick this up are for certain fights where all they really need to do is pick up an add that comes out from time to time. There aren't many fights like that anymore though.
    The talent would not allow you to tank at all because it removes Defensive Stance. So actual tank warriors would only have two 100 talents.

    As stated above this is a horrible idea for multiple reasons not least because of the point above. This belongs in "gimmick glyph" category that doesn't make for a true viable DPS spec, but rather say a Prot-focused warrior who dislikes having to off-spec/gear to do minor stuff like quest/world mobs. Similar to Paladin Glyph of Holy Shock say.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    The talent would not allow you to tank at all because it removes Defensive Stance. So actual tank warriors would only have two 100 talents.

    As stated above this is a horrible idea for multiple reasons not least because of the point above. This belongs in "gimmick glyph" category that doesn't make for a true viable DPS spec, but rather say a Prot-focused warrior who dislikes having to off-spec/gear to do minor stuff like quest/world mobs. Similar to Paladin Glyph of Holy Shock say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    We should link the tweets to get into some context:

    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...49647975976960

    "Turns Prot into a DPS spec, no longer a tank. Has some significant design implications, so is definitely an experiment." and

    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...80958848847872

    "Sidenote: We recognize that it basically means true tanks only have 2 talents to pick. We're making adjustments to solve that."

    So, facts:

    1) It's intended to be a DPS spec, not a tank.
    2) It may not pass beta.

    If you ask me, it will probably not pass beta, because either the spec it's simply worse than both fury/arms and can't compete, or it's simply best without question, unless they manage to rip us off of every additional survival passives/CDs/skills/stam prot warriors have not tied to the stance.
    They would rework the talent to provide a third one for tanking. If it pass the cut.

  15. #75
    Herald of the Titans crakerjack's Avatar
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    Doesn't make any sense to have prot as a dps spec... not only would that interfere with PvP and cause more balancing, but then other tanks would complain and would want a dps/tank spec. Tanks should always be tanks and nothing else... last time they weren't, was in Wotlk when tanks in PvP were out of control. I played a prot warrior and i'd get 20k shield slams... it was pretty ridiculous. With a crap ton of armor and resil, that makes tanks pretty damn hard to kill and if you add a lot of dmg to that, it makes it unfair.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    The talent would not allow you to tank at all because it removes Defensive Stance. So actual tank warriors would only have two 100 talents.

    As stated above this is a horrible idea for multiple reasons not least because of the point above. This belongs in "gimmick glyph" category that doesn't make for a true viable DPS spec, but rather say a Prot-focused warrior who dislikes having to off-spec/gear to do minor stuff like quest/world mobs. Similar to Paladin Glyph of Holy Shock say.
    Wouldn't be horrible for fights your prot pally can cheese-solo-tank, and your warrior tank doesn't keep his DPS set up to par.

    That being said, though, to get serious numbers out of it, you'd still need to optimise gear for it.

  17. #77
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    That being said, though, to get serious numbers out of it, you'd still need to optimise gear for it.
    Right, I'd imagine it would just be for prot-focused warriors who don't want to get a second and/or 2H weapon so he can just quest in tank spec by changing a glyph.

    Would probably be most focused for early expansion where it's more of a PITA to get that extra gear, and maintaining/learning multiple specs (with changes) can be a tall order. I'd imagine later on, such a function would have a lot less demand.

  18. #78
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    I'd have to say that, in regards to gearing, it might not be that hard to acquire a competent dps spec as a tank, given that tanks will probably be able to use most of the new stats that dps can also use. So all you would really need is a good main hand/off hand weapon, whether its a 2 hander, dual wielding, ect.

    A bit of reiteration- if this made it live as a viable dps spec, it would be very cool, and exciting, but it most likely won't make it to beta as a talent, and will probably wind up as a non-viable glyph.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  19. #79
    They should really balance the numbers and make you not remotely tank viable but do nearly what a dps war does for dps, then make it replace battle stance. Gives prot warriors viable damage as well as able to switch to more dps-oriented stance when they need to instead of replacing D stance and being stupid for actual tanks. I would rather it be in addition to D stance instead of replacing it and making it super niche and unviable.
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  20. #80
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    They should really balance the numbers and make you not remotely tank viable but do nearly what a dps war does for dps, then make it replace battle stance. Gives prot warriors viable damage as well as able to switch to more dps-oriented stance when they need to instead of replacing D stance and being stupid for actual tanks. I would rather it be in addition to D stance instead of replacing it and making it super niche and unviable.
    One thing that blizzard has said they do not want, and have moved away from, is any tank spec that can easily swap between tank-mode and dps-mode, and be viable at both. That's why they removed the DK trinity tank/dps specs, and that's why they seperated guardian and feral.

    So, if it IS implemented, AND can dps just as well as arms/fury, it WILL replace defensive stance, OR make the warrior unable to use this and tank in the same fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

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