1. #2801
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Where does this whole "Dragonworgen" thing come from and in what reality does it make sense?

    I don't get it.
    http://wowpedia.org/Blackhowl

    It's basically a large group of Gilean's (Worgen included) that had their blood infused with Creed's Black Dragon blood.

    We know from the existence of Dragonmen, Drakonid and Dragonspawn, Dragon Blood can have transformative properties on those who are affected by it, especially Humans for some reason.

    It is very much a plausible theory that the Blackhowl would be transformed into a hybrid Worgen/Black Dragon. It would be a cool afterthought anyways.
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  2. #2802
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Personally, my own justification for whether or not a subrace will work as a subrace or not comes down to whether or not it can share the original models skeleton and animations. Taunka would probably be the most challenging, because it would require an all new facial animation rig which might not be worth the effort for just 1 subrace. The Yaungol, while historically not Horde like the Taunka are, would probably be able to get away with the new Tauren facial rig.

    But I don't think a subrace needing more work than a retexture is a reason to disqualify it as a subrace, if Blizzard is to implement subraces in the future, I would rather them go the extra mile to make them look special instead of just a cheap reskin.

    Anyways, here is my list of potential subraces for every race. Some of them don't make tons of lore sense to be affiliated with the Horde/Alliance, some of them are only RPG canon, but list is list.

    Human
    - Azotha: Ugly children of the Vrykul, Barbarian and Vrykul features. (RPG canon only)
    - Half Elves: Children of Humans and High Elves, refugees from Theramore.
    Dwarf
    - Dark Iron: From Blackrock Mountain, dark skinned with fiery eyes.
    - Wildhammer: Traditional tattoos and darker skin.
    Gnome
    - Leper: Irradiated Gnomes with restored sanity.
    - Mecha: Clockwork ancestors of the Gnomes.
    Night Elf
    - Illidari: Disciples of Illidan Stormrage, runic tattoos and burning green eyes.
    - Highborne: The ancient Night Elf upper class, radiant skin, golden eyes and pastel hair colors.
    - Cenarion: Dryad and Keeper of the Grove features.
    Draenei
    - Man'ari: Twisted, demonic servants of the Legion. (Requires lore bending to make some of them friendly, Argus rebels?)
    - Broken: Draenei twisted by dark magics. (Might not work with Draenei model)
    Worgen
    - Bloodmoon: Northrend Worgen, polar wolf features.
    - Blackhowl: Worgen infused with the Blood of a black Dragon. Scales and Drakonid features.
    - Druid of the Pack: Night Elf Human Form
    Orc
    - Mag'har: Uncorrupted brown orcs, natives of Draenor.
    - Blackrock: Grey skinned orcs of the mountain.
    - Unhunched: Orcs discovered chiropracty.
    Troll
    - Forest: Mossy skin, warpaints
    - Ice: Cold, pale skin, white hair
    - Sandfury: Coarse, cracked pale skin, black tusks.
    Tauren
    - Grimtotem: Black fur and warpaints.
    - Taunka: Cousins of the Tauren from Northrend. (Would require head remodel)
    - Yaungol: Cousins of the Tauren from Pandaria. (Same as Taunka, need reason for joining Horde)
    Forsaken
    - Elf: Undead High Elves, pointed ears and elven hair styles.
    - Skeleton: Completely fleshless undead (Requires remodel)
    - Unhunched: Human posture/Human animations
    Blood Elf
    - Darkfallen: Last remaining members of the San'layn, welcomed into the Forsaken by Sylvanas (needs more lore.)
    - High Elf: Feeding from the renewed Sunwell has restored blue eyes and healthier skin.
    - Felblood: Feeding from Fel magics for too long caused some Elves to grow horns, unnatural skin colors and black wings.
    Goblin
    - Gilgoblin: Aquatic goblins, created by Hobart Grapplehammer.
    - Tinker: Due to numerous engineering accidents, certain body parts replaced with volatile goblin technology.
    I think the larger issue is Blizzard wants playable races to have a large identity and solid sense of impact on the world. A lot of these are just obscure and seem contrived for the sake of divirsity and satisfying a very tiny amount of the community. I love as many options as I can get, but Blizzard's approach to streamlining and larger than life personality make many of these feel generic and not meaningful as a choice.

    Blizzard tends to limit customization to make choices seem more important, if that makes sense, to promote a more diverse but very iconic population of players surrounding you. Rather than body types, we have races encouraging us to go with the anatomical aesthetic we would prefer. This is annoying to a lot of people who want to customize every detail they can and represent every shade of the lore they know.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-08-30 at 01:49 AM.
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  3. #2803
    I guess this is pretty off-topic when it comes to sub-race stuff, but I think they could get away with doing Zandalari and Broken fairly, if they wanted. Zandalari use mostly night elf animations, and the player versions would continue using Night Elf male animations, but the updated model version. Same for Broken and the Tauren skeleton.
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Well it's good to see the keyboard activists in full effect. Doing the laziest, most asinine thing they could think of off the top of their heads and calling it justice while making no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by C9H20
    Blizzard effectively wants to have its cake and eat it too by pretending to have this groundbreaking war in a faction capital while at the same time being completely unwilling to portray logical consequences of such an event.

  4. #2804
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I guess this is pretty off-topic when it comes to sub-race stuff, but I think they could get away with doing Zandalari and Broken fairly, if they wanted. Zandalari use mostly night elf animations, and the player versions would continue using Night Elf male animations, but the updated model version. Same for Broken and the Tauren skeleton.
    Visually yes, but I'm not keen on the idea of playable Zandalari. It would rather feel like their entire MoP story-arc was wasted development if there were suddenly enough deserters around to form a viable subrace.



  5. #2805
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Visually yes, but I'm not keen on the idea of playable Zandalari. It would rather feel like their entire MoP story-arc was wasted development if there were suddenly enough deserters around to form a viable subrace.

    If it's about numbers, then just about every race we play is low on numbers. It seems to have almost become a trend. Gnomes, Darkspear, Goblins, etc.



    Plus, it would be cool to see "Warchief Vol'jin" bring together members of several troll tribes and form their own group. He's the warchief, he's a very powerful troll now. It's possibly that some of the trolls will flock to that, as trolls are also a lot about strength and power.
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Well it's good to see the keyboard activists in full effect. Doing the laziest, most asinine thing they could think of off the top of their heads and calling it justice while making no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by C9H20
    Blizzard effectively wants to have its cake and eat it too by pretending to have this groundbreaking war in a faction capital while at the same time being completely unwilling to portray logical consequences of such an event.

  6. #2806
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Plus, it would be cool to see "Warchief Vol'jin" bring together members of several troll tribes and form their own group. He's the warchief, he's a very powerful troll now. It's possibly that some of the trolls will flock to that, as trolls are also a lot about strength and power.
    Meh, I still really dislike the idea. I can see one or two coming over, but any numbers actually warranting the introduction of a Zandalari subrace?

    Trolls may be about strength, but there's also the fact that Zandalari are not remotely flexible. If they suddenly had Zul appear with his Golden Fleet and offer to serve Vol'jin that would be beyond contrived.

    Forest trolls I can see. We have the Revantusk. Even the Farakki I'm not beyond believing might want to join. But Zandalari? I enjoyed their portrayal during Mists, I don't want that destroyed just because people want upright trolls. :/



  7. #2807
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Meh, I still really dislike the idea. I can see one or two coming over, but any numbers actually warranting the introduction of a Zandalari subrace?

    Trolls may be about strength, but there's also the fact that Zandalari are not remotely flexible. If they suddenly had Zul appear with his Golden Fleet and offer to serve Vol'jin that would be beyond contrived.

    Forest trolls I can see. We have the Revantusk. Even the Farakki I'm not beyond believing might want to join. But Zandalari? I enjoyed their portrayal during Mists, I don't want that destroyed just because people want upright trolls. :/

    Hmh, you are not incorrect. Though I do think there are more Zandalari left than there are Darkspear, when it comes to numbers.



    And no, no no no. I'm not saying any major, important group of Zandalari should ever join. Just a group of defectors who saw what the Horde managed to do and likened the Horde (now lead by Vol'jin) to Vol'jin's tribe, which it sorta now is. They saw that as a proof of strength, or they saw their future to be potentially more bright. Again, doesn't have to be a huge number. Zandalari could still be the "big bad" troll empire. But I'm just saying that a small group of Zandalari could possibly want to join. Remember, people have varying views on things. Vol'jin was part of the event where troll leaders met up (4.1 trailer), but he decided, of his own will, that the Horde was more important to him. They're not a hive-mind. There are always those that defect. I'm not saying it has to happen, but it logically can, without wrecking lore, people want it, because they're popular, so it can happen.


    And I'm saying that it would also make broken more possible, because one of the reasons against broken is that they have a tauren skeleton. If zandalari trolls mainly have night elf skeletons, they could make both of them fairly happen, and this without going through the entire process of creating a new player model. (with new skeletons, etc.)
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Well it's good to see the keyboard activists in full effect. Doing the laziest, most asinine thing they could think of off the top of their heads and calling it justice while making no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by C9H20
    Blizzard effectively wants to have its cake and eat it too by pretending to have this groundbreaking war in a faction capital while at the same time being completely unwilling to portray logical consequences of such an event.

  8. #2808
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    And no, no no no. I'm not saying any major, important group of Zandalari should ever join.
    Actually that made me think for a moment outside the box of my hatred for playable Zandalari, though it may just be that I'm still drowsy from waking up from a cat-nap (DON'T JUDGE ME I DO WHAT I WANT >:|).

    BUT! There is one major group that might be interested in joining after all... while keeping the Zandalari Empire as the enemy. I'm of course talking about Rastakhan and his loyal subjects who stayed on Zandalar when it began to sink. I can see Vol'jin setting aside his prejudices and saving Rastakhan, forging a tenuous alliance.

    I wouldn't mind that idea honestly. I'd still be a bit annoyed by the inevitable tide of upright trolls everywhere but eh. Win some, lose some I guess?



  9. #2809
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Actually that made me think for a moment outside the box of my hatred for playable Zandalari, though it may just be that I'm still drowsy from waking up from a cat-nap (DON'T JUDGE ME I DO WHAT I WANT >:|).

    Well, everyone has a certain like or dislike for races or sub-races. For one, I want playable Nerubians, Mantid, Arakkoa, Ogres, and I'd loathe High Elves becoming a (brand new) playable race. Now I know that the first two will probably never happen, but I would be happy if they did.


    That said, I'd be okay with high elves as sub-race. Just that I dunno what the Horde would get. What I mean is that everyone likes certain things or not. You're free to do so. Though I'm, of course, trying to partially change your mind. xP

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    BUT! There is one major group that might be interested in joining after all... while keeping the Zandalari Empire as the enemy. I'm of course talking about Rastakhan and his loyal subjects who stayed on Zandalar when it began to sink. I can see Vol'jin setting aside his prejudices and saving Rastakhan, forging a tenuous alliance.

    I wouldn't mind that idea honestly. I'd still be a bit annoyed by the inevitable tide of upright trolls everywhere but eh. Win some, lose some I guess?

    Well, I thought it'd be a smaller group, but yes, that would be an idea. As for the inevitable tide? Well, it depends. There are those who really like it, who will keep playing them, and will probably not bother you because they genuinely like it, and it shows. And there be those that will rush to play them as they are a new flavour. That will be the tide, and they will go away eventually, leaving only the true fans behind to play them.
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Well it's good to see the keyboard activists in full effect. Doing the laziest, most asinine thing they could think of off the top of their heads and calling it justice while making no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by C9H20
    Blizzard effectively wants to have its cake and eat it too by pretending to have this groundbreaking war in a faction capital while at the same time being completely unwilling to portray logical consequences of such an event.

  10. #2810
    There is not much place for anything outside of recolors for obvious and not so obvious reasons.

    I'd be happy with those recolors, but there are still some issues that would require attention. It's mostly in quest and zones. It'd quite suck to start WHD or DID in current dwarven start zone - you'd just feel out of place. Something that might not bug everyone, but when people start with the game, that's the first thing they get, and it should better be good.

  11. #2811
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFK-Champion View Post
    There is not much place for anything outside of recolors for obvious and not so obvious reasons.

    I'd be happy with those recolors, but there are still some issues that would require attention. It's mostly in quest and zones. It'd quite suck to start WHD or DID in current dwarven start zone - you'd just feel out of place. Something that might not bug everyone, but when people start with the game, that's the first thing they get, and it should better be good.
    It was mentioned at some point that if they did subraces, they'd likely get their own short introductory questlines in order to make their addition make sense.



  12. #2812
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokann View Post
    Meh, I still really dislike the idea. I can see one or two coming over, but any numbers actually warranting the introduction of a Zandalari subrace?

    Trolls may be about strength, but there's also the fact that Zandalari are not remotely flexible. If they suddenly had Zul appear with his Golden Fleet and offer to serve Vol'jin that would be beyond contrived.

    Forest trolls I can see. We have the Revantusk. Even the Farakki I'm not beyond believing might want to join. But Zandalari? I enjoyed their portrayal during Mists, I don't want that destroyed just because people want upright trolls. :/
    well prophet Zul is only getting the zandalari and other troll tribes slaughtered. hell even the zandalari LoA changed sides.
    its getting to the point where the trolls should realize they need to join Vol'jin or else they are all going to die.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Zanjin/simple horde main
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post25856782
    Coming soon Expansion ideas: Age of N'zoth, Assault on Agrus.

  13. #2813
    The Patient Kelthos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Personally, my own justification for whether or not a subrace will work as a subrace or not comes down to whether or not it can share the original models skeleton and animations. Taunka would probably be the most challenging, because it would require an all new facial animation rig which might not be worth the effort for just 1 subrace. The Yaungol, while historically not Horde like the Taunka are, would probably be able to get away with the new Tauren facial rig.

    But I don't think a subrace needing more work than a retexture is a reason to disqualify it as a subrace, if Blizzard is to implement subraces in the future, I would rather them go the extra mile to make them look special instead of just a cheap reskin.

    Anyways, here is my list of potential subraces for every race. Some of them don't make tons of lore sense to be affiliated with the Horde/Alliance, some of them are only RPG canon, but list is list.

    Human
    - Azotha: Ugly children of the Vrykul, Barbarian and Vrykul features. (RPG canon only)
    - Half Elves: Children of Humans and High Elves, refugees from Theramore.
    Dwarf
    - Dark Iron: From Blackrock Mountain, dark skinned with fiery eyes.
    - Wildhammer: Traditional tattoos and darker skin.
    Gnome
    - Leper: Irradiated Gnomes with restored sanity.
    - Mecha: Clockwork ancestors of the Gnomes.
    Night Elf
    - Illidari: Disciples of Illidan Stormrage, runic tattoos and burning green eyes.
    - Highborne: The ancient Night Elf upper class, radiant skin, golden eyes and pastel hair colors.
    - Cenarion: Dryad and Keeper of the Grove features.
    Draenei
    - Man'ari: Twisted, demonic servants of the Legion. (Requires lore bending to make some of them friendly, Argus rebels?)
    - Broken: Draenei twisted by dark magics. (Might not work with Draenei model)
    Worgen
    - Bloodmoon: Northrend Worgen, polar wolf features.
    - Blackhowl: Worgen infused with the Blood of a black Dragon. Scales and Drakonid features.
    - Druid of the Pack: Night Elf Human Form
    Orc
    - Mag'har: Uncorrupted brown orcs, natives of Draenor.
    - Blackrock: Grey skinned orcs of the mountain.
    - Unhunched: Orcs discovered chiropracty.
    Troll
    - Forest: Mossy skin, warpaints
    - Ice: Cold, pale skin, white hair
    - Sandfury: Coarse, cracked pale skin, black tusks.
    Tauren
    - Grimtotem: Black fur and warpaints.
    - Taunka: Cousins of the Tauren from Northrend. (Would require head remodel)
    - Yaungol: Cousins of the Tauren from Pandaria. (Same as Taunka, need reason for joining Horde)
    Forsaken
    - Elf: Undead High Elves, pointed ears and elven hair styles.
    - Skeleton: Completely fleshless undead (Requires remodel)
    - Unhunched: Human posture/Human animations
    Blood Elf
    - Darkfallen: Last remaining members of the San'layn, welcomed into the Forsaken by Sylvanas (needs more lore.)
    - High Elf: Feeding from the renewed Sunwell has restored blue eyes and healthier skin.
    - Felblood: Feeding from Fel magics for too long caused some Elves to grow horns, unnatural skin colors and black wings.
    Goblin
    - Gilgoblin: Aquatic goblins, created by Hobart Grapplehammer.
    - Tinker: Due to numerous engineering accidents, certain body parts replaced with volatile goblin technology.
    I... don't really like a vast majority of these. They feel like putting something in to be putting something in and I don't want that. I'd rather have sub races that make sense lorewise. A lot of those groups (Gilgoblin, Darkfallen, Illidari) exist in such small numbers that they don't really make any noticeable impact on the world whatsoever.

    Others like the Azotha and Blackhowl worgen don't really have any lore basis whatsoever. The rpg books have been confirmed to be non-canon several times over now.

    And Highborne are not a sub race. They are a political faction of Kaldorei that generally have white hair and blue skin due to typically breeding with one another.

  14. #2814
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelthos View Post
    I... don't really like a vast majority of these. They feel like putting something in to be putting something in and I don't want that. I'd rather have sub races that make sense lorewise. A lot of those groups (Gilgoblin, Darkfallen, Illidari) exist in such small numbers that they don't really make any noticeable impact on the world whatsoever.

    Others like the Azotha and Blackhowl worgen don't really have any lore basis whatsoever. The rpg books have been confirmed to be non-canon several times over now.

    And Highborne are not a sub race. They are a political faction of Kaldorei that generally have white hair and blue skin due to typically breeding with one another.

    Just because the RPG was across-the-board made non-canon (which they did for ease; they didn't mean to make it all non-canon, but they couldn't do it selectively quickly) doesn't mean that it doesn't or immediately won't ever really exist. It doesn't exclude them from existing. It just means that we can't 100% assume they do.
    Quote Originally Posted by leaks View Post
    Well it's good to see the keyboard activists in full effect. Doing the laziest, most asinine thing they could think of off the top of their heads and calling it justice while making no difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by C9H20
    Blizzard effectively wants to have its cake and eat it too by pretending to have this groundbreaking war in a faction capital while at the same time being completely unwilling to portray logical consequences of such an event.

  15. #2815
    Quote Originally Posted by AFK-Champion View Post
    There is not much place for anything outside of recolors for obvious and not so obvious reasons.

    I'd be happy with those recolors, but there are still some issues that would require attention. It's mostly in quest and zones. It'd quite suck to start WHD or DID in current dwarven start zone - you'd just feel out of place. Something that might not bug everyone, but when people start with the game, that's the first thing they get, and it should better be good.
    Why would you feel out of place? They added Dark Iron and Wildhammer NPCs, warlock and shaman trainers in every area of the Dwarf starting zone. Both to reflect the lore of Cataclysm and because they originally planned to put Wildhammer Tattoos and Dark Iron skins into the game for Cataclysm, which they did in beta for about a week sort of.

    The lore is there, it's even reflected in quest text. Look at this again, and make sure you're not affirming a notion you conceived before really thinking about it. It's possible you may change your mind.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Just because the RPG was across-the-board made non-canon (which they did for ease; they didn't mean to make it all non-canon, but they couldn't do it selectively quickly) doesn't mean that it doesn't or immediately won't ever really exist. It doesn't exclude them from existing. It just means that we can't 100% assume they do.
    It's frankly amazing how much of the RPG is still used to this day for lore, as of Cata. Especially the Elemental pantheon and their zones as well as the Ancients and Titans. It wasn't until MOP things got way more novel. And now they are in territory the RPG never covered really.

    It's obvious to anyone who isn't a "stickler" over licensed canon the RPG is still overflowing with a rough idea of the future content we will see int his game, because it's in large part a snapshot of Metzen's ambitions for the stories. The Titan pantheon information, the Burning Legion details, any number of things.

    It was never thrown out, indeed. Basically it's just not a bible anymore, and any contradictions are to be ignored in favor of what is live in game.

    Why people have so much trouble with this seems to be mired in a desire for certainty and official background knowledge other people aren't aware of or something I submit to the jury.
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  16. #2816
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    well prophet Zul is only getting the zandalari and other troll tribes slaughtered. hell even the zandalari LoA changed sides.
    its getting to the point where the trolls should realize they need to join Vol'jin or else they are all going to die.
    100 % agree.

    A major storyline in a South Seas Expansion would be fantastic, with Vol'jin becoming the lord over most of the troll tribes. Would be great to turn the focus a bit away from the orcs.

    I imagine him standing on the top of Zuldazar(Zandalar's capital) over the body of late King Rastakhan(Lord of the Zandalari and thus in name all trolls) proclaiming a new area for trolls.

  17. #2817
    Brewmaster Alanar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwing View Post
    100 % agree.

    A major storyline in a South Seas Expansion would be fantastic, with Vol'jin becoming the lord over most of the troll tribes. Would be great to turn the focus a bit away from the orcs.

    I imagine him standing on the top of Zuldazar(Zandalar's capital) over the body of late King Rastakhan(Lord of the Zandalari and thus in name all trolls) proclaiming a new area for trolls.
    If any, Rastakahn doesn't seem like a evil roll, would be cool to see him stand in the throne room as well being a sort of right hand side


  18. #2818
    Some "sub" races are just the same race, but with a different culture. Wildhammer dwarves are just different cultured dwarves.

  19. #2819
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrayFox View Post
    Some "sub" races are just the same race, but with a different culture. Wildhammer dwarves are just different cultured dwarves.
    Well they're the same species, yes, but a different race altogether. So are dark iron dwarves. "Subrace" itself is sort of a misnomer since the "Races" of Azeroth are more like distinct species.
    Some people really like flavor. Occasionally subsisting on nutrient paste just doesn't feel the same as eating a steak. I get that flavor isn't for everyone, but I doubt removing all cosmetic indicators from the game would be appealing either. Nobody want to log in, queue to fight modestly sized blue checked box boss #7, initiate combat using an attack sequence of abilities 1-7 with a 13 beat repeat coda intermittently, and collect item level 630 slot 7 gear either.

  20. #2820
    Quote Originally Posted by StrayFox View Post
    Some "sub" races are just the same race, but with a different culture. Wildhammer dwarves are just different cultured dwarves.
    I think you have something confused here. Subraces isn't a literal thing. It's a blanket term the community has adopted for lack of a better term to cover iconic visual ethnic and cultural customization options for lore fans.

    It all started with Wildhammer Dwarves and Dark Irons, then Mag'har.

    Being a "race" or not has ZERO to do with this issue.
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