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  1. #1

    The Purple Precedent: Why it is bad for the community

    Firstly, lets try and have a civil discussion about this topic.

    Upon reaching max level gear becomes the primary resource used to improve our characters ability to function effectively in World of Warcraft. In this current state purple gear has become appropriately termed as welfare epics because upon reaching max level there really isn't much effort required to acquire your first purple.

    The problem with this system is that it subconsciously imprints onto a new or inexperienced player that this is the rate of acquiring purple gear in current WoW which truthfully isn't the case. Once you have gathered up your Timeless Isle epics the rate at which you get useful epics sees a drastic decrease. This alone, in the mind of a new player, breaks that mental precedent for gearing and can very easily have a negative effect on a player. Most players will eventually adopt a more mature mindset about the matter but many others will develop an entitled mentality. Epics came so easy in the beginning, why are epics now so difficult and time consuming to acquire.

    This system could simply be avoided if Blizzard invested more into the colour of gear and instead of catch-up mechanics rewarding purples they could reward blues, which come dime a dozen the moment you hit level 15. The precedent that Rare gear is easy to come by has been set and it certainly isn't going anywhere. If people establish the mindset that blues are the easy to obtain gear(even if stats are on par with epics of similar ilvl) and purples are the gear that require Raiding(I'm going to include LFR in this but feel free to discuss it). People will have a better sense of accomplishment when they actually obtain this gear.

    I understand that this creates a division in the community but truthfully this division already exists. I can't imagine that this will cause a greater division between players then already exists. When Blizzard started giving epics to everyone people evolved into checking Gear scores and when that was removed they just used their understanding of Ilvls, talent allocation, glyphs, enchanting, achievements and gems amongst other things. A difference in gear colour won't create a division that doesn't already exist.

    While I am sure people will discuss other potential problems I truly believe making the colour of gear have a more concrete meaning in character development could have psychological benefits to the overall playerbase and their comprehension of time spent constructively = greater reward.

    Current Model
    If you have Blue Gear - Congratulations you are past level 15 and developing your character towards max level
    If you have Purple Gear- Congratulations you hit level 90, you may or may not be raiding
    If you have Orange Gear - Congratulations you've committed a substantial amount of time, skill and energy to acquire it

    Proposed Model
    If you have Blue Gear - Congratulations you are past level 15 and developing your character towards max level
    If you have Purple Gear- Congratulations you have spent a Reasonable amount of Time, Skill and Energy Raiding to acquire it
    If you have Orange Gear - Congratulations you've committed a substantial amount of time, skill and energy to acquire it

    I understand that epics are available prior to max level but I'm confident in your ability to understand the point I'm trying to drive home.

    Skill matters to me much more than gear but don't fool yourself into thinking that the colour of the gear doesn't have its own significance otherwise all gear would be colourless.

    I'm on the fence as to whether or not LFR would be included because while it certainly doesn't feel like raiding to me it does require a lot of time and energy and I don't consider those who put up with it to be second class citizens. I can certainly see how giving LFR blue gear with the same stats would influence more people to progress into flex simply for the status but it may not sit well with people.

    You can freely apply all of this to PvP as well as I stand by this system their too.

    Feel free to discuss =)

  2. #2
    Or just delete item quality they no longer mean anything anyway and it would stop peoples from qqing because of epics being too easy to get.
    iLVL is more accurate when it comes to determinate how "advanced" a piece is.
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  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Tychus's Avatar
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    Item level is the new gear quality (at least in a more broad & formal sense than in the past). Color is incidental.
    time is money - money is power - power corrupts

  4. #4
    I agree but I'm not sure that many fans of the RPG genre would enjoy an integral part of RPGs for ages to be removed entirely. If this were a FPS I doubt this would be a problem but WoW just can't logically abandon a system that the entire genre is pretty much built upon.

    I think the best solution is to allow gear colour to have a definite meaning, when you see someones gear colour it should trigger a mental response in relation to how they have acquired it and how much work went into it.

    Greens are from question/crafting, Blues are from dungeons/crafting and epics are from damn near anything which just isn't a logical progression. At least legendary items have maintained their stature. Yes the cloak does maintain it even though everyone has it, the only change is that anyone can put in the time and effort to acquire it instead of one person at a time in your raiding guild.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tychus View Post
    Item level is the new gear quality (at least in a more broad & formal sense than in the past). Color is incidental.
    A green and blue item of the same itemlvl has different stat budgets as far as I know :P aka, the blue will always have more. Same with epic, so the "color" still plays a rather big part in it :P

  6. #6
    This problem exists only in peoples heads and on forums where "epic isn't epic" had become another bandwagon saying thrown around, in truth epics stopped being epic in BWL when you placed you MC gear and it's only grown from there.

    As there is no such thing as gear who's colour changes over time and while there is 9 years worth of raids and content any talk of what epics were or are now is pointless.

    The only thing that matters is what's written next to it; Raid Finder, Flex, Heroic or Warforged (normals blank right?) or it's ilevel, and even then only until the next tier comes out and we take another step on the treadmill.
    "The fact that you don't get it or like it is fine. The fact that you wanna ruin it for everyone else - that's why you're a cocksucker." - Bill Hicks
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    The playerbase has been desiring this for years and when it's finally here, everyone wants to grab a pitchfork. Ridiculous. This community is disgustingly toxic.
    Please send all PM's with a read receipt, that way both you and I will know I'm not reading them....

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by VileGenesis View Post
    A green and blue item of the same itemlvl has different stat budgets as far as I know :P aka, the blue will always have more. Same with epic, so the "color" still plays a rather big part in it :P
    Not anymore, sadly. It was that way up through WotLK, but they changed it in Cataclysm. I can't find any items of identical item level, but http://www.wowhead.com/item=84012 is a pair of ilvl 437 green mail intellect pants, with 706 intellect, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=80910 is a pair of ilvl 435 blue mail intellect pants with 693 intellect.

    These days, all item level indicates is either:
    1) source (dungeon gear is blue, raid gear is epic, etc), or
    2) Level it can be used at (http://www.wowhead.com/item=80910 is a pair of epic ilvl 440 agility pants that can be equipped at level 87, lower than you'd normally be able to equip something of that ilvl)

    Edit: Another example:
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=82543 Dreaming Spirit Guantlets, blue ilvl 434, 510 intellect
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=88129 Withered Wood Handguards, green ilvl 437, 524 intellect (+14)
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=87364 Gloves of Sanctity, blue ilvl 440, 539 intellect (+15)
    Linear stat progression despite the change in color
    Last edited by darkwarrior42; 2013-12-06 at 05:46 PM.

  8. #8
    As Purples haven't been special for three-four expansions, why bother changing it now?
    The only people whose attitudes need adjusting are the people who somehow still after this many years haven't worked out how common they are yet

  9. #9
    I honestly don't know how this topic has been beaten to death and resurrected for the purpose of more beatings so many times. All the points have been covered and even acknowledged by Blizzard multiple times and yet epics remain as common as they are for 3 and soon to be 4 expansions most likely. Its pretty clear that this matters to a niche group of people and it is placed accordingly in Blizzard's workload. Which is near the bottom otherwise this would've stopped halfway through WoTLK.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooboy View Post
    This problem exists only in peoples heads and on forums where "epic isn't epic" had become another bandwagon saying thrown around, in truth epics stopped being epic in BWL when you placed you MC gear and it's only grown from there.

    As there is no such thing as gear who's colour changes over time and while there is 9 years worth of raids and content any talk of what epics were or are now is pointless.

    The only thing that matters is what's written next to it; Raid Finder, Flex, Heroic or Warforged (normals blank right?) or it's ilevel, and even then only until the next tier comes out and we take another step on the treadmill.
    Colour still is an indication of progression, if you see a level 90 in all greens you have a comprehension of either they just hit level 90 or they aren't very knowledgeable about what to do next. Someone in all Blues at 90 is someone who has probably spent a fair amount of time in between questing, dungeons and potentially crafting/auction house. Someone in all purples could very well be anyone at max level, of course you have the tag that indicates where they acquired it and that doesn't need to change but these systems matter to people even if it is only at a subconscious level.

    When you create these colour precedents it reflects on the community and their philosophy on how these sorts of things are obtained. I really don't have a problem with all difficulties of raiding to give out Epics but catch-up mechanics where someone can get full epics in absurdly short periods of time should not be considered epic. It is damaging to the precedent, even LFR takes a lot of work in some cases(mostly in the form of patience) and I can rationalize why they deserve purple gear, though not all of them do. I personally wouldn't mind if LFR rewarded gear with equal stats to everyone but the top 12 overall performers receive Epics and the rest receive Rares.

    Giving people a certain colour gear needs to mean something otherwise they may as well do as was suggested above and remove colours entirely. When you get a purple piece of gear it should be because you earned it, give blue gear with equivalent stat allocation to those who underachieved to encourage them to step their game up. I promise you it will make a difference, subtle things like colour matter a lot more to people then most would think.

  11. #11
    Honestly.

    How about:

    Is it better than what you have equipped in that slot (ilvl wise)? Yes! It's green.
    Is it a sidegrade? Yes! It's white.
    Is it a downgrade? Yes! It's Red.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    I honestly don't know how this topic has been beaten to death and resurrected for the purpose of more beatings so many times. All the points have been covered and even acknowledged by Blizzard multiple times and yet epics remain as common as they are for 3 and soon to be 4 expansions most likely. Its pretty clear that this matters to a niche group of people and it is placed accordingly in Blizzard's workload. Which is near the bottom otherwise this would've stopped halfway through WoTLK.
    I'm sure we could make a large list of things that have been in WoW since Vanilla for years that have changed, when change makes sense it should happen. I'm not the type who wants to run around town sitting on the mailbox waiting for people to /inspect in awe. I just think Blizzard needs to do a better job about the precedents they set around gear, things like Timeless Isle should not be spitting out epics. They shouldn't change the stat allocation but having a colour system is completely pointless if it doesn't have any significance. Why isn't all gear purple because at this point it might as well be, and really if this is the direction Blizzard wants to go then I'll support them but until they do I have to assume they at least consider the colour system to have some value and thus they need to better define the value of it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    Honestly.

    How about:

    Is it better than what you have equipped in that slot (ilvl wise)? Yes! It's green.
    Is it a sidegrade? Yes! It's white.
    Is it a downgrade? Yes! It's Red.
    Problem with that is determining what constitutes an upgrade. Frankly, I don't want the game determining what gear I should use. Which is why the current gear comparison system is good.

    As for the "purple should be special" crowd. How about we add a bucket of bright pink paint to the hard mode boss loot tables. Then you can paint your gear pink and be special. Otherwise, you should realize that purple is just a color and move on.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

  14. #14
    I do understand your point, and coming from Vanilla and TBC experience I am totally at your side with this issue.

    That being said, even though my old-school self screams every time it sees a welfare purple item, the days of gear (PVE or PVP wise!!) actually being a visual indicator of your efficiency and dedication are long gone and can't come back.
    Blizzard has seen that players automatically run away from whatever they may perceive as a "time sink", be it a truly useless grind, or a meaningful one (i.e.: acquiring decent gear by yourself, in order to prepare for whatever you're going to do).
    Since Blizzard is here for the money, rather than for the players, the logical answer to this was, and still is, to lower the bar in order to reduce the amount of time needed to reach the same goal. The problem lies in the fact that players will soon get used to the new threshold, and start calling it "a boring grind". This leads to people unsubbing, Blizzard lowering the bar once more, repeat ad libitum.
    This is what lead to epics being thrown in your face, and means of identifying bad/lazy players being removed one after the other.

    The players are now too much used to this way of dealing with the endgame. Even though I DO remember fondly the days of gear showing your dedication to the game and use of your brain (yes, as horrifying as it may sound, people couldn't care less if your three afternoon activities kept you from finding the best gear: you either adapted to it, or aimed to something lower), those times are over. Economically speaking, anything from absolute fast-food gear will lead to a loos of subs, vbecause even the smallest pebble between the player and instant skill-less epics will be perceived as a new Mount Everest.

    People kept playing and sweating through dungeons and raids and battlegrounds because they wanted that epic piece of gear, be it pve or pvp, and they either grew a spine or had to quit and go back to something clearly easier.
    As of now, players just need to stop subbing and throw their money at any other MMO that will handle them free epic gear.

  15. #15

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by VileGenesis View Post
    A green and blue item of the same itemlvl has different stat budgets as far as I know :P aka, the blue will always have more. Same with epic, so the "color" still plays a rather big part in it :P
    LOnger there are items with same ilvl but different colors. and yes stats increase with ilvl. look at 415 crafted rare pieces and 429 world drop/quest gears. 429 > 415

  17. #17
    Bloodsail Admiral Tychus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yimereh View Post
    Giving people a certain colour gear needs to mean something otherwise they may as well do as was suggested above and remove colours entirely. When you get a purple piece of gear it should be because you earned it, give blue gear with equivalent stat allocation to those who underachieved to encourage them to step their game up. I promise you it will make a difference, subtle things like colour matter a lot more to people then most would think.
    So do you feel that 60, 70, 80, and 85 purples should be re-colored? Previous-tier 90 purples (eg Mogu'shan, etc)?
    Last edited by Tychus; 2013-12-06 at 06:26 PM.
    time is money - money is power - power corrupts

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    Problem with that is determining what constitutes an upgrade. Frankly, I don't want the game determining what gear I should use. Which is why the current gear comparison system is good.

    As for the "purple should be special" crowd. How about we add a bucket of bright pink paint to the hard mode boss loot tables. Then you can paint your gear pink and be special. Otherwise, you should realize that purple is just a color and move on.
    I wish it was that simple my friend but colours matter to people, these little things that are insignificant to one person can be very impactful to another. You simply need to observe people's habits outside of WoW and this becomes very evident. I have not interest in the colour of an item but Blizzard is the one that set the precedent for colour and if they want to remove it then they should go ahead and just do it. Until then I have to assume they consider the colour system to have value.

    I personally couldn't careless if my starting gear was purple, I get purple gear from questing 1-90 and continue to get purple gear from raiding but that just isn't the way the system works. Blizzard went out of their way to include greens and blues in 85-90 content and that suggests to me they still care about the colour system for gear. I am willing to bet money this trend will continue from 90-100 and the question I ask is why. If these colours don't matter why keep them in the current system and not just remove them, probably because a % of the community would absolutely lose their shit, I mean look how people are reacting to flying in WoD and that isn't significant to a lot of people but to others it is game breaking.

    All I'm saying is Blizzard intends to keep the colour system then give it a more defined value and stick with it, it is probably more difficult currently to get full blues starting at 85 then it is to get full purples at 90. If blues were the pre-raid standard, regardless of whether it is catch-up content, I think people would begin to develop a more realistic expectation on acquiring gear. The current system throws epics at you from Timeless isle, gives you a % chance of getting epics from LFR(which is a very significant change) and then turns into a human controlled distribution system starting in flex. I don't know how to fix all of these things currently but people are habit forming and don't like change, the way epics are acquired changes far too drastically far too quickly. These sorts of conditions applied to anything in life will breed frustration amongst many people and I certainly don't think it helps the mindset of some new players of which many develop an entitled mentality.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tychus View Post
    So do you feel that 60, 70, 80, and 85 purples should be re-colored? Previous-tier 90 purples (eg Mogu'shan, etc)?
    Yup. Everything should be recoloured. Epics should be exclusive to raid content (Yes, that includes LFR, stop crying). Blues should be exclusive to actual rare quest rewards, reputation rewards, dungeon rewards. Green should be common quest rewards for elaborate quests (no, Blizz, not every dipshit quest were you walk 10m to talk to someone, I know you like to overdo idiocy... but then, you ain't gonna read it anyway :P)

    And they have to fix the damn iLevel gaps. No, we don't need a gap of 50 iLevels between the worst item of a content and the best, ffs. No wonder you're breaking your own engine if you go around whoring numbers like that... sheesh.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Tychus View Post
    So do you feel that 60, 70, 80, and 85 purples should be re-colored? Previous-tier 90 purples (eg Mogu'shan, etc)?
    Assuming we maintain a coloured gear structure I don't think it would be unreasonable(assuming an infinite amount of programming time which isn't realistic) for anyone who acquired a purple piece of gear to have it maintain it's colour as a testament to their accomplishment but once a new expansion begins downgrade the colour of the gear acquired post release as it is no longer difficult to acquire. In a perfect world of warcraft allow players to obtain the past tiers purple quality if they approach it in a normalized mode, otherwise it will be rare. Maybe even give purple quality gear a cosmetic gem slot that adds no stats but allows for some minor customization in order to establish an incentive for acquiring purple gear. This isn't necessary but in the future it could be nice, it would suffer from elitism though but that already exists anyways.

    Edit: Wanted to clarify people who obtain the gear when the content was relevant should get to keep it at its colour quality but anyone who acquires it past that(excluding normalized difficulties) should get the rare quality version.
    Last edited by Yimereh; 2013-12-06 at 06:37 PM.

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