1. #2521
    Pit Lord Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptaylor38 View Post
    Well given the proximity to Undercity I'm assuming something having to do with a mass production of more undead by Sylvannas. But that quote might have been made before her new agenda. Other possibilities would be somekind of Naga stronghold or possibly a Nathrezim base.

    Literally nothing else I can think of that isn't Old God or Old God related.
    Yeah. Just because it isn't an Old God doesn't mean it can't be something related to them, but the Nathrezim is a good catch, it may be related to the Legion in some way or other. With respect to the undead, I doubt it, the whispers predate Sylvanas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    Fel energy tends to make people weaker at first, then stronger in larger amounts of intake. For instance, take a look at Gul'dan compared to the other Warlords, then compared to the Fel Orcs. Same with Blood Elves, however their bright red hair may just be dye - they are mostly physically the same as High Elves with slightly lighter skin and fel green eyes.
    Yes, fel has a transformative element to it. Whether it makes one weaker at first or not I don't know, Gul'dan is just one warlock in the grand scheme of things; it may do that but I'm more interested in its ultimate effect. The blood elves are/were still pretty early in that transformative phase, barring the felbloods who sped things up a bit by consuming demonic energies directly from terrorguards.

    Really, I'd like them to clear up the arcane, its relation to fel and Nether energies more generally and their transformative effects. I think you picked up on what I consider to be inconsistencies in the whole story with regard to the "shrinking" (as troll descendents, they were large with or without the Well or Nordrassil) and the different effects the Shen'dralar have experienced. I am sure they'll clear it all up at some point and reveal whether there's some other agent acting on the high elves' evolution.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2014-05-15 at 11:27 PM.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

  2. #2522
    Pale skin is not the special trait of highborne. As I said before Varo'then proves this. Azshara had deep purple skin. Also Illidan who involved himself heavily in arcane art had purple skin. He was not a highborne though. HB was just a social status. Physical appearance varies among them.

    Also, NE transformation to HE didn't happen because of arcane. It was because they were cut off from life-giving Well of Eternity. They basically grew weaker.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2014-05-15 at 11:32 PM.

  3. #2523
    Pit Lord Zathrendar's Avatar
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    It was a bit more than a social status - they engaged in selective breeding, that resulted in increasing levels of proficiency in the arcane. Honestly, I'm split on whether they would have a unique appearance to them, but Azshara is silver-haired, and purple skin isn't out of line with the sort of colorations the arcane tends to result in.
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  4. #2524
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Yeah. Just because it isn't an Old God doesn't mean it can't be something related to them, but the Nathrezim is a good catch, it may be related to the Legion in some way or other. With respect to the undead, I doubt it, the whispers predate Sylvanas.

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    Yes, fel has a transformative element to it. Whether it makes one weaker at first or not I don't know, Gul'dan is just one warlock in the grand scheme of things; it may do that but I'm more interested in its ultimate effect. The blood elves are/were still pretty early in that transformative phase, barring the felbloods who sped things up a bit by consuming demonic energies directly from terrorguards.

    Really, I'd like them to clear up the arcane, its relation to fel and Nether energies more generally and their transformative effects. I think you picked up on what I consider to be inconsistencies in the whole story with regard to the "shrinking" (as troll descendents, they were large with or without the Well or Nordrassil) and the different effects the Shen'dralar have experienced. I am sure they'll clear it all up at some point and reveal whether there's some other agent acting on the high elves' evolution.
    I was using Gul'dan as just one example. Felblood Elves and Fel Orcs are basically the full-on demon forms of those races. Until then they're just paler and weaker than their counterparts.

    As far as transforming, Trolls and Elves all change based on magic or location. All the different troll races are different heights, have different muscle sizes, and skin tones. Night Elves came from Dark Trolls - we haven't seen those in WoW, but there was concept art of them in Cata. They could have been about the same height. However, they transformed originally by either Elune, the Well of Eternity, or both. I'm guessing both, since without the Well, they didn't change back into Trolls, but still changed into another race. They also look like Cenarius' upper half, and he is the direct son of Elune. However, all those races are capable of transforming completely based on many factors.

    The real deciding factor to explain everything will be Elune, who we don't have much true evidence on. Everything else is explained by "magic".

    As far as fel energy, the Legion is drawn to places that use arcane energy in high concentrations, thus their communication with the Highborne and Eredar. Arcane energy seems to be the purest form of energy in the twisting nether. Fel energy seems to be just a "dark" version of that. Both types of magic are used by demons, and are easy for mages to learn. Necromancy falls under this category, being derived from fel energy originally.
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  5. #2525
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    Yeah I agree on most of that, it is consistent with what I've gleaned from the lore thus far, however I'm still not sure that there is anything to suggest that fel would make one weaker than their counterparts who don't use it. Green orcs are no weaker than brown orcs, to my knowledge. And again, fel is described as both increasing ruddiness and palour, so it has one or the other effect, not just the latter.

    Elune may be the wildcard here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Also, NE transformation to HE didn't happen because of arcane. It was because they were cut off from life-giving Well of Eternity. They basically grew weaker.
    Possibly but then this should've occurred to the Shen'dralar as well as any other elves cut off from the Well, and does not explain why they would diminish in size, when the starting point was dark trolls, who would not have been enlarged much by the Well in the first place.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2014-05-15 at 11:39 PM.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

  6. #2526
    Magic mon.
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  7. #2527
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    It was a bit more than a social status - they engaged in selective breeding, that resulted in increasing levels of proficiency in the arcane. Honestly, I'm split on whether they would have a unique appearance to them, but Azshara is silver-haired, and purple skin isn't out of line with the sort of colorations the arcane tends to result in.
    Purple skin is common trait of NE. Nothing to do with arcane.

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    Possibly but then this should've occurred to the Shen'dralar as well as any other elves cut off from the Well, and does not explain why they would diminish in size, when the starting point was dark trolls, who would not have been enlarged much by the Well in the first place.
    It's not just possible. It's stated in official lore. May not make sense but it's official not speculation. Also, Shren'dalar and the NE are not cut from WoE. World Tree is 2nd WoE.

  8. #2528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Purple skin is common trait of NE. Nothing to do with arcane.
    True enough. On the other hand, its own coloration is a vivid purple. If you look at the creatures transformed by it in Dragonblight, they tend to have a mixture of pale white and purple colours, and in some case blue. It may mirror the divergence in appearances fel can create, just in a more attenuated form. So if the creature is already purple, it will just become ruddier and thus a deeper purple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post

    It's not just possible. It's stated in official lore. May not make sense but it's official not speculation. Also, Shren'dalar and the NE are not cut from WoE. World Tree is 2nd WoE.
    Could you quote it then? And to my knowledge the Shen'dralar were cut off from it, hence why they resorted to draining Immolthar to retain their immortality.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

  9. #2529
    Could you quote it then? And to my knowledge the Shen'dralar were cut off from it, hence why they resorted to draining Immolthar to retain their immortality.
    http://www.wowhead.com/object=175733...-of-quelthalas It's an ingame book.

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    True enough. On the other hand, its own coloration is a vivid purple. If you look at the creatures transformed by it in Dragonblight, they tend to have a mixture of pale white and purple colours, and in some case blue. It may mirror the divergence in appearances fel can create, just in a more attenuated form. So if the creature is already purple, it will just become ruddier and thus a deeper purple.
    Don't know what I could say because this is pure speculation. Malfurion has deep purple skin you know.

  10. #2530
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    The way it reads is this:

    Since they were effectively cut off from the life-giving energies of the Well of Eternity, many of them fell ill from the frigid climate or died from starvation. The most disconcerting change, however, was the fact that they were no longer immortal or immune to the elements. They also shrank somewhat in height, and their skin lost its characteristic violet hue. Despite their hardships, they encountered many wondrous creatures that had never been seen in Kalimdor.
    So I can see why you would make that inference (even though it doesn't explicitly link the changes/hardships to the Well but lists the effects of deprivation from it as one of many, arguably), but it's basically an in-game book, written by an NPC who may have no idea of the totality of effects acting on high elf evolution.

    It really doesn't make a great deal of sense when everything is taken together, and I hope Blizzard will go into a bit more depth about it than this rather brief account.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

  11. #2531
    Arcane magic very odd voodoo
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  12. #2532
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    The way it reads is this:



    So I can see why you would make that inference (even though it doesn't explicitly link the changes/hardships to the Well but lists the effects of deprivation from it as one of many, arguably), but it's basically an in-game book, written by an NPC who may have no idea of the totality of effects acting on high elf evolution.

    It really doesn't make a great deal of sense when everything is taken together, and I hope Blizzard will go into a bit more depth about it than this rather brief account.
    That's all lore has to offer on the topic. If you don't believe to be canon then it's fine but atm Highborne were not physically different from NE in general. Many individuals prove this.

  13. #2533
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Yeah. Just because it isn't an Old God doesn't mean it can't be something related to them, but the Nathrezim is a good catch, it may be related to the Legion in some way or other. With respect to the undead, I doubt it, the whispers predate Sylvanas.

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    Yes, fel has a transformative element to it. Whether it makes one weaker at first or not I don't know, Gul'dan is just one warlock in the grand scheme of things; it may do that but I'm more interested in its ultimate effect. The blood elves are/were still pretty early in that transformative phase, barring the felbloods who sped things up a bit by consuming demonic energies directly from terrorguards.

    Really, I'd like them to clear up the arcane, its relation to fel and Nether energies more generally and their transformative effects. I think you picked up on what I consider to be inconsistencies in the whole story with regard to the "shrinking" (as troll descendents, they were large with or without the Well or Nordrassil) and the different effects the Shen'dralar have experienced. I am sure they'll clear it all up at some point and reveal whether there's some other agent acting on the high elves' evolution.

    Could be a spider kingdom too.

  14. #2534
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    The way it reads is this:



    So I can see why you would make that inference (even though it doesn't explicitly link the changes/hardships to the Well but lists the effects of deprivation from it as one of many, arguably), but it's basically an in-game book, written by an NPC who may have no idea of the totality of effects acting on high elf evolution.

    It really doesn't make a great deal of sense when everything is taken together, and I hope Blizzard will go into a bit more depth about it than this rather brief account.
    In-game books are canon and lore, even if some of the information changed over time. They are considered lore by Blizzard, same as the lore items in Pandaria/IoT. Doesn't matter if it's only one account by some random NPC, it's actually canon, considered to be the absolute truth until stated otherwise.
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  15. #2535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas View Post
    In-game books are canon and lore, even if some of the information changed over time. They are considered lore by Blizzard, same as the lore items in Pandaria/IoT. Doesn't matter if it's only one account by some random NPC, it's actually canon, considered to be the absolute truth until stated otherwise.
    When I first started playing the entire contents of those in game books was posted on the official site as the history of the world for players to read up on. This was after TBC had already retconned the draenei/eredar story, but the whole collected thing was still canon enough for them to make available on their site for anyone who wanted to catch up on their lore.

  16. #2536
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    I will say it again. Highborne look exactly the same as any Night Elf physically. Just look at Captian Varo'then. He was HB and had black hair and generic purple skin. Magic didn't alter the HB to look different. Illidan look just like average NE if not for his arcane tattoo despite involving himself heavily in arcane art. Silver Hair and skin ARE NOT special trait of Highborne.

    They were simply a group of people who were convinced that they were superior to the rest of their kind.
    It was not exclusive, just common among the upper class. This is why most highborne in the game all have white hair and skin. See Dire Maul. Exceptions to a norm don't negate a norm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    what are you trying to get at?
    Nothing for you to be concerned about understanding.
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  17. #2537
    It was not exclusive, just common among the upper class. This is why most highborne in the game all have white hair and skin. See Dire Maul. Exceptions to a norm don't negate a norm.
    and plenty of highborne outside of Diremaul with no white hair and pale skin. It's common because white hair and pale skin are not recognizable about HB. It's just generic night elf thing. Highborne like Captian Varo'then was not an exception in appearance. He looked normal.

  18. #2538
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    and plenty of highborne outside of Diremaul with no white hair and pale skin. It's common because white hair and pale skin are not recognizable about HB. It's just generic night elf thing. Highborne like Captian Varo'then was not an exception in appearance. He looked normal.
    As I mentioned before, it's implied in the War of the Ancients trilogy that Varo'then wasn't born into the caste. Unlike the Highborne, he knows little magic. He had scars and fought physically - the Moon Guard and Azshara's personal guard were the closest types of soldiers to him, and they mostly used magic in combat, unlike Ravencrest's army and Varo'then himself. He only used magic a few times, and it was small magic at that (the narrator even mentioning that Varo'then only knew a little magic, since he was a soldier). He is described in the book as having dark hair, but he has light purple hair in-game, which is actually a Death Knight hair for male Night Elves. The narrator in the books makes it sound as if the Highborne tolerate him, and feel he is somewhat lower-class than them, but they don't outwardly disrespect him due to his position. He doesn't pay much attention to anything else other than Azshara. He was simply put into the caste because he eventually became Azshara's personal guard - much like Vashj, who seems to have also been a Highborne due to her career. However, it's the impression I got from the wording in the books, I'll admit.

    There are several Highborne with other colors of hair, but you're ignoring something here. No one is actually saying Highborne are born with silver hair and light skin. People agree with you, here. It's not a genetic trait we're talking about, but instead a cultural one. In Cataclysm and MoP Highborne have usually been depicted with light purple/bluish skin tones and white hair, simply to identify them as Highborne.

    Most pre-Cata Highborne had various hair colors, but mostly blue, teal, and white - and yes, Varo'then had purple hair in-game in Cata. Since Azshara had silver hair, and Vashj had dyed her hair silver as well (it was mentioned in the WotA trilogy), as two of the most prominent and famous Highborne, people identify those traits with that caste of people. Blizzard uses this artistically to identify many Highborne now. Lore-wise, it would make sense if it was a cultural fashion or practice, since the only remaining true Highborne were inside Eldre'thalas - one of Azshara's personal cities meant for arcanists. The Shen'dralar were once her servants, and like all other Highborne, they would do their best to please the queen in any way - including personal appearance. Even Azshara's other handmaidens in the Well of Eternity instance had silver hair, with a few other Highborne NPCs in there. Varo'then didn't seem to care what anyone thought, but he pleased Azshara by doing everything for her. Dath'Remar was meant to look unique so he would stand out in the book compared to other Highborne, as he was a fairly significant character in the last book. As mentioned, Blizzard just chooses to use Azshara's hair color now to easily identify a Highborne as opposed to a common Night Elf. Not genetic, cultural.

    As far as other appearances, arcane energy in high amounts will affect the way a mortal looks. Keristrasza was once a dark red, but after being affected with pure arcane energy through runes because of Malygos, she turned a light reddish-pink. Jaina's hair and eyes got lighter because of the pure arcane energy from the mana bomb on Theramore - it was mentioned that was the cause in Tides of War (since she was "radiating with arcane energy"). When Blood Elves couldn't control their magical addiction after the destruction of the Sunwell, they began to take in too much magical energy (or in some cases, not enough), and they would become Wretched - very pale, thin husks of a Blood Elf. However, it affects different races differently. When the blue dragons and drakes were given runes to enhance their power they turned a darker blue, for instance.

    The Highborne in Eldre'thalas didn't have as much of a means to change their appearance as drastically like Jaina or Keristrasza - they simply didn't have the high concentrations of arcane energy at once like either of those ladies. It's not impossible that during the 10,000 year span that Highborne got slightly more pale (as even Brann noted that) in their refuge in Eldre'thalas, using the arcane and fel energies of a demon to satisfy their arcane needs. It would make sense that Brann would word it as "pastier, maybe" because they got ever so slightly lighter that it doesn't look too different from a common Night Elf. However, most fans of lore know they are physically born the same as Night Elves, and they have no other special traits being born into the caste (Brann notes they have little differences to Night Elves, as well).

    Blizzard simply uses white hair, pale skin, and amber eyes to show that they're different than the common Night Elves in most cases, now. They changed the way Zandalari were portrayed in MoP, as well, completely changing the way they looked from before - it's similar to Highborne now, mostly being depicted a certain way, but not entirely. However, it's canon that Highborne are simply a caste of Night Elves, and not a different race. They may think they are in the story, but it's been stated many times that they are just regular ol' Night Elves that consider themselves special, and use magic.

    tldr - Yeah, we know they aren't born with those traits, but Blizzard depicts them that way to show their caste and culture, and how it differs from other common Night Elves.
    Last edited by Destinas; 2014-05-16 at 09:43 AM.
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  19. #2539
    Quote Originally Posted by Destinas
    There are several Highborne with other colors of hair, but you're ignoring something here. No one is actually saying Highborne are born with silver hair and light skin. People agree with you, here. It's not a genetic trait we're talking about, but instead a cultural one.
    Though I will stand on the side defending theory about Highbornes looking (by birth) just like other NElves, this concrete argument seems to make sense and I could believe in that. This is possible that the Highbornes dyes their hair - or maybe their hair just turn white because of stress induced by overdose of magic. Also Jaina's hair turned white because of stress - this is possible and this theme is quite popular, when for example young man who lost his wife and little children, bla, bla, goes completely white haired like old man. So, the hypothesies are:

    1. Highbornes are born with pale (gray-blue) skin and white hair what distuingish their from other Night Elves.
    2. Highbornes are born looking just like other representatives of Night Elven species, but overdose of magic dues whitening of hair and some 'arcane' marks on skin, also maybe blue/cyan eyes.
    3. Highbornes are born looking just like other NElves, but they dye their hair and paint face with silvery make-up to emphasize their status and show that they are 'moonkissed'.
    4. Highbornes are born just like other NElves and the only difference is another dressing style and make-up. Many of Night Elves are born with white or silvery hair (just like many High Elves, for example Vereesa Windrunner) because white, just like blue, teal or dark blue is very popular haircolor in their species. So, many Highbornes has white hair because just many Night Elves has white hair by their genetics.
    5. Like 4, but ingame Highbornes have white hair to show us "look, children, this is the Highborne, if you don't see his magic staff, blue robe and white hair, we add also <<The Highborne>> under his name for your sure".

    I also want to know what exactly means "pasty". I am not an english speaker, so google translate tells me that this mean something like "unhealthy looking", "sallow", "sickly" or even "morbid". It doesn't must to mean "pale". It can be also "skinny", "with bags under eyes", "without big muscles", even "hunched", etc., etc. What this description reminds you? Because for me - the Wretched Blood Elves. Ingame they look like mutants, but on arts:



    They look just "pasty". Maybe the Highbornes aren't look as drastically "pasty" like Wretched, but other Night Elves can see them in that way.

    I wonder also about lacking of 'crystal elves' ingame. They are crystal satyrs and crystal dryads, the mutants, who overdosed the pure arcane energy - and lived. Maybe they lived because they are stronger? Satyrs are creatures overfed by fel, and dryads are something like magical creatures, immortal demigods. Elves could not live such energy.
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  20. #2540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane-Villain View Post
    Matter of taste. Personally I prefer Night Elven beauty, they look more mature. Blood Elves (males and females) looks for me like something a'la teenage Night Elves, what can have sense because of their shorter lives.
    I see it as more of a evolution race an improved elf.


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