1. #381
    Yes! Wouldn't the Blood Elves look freakin' cool if they looked more like that San'layn Model with our edits?


    And ah, the Draenei debacle,...Oh, I was there playing WOW at the time. I remember the birth of "lolore" with Metzen's retcon. I don't think it changes the visual inspiration and concept for what the player Draenei are, but I suppose it's worth addressing.

    Truthfully the aspect of the retcon was blown way out proportion in my opinion, it doesn't matter if Sargeras corrupted the Draenei or if the Legion's inevitable victory drove him to corrupting the Eredar,... the point is, a faction of Eredar ended up being more than 2 dimensional black and white stereotypical bad guy demons, and they created an interesting story within the realms of the lore to explain it, connecting the Draenei and the Eredar in a way nobody ever saw coming that still makes an interesting kind of sense and falls directly inline with a number of common tropes and themes in myth and legend while being a prett original twist on what a demon is usually designed to look like.

    Looking at mythology, the fallen deformed stunted offspring of the accursed, the divine holy and pure origin species, the twisted fallen evil monsters who embraced that power. We see it in something like the Dark Crystal with the Mystics and the Skeksis, or in Christian mythology itself with angels, fallen angels, and demons.

    The retcon was unfortunate, but meh, it could have easily been explained without the retcon and still made sense. Embellishing isn't retcon, otherwise 95% of this game's lore is all bullshit that wasn't in the minds of the developers during Warcraft 1.

    People need to stop acting like we're trying to be tricked into thinking Blizzard had everything planned all along, because uh,... it's real, and all this really happened
    Truthfully the retcons barely exist that people call retcons, most of the accusations seem to be from people who don't like the way certain embellishments have tweaked the precedent regarding tone and other aesthetics, but they aren't retcons, they're embellishments after the fact. Just because you can tell or suspect it was after the fact doesn't mean it's alters any established precedent. The Draenei were one of the few actual retcons, but they didn't even require it, it was a slip of the mind. Just a pet peeve of mine I take any chance to comment on Don't mind me.

    BEARDS AND ANIMATIONS! I'll drink to that.

    I wish my Pandaren brewmaster had a permanent keg on his back instead of being forced to only use the Brewfest item. But that's a tale for another thread

    Can't wait to see what you do with the new previews Shoc, almost as much as I can't wait for the previews them self.
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  2. #382
    I don't think San'layn fit in as BE sub race at all except for the fact that they used to be BE.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post

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    I think the key to the design of the Draenei is a very awesome idea. They wanted to take an archetypal demon (Pretty much based on pagan imagery of Pan and mutated with Christian mythology hybridized with animal features, red skin, pitchfork, pointed tail, hooves), and give a demon divine and angelic features. As if a demon were a holy being. Blending Hindu mysticism with demonic iconography, they took serene and divine blue skin over demonic red, gave them glowing runes and halo like visual themes, and it was a really cool concept in my opinion I'd never seen anywhere before.

    A very cool twist on demons. It's a shame all that get's overlooked when the "spacegoat" meme get's shoved in your face the moment you enter this community.

    As if Diablo is just a Hell Goat-lizard thing.

    I can't wait to see Draenei with more detail in their horns and facial growths.
    I just had to reply to your post... You are dead right on that one.

    Its is a bit creepy at times as well, especially if you look at things like the map of shattrath (which used to be a dreanei city) as well as the structure of Naaru (The benefactors of the Draenei) - they look like a cross but of made of light (the word Naaru is similar to the word 'Naar' which means fire in Arabic.) ...but I digress a bit.

    The animal features you mention are based on at least two: Goat like features (basic imagery of Pan) and Octopus like 'tentacles' as facial features (which are probably inspired from Cthulhu, seeing how many Lovecraftian references are already used in WoW imagery/storytelling.

    That said , now I am curious to know abou the cause of corruption that leads them to become broken, and would also like to see some concepts of Mana'ari eredar as well as 'broken' red eredar (if there could be such a thing.

  4. #384
    Herald of the Titans Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    I don't think San'layn fit in as BE sub race at all except for the fact that they used to be BE.
    They still identify as blood elves and employ blood elven symbology. Furthermore, there are already BE DKs. So why would that be the case?
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2013-12-26 at 11:18 AM.

  5. #385
    Gilgoblin!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttak82 View Post
    I just had to reply to your post... You are dead right on that one.

    Its is a bit creepy at times as well, especially if you look at things like the map of shattrath (which used to be a dreanei city) as well as the structure of Naaru (The benefactors of the Draenei) - they look like a cross but of made of light (the word Naaru is similar to the word 'Naar' which means fire in Arabic.) ...but I digress a bit.

    The animal features you mention are based on at least two: Goat like features (basic imagery of Pan) and Octopus like 'tentacles' as facial features (which are probably inspired from Cthulhu, seeing how many Lovecraftian references are already used in WoW imagery/storytelling.

    That said , now I am curious to know abou the cause of corruption that leads them to become broken, and would also like to see some concepts of Mana'ari eredar as well as 'broken' red eredar (if there could be such a thing.
    I think Naaru is actually derived from the word An-nur, which means 'the light' in Arabic.

  6. #386
    Herald of the Titans Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    And no, not because they are lazy or giving excuses, because they are right not to pull the rug out from people who like the model they've had for 6+ years, though giving us options makes a lot of room there, but there truly are only so many resources to go around with a game with annual and monthly deadlines on projects.
    Let us just say I am skeptical of them being as resource constrained as they claim they are, particularly when this is rarely ever put into context of any sort. It's also not mutually exclusive with the consideration you gave, which is certainly a big part of it. Equally, other MMOs seem perfectly capable of pulling off high quality visuals with much fewer resources than Blizzard.

    I think part of the problem is their mentality exhibited when they stated that the alternative to updating Quel'thalas (and Azuremyst Isle) is a new dungeon. Well, is one less hit-the-running-pinatas faceroll fiesta going to be that huge a loss?

    This is their one chance to get the models right. They needn't do them all at once, and I would be content if they just improved the BE posture, fixed the animations a little, gave the PC better voices, like those of the NPCs, and improved the muscle tone/edginess. A model like that used by the San'layn would be very good, but they would have to run it in parallel with modifications to the existing model, which is the sense in which they'd probably lack the time to pull this through. Alternatively, they could achieve a subtle blend between the existing models and the San'layn, by improving the posture, animations and facial feature options. Some are already pretty edgy,angular and square-jawed, it's just that they fall short of the concept art. You wouldn't even need the San'layn as a subrace then, although it'd still be fun to have.

    Blood elves aren't the only race that would benefit from a re-think with respect to their models; NE and draenei would also benefit immensely from it, particularly the males of each race.

    On topic, I am quite excited about the subraces, and it'll be interesting to see if they make use of existing models in the game, e.g. the San'layn or Broken, to deliver some of these, if they do choose to introduce them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ttak82 View Post

    That said , now I am curious to know abou the cause of corruption that leads them to become broken, and would also like to see some concepts of Mana'ari eredar as well as 'broken' red eredar (if there could be such a thing.
    The Broken were passive recipients of the fel and corruption used by the Legion (and the orcs who served it) when it invaded Draenor. You can read it all here. For some reason, fel prevents them from using the Light, which would imply that absent the Naaru they drained or the reformed Sunwell, the BE would not be able to draw upon it, either. I also suspect it is why the green orcs don't have any Light-using classes. Whereas the Eredar (and BE and Satyr) are empowered by fel, the Broken regressed due to its effects. There's not much concept art of the Eredar sadly, just some of the TCG stuff.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2013-12-26 at 11:55 AM.

  7. #387
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    The San'layn allying with the Forsaken would make perfect sense and is well within the lore. They were the Blood Elves who joined Kael'thas' to Northrend and were raised into undeath by the Lich King, and now with both the Blood Queen and the Lich King dead, their free will is restored, and they are without leadership. Considering the fact that they are exactly the beings as Sylvanas at this point.

    It might be tougher to figure out a sub-race to work with the Draenei that aren't the Broken or demonic Eredar, considering both of them don't allow for Priests or Paladins. The only ones that seem possible would be a tribe of Draenor Draenei who look slightly different from the Draenei who escaped to Azeroth, but thats a long shot. Whatever, just add more horns and beards to make up for it and all is well
    Shrek is love, Shrek is life.

  8. #388
    Herald of the Titans Zathrendar's Avatar
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    It doesn't really matter if they make them a Forsaken or Blood Elf subrace, they're still undead blood elves, like BE DKs. You could make an argument to include them under either race but ultimately it matters little other than which slot it occupies. Perhaps it would make more sense to utilise the Wretched as a BE subrace, but there's little evidence that they are to reasoned with, and to be frank, if they are going to introduce a BE subrace, I'd rather it be Felbloods and San'layn.

    I would think the Broken would be a pretty obvious and good choice for a Draenei subrace. A corrupted subrace, as I stated previously, is also not out of the cards, as there's many examples of Draenei who e.g. side with the Scourge or Twilight Hammer, in terms of NPCs, but you could also allow for some Broken to indulge in dark magics. The only reason I mentioned a partially corrupted Draenei subrace as it would allow the utilisation of the Eredar skins without implying what you are playing is Eredar.

    As long as the BE/NE models are good, I will be happy, and if high elves come in as a NE subrace, I will be all the merrier.

  9. #389
    Not a Photoshop mock-up, but would be great to see Draenei horns looking more like this.



    What do you think?

  10. #390
    ank555 - I also wish them to look like this, they are very alien, so as draenei are. On the previous side I've made some mockup (primitive, I know, but this was something like a concept art or 'sketch' ) with draenei female made from eredar female (with some actual draenei female features, like white eyes and different mouth and eyebrows, to avoid diabolic look.

  11. #391
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    Maybe Draenei that were corrupted by the radiation from the vector coils that crash landed on Bloodmyst Isle? It could explain red skin without being demonically corrupted. As for the Night Elves, introducing the Dark Embrace, a faction of Demon Hunters in Darkshore and Felwood, back into the Alliance could give Demon Hunter tattoos and eyes to Night Elves.


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    @ Yig

    So here's something I did today



    Ugh the new model previews can't come quick enough
    Shrek is love, Shrek is life.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Let us just say I am skeptical of them being as resource constrained as they claim they are, particularly when this is rarely ever put into context of any sort. It's also not mutually exclusive with the consideration you gave, which is certainly a big part of it. Equally, other MMOs seem perfectly capable of pulling off high quality visuals with much fewer resources than Blizzard.

    I think part of the problem is their mentality exhibited when they stated that the alternative to updating Quel'thalas (and Azuremyst Isle) is a new dungeon. Well, is one less hit-the-running-pinatas faceroll fiesta going to be that huge a loss?
    What many call lazy and excuses is simply Blizzard being real fans and actual human beings who have different priorities than others in the player base, Blizzard also is known for getting caught up in their notorious proclivity for tunnel vision, namely they work on what lights a creative fire of passion under their ass, and they tend to put much of their effort there to the detriment of other places while producing quality work where it shines. But you can't throw money at this project because you can't just hire new artists as you need them, and it takes a very special artist with a very unique grasp of the visual language WOW's art team requires. It takes a competence with a very specific style, including an eye for minimalism, color theory, and personality and proportion, as well as being able to adopt to another person's style and adding your own complements to it. As well as taking direction and criticism well, and being able to along and work cohesively with chemistry within the team.

    It's a complicated issue, and once you train a person in something so specialized, you don't want to just let them go. They are investing in people here, and it's silly to think they just need to "hire more" to get things faster. And it's also silly to expect to get what you want when you want it when it's happening eventually anyways but it's not happening fast enough for you to be satisfied. If Blizzard feels like using their resources on something else, they have no fucking reason to lie or misrepresent what they're doing. That's where this skepticism crumbles apart on itself, it's just conspiracy thinking, making the big mean corporation into a commerical sell out enterprise just trying to trick you into giving them your money because they want profits.

    In reality, people who dedicated their entire fucking life to being an artist just want to make a living doing what they love to do. Profit is just a bonus. And the people they answer to don't own them or work them like slaves in the name of the all mighty dollar. They may move at a snail's pace, but it's because it's often a bad idea to release the first iteration of an idea or product. Things should stew and age and ferment. This is not absolute, context of course makes this into any number of different issues, but the jaded cynicism people show here, while flattering in it's indicative sign of passion people show for the property, is borderline insulting and often just absurd foot stamping. People get obsessed with their own pet issues and lose sight that these are actual human beings with feelings here, not some customer service rep you can dehumanize on the phone. And there is a spectrum between healthy skepticism and blatant paranoia, true. I'm not saying anyone here is specifically guilty of what, but you certainly kind find a healthy range of examples here in that spectrum that makes discussing this mostly nothing more than a massive celebration of mental masturbation. You defend Blizzard, you're just a fanboy blinded by marketing, you criticize Blizzard you're just a raving burn out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Maybe Draenei that were corrupted by the radiation from the vector coils that crash landed on Bloodmyst Isle? It could explain red skin without being demonically corrupted. As for the Night Elves, introducing the Dark Embrace, a faction of Demon Hunters in Darkshore and Felwood, back into the Alliance could give Demon Hunter tattoos and eyes to Night Elves.
    http://www.wowtcgloot.com/images/scr...aspect_gm1.jpg

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    @ Yig

    So here's something I did today



    Ugh the new model previews can't come quick enough
    Awesome, it makes me almost weep for what the Blood Elves could be,... before my chest hair and beard stiffens and curls in pure masculine power. Here's my own demon hunter I've been working on over the last 9 years with bits and pieces of this or that, I can't wait to see him with the new model updates. I've got a dozen outfits but this is my most favorite I've come up with, especially now with that belt using a fully 3d rendered model on the belt buckle.
    I hope to see the Dark Embrace finally get some more lore soon in the game since we learned about them in Cataclysm.






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    I just wish we had more glaives to work with. Especially this custom warglaive they made for nothing more than a Twilight Cultist NPC
    and the new Blackrock Caverns instance. Sooooo sad we can't use this.


    Here's some good reference for new demon hunter tattoos for custom work outside of what's in the game files.

    [/URL

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    And personally I'd be more than happy with this as the new Night Elf male player model, along with updated animations. Would be fun to see some edits made using this model as a base until we do get a glimpse of the new Night Elf. I'd love to see Malfurion done justice with a decent model using this as a base.



    Just imagine if we got to look this bad ass with this much class identity in the future. Truly an epic archdruid here.

    Warcraft3 era Furion


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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    .

    This reminds me of something else I was just fucking around with, not the greatest in quality but I just wanted to see how it would look roughly.
    I love the dour facial expression and the sculpted facial features of the Heroes of the Storm model.



    - - - Updated - - -

    In fact I've been thinking about using the Heroes of the Storm models for some edits on the original humans, but I'm not sure how yet. I love how they look, in some ways even being miniature RTS models they are superior to WOW's player models, but in other ways they clearly are not with their somewhat stunted anatomy. Still, I love looking at them. Making all of my edits appear in one post, I am feeling like I'm oversaturating this page with images, so I'll stop for now. Sorry to all you people still
    using 56k. I was stuck with dial up until 2006, I feel your pain. "_



    Last edited by Yig; 2013-12-27 at 05:54 AM.
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  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
    Gilgoblin!

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    I think Naaru is actually derived from the word An-nur, which means 'the light' in Arabic.
    That is also a possibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post



    The Broken were passive recipients of the fel and corruption used by the Legion (and the orcs who served it) when it invaded Draenor. You can read it all here. For some reason, fel prevents them from using the Light, which would imply that absent the Naaru they drained or the reformed Sunwell, the BE would not be able to draw upon it, either. I also suspect it is why the green orcs don't have any Light-using classes. Whereas the Eredar (and BE and Satyr) are empowered by fel, the Broken regressed due to its effects. There's not much concept art of the Eredar sadly, just some of the TCG stuff.
    Aah ok. it will be interesting to see what happens to red eredar when exposed to the light. (Do they simply turn blue/)

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    As a Request: I'd like to see red dreanei mockups and also mockups of red broken models (like the model of Erunak stonespeaker / earthen ring npcs)

  14. #394
    Herald of the Titans Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Nothing changes, fel corruption is more or less permanent, and fel is one of the hardest substances out there to resist, it pretty much slices through nearly all resistances. That is partially why it is so powerful. I doubt the Eredar can even use the Light, although obviously it can harm them. Also, it's worth noting fel corruption seems to result in either greyness or redness, as with the Eredar Twins or Archimonde and KJ. You can see this in the blood elves as well, who either get paler or ruddier, due to fel.

    That's where this skepticism crumbles apart on itself, it's just conspiracy thinking, making the big mean corporation into a commerical sell out enterprise just trying to trick you into giving them your money because they want profits.
    That isn't my view of them. I am simply concerned they will not put as much effort into this as it warrants. This isn't a pet issue, either. The player models are vastly outdated relative to other MMOs and are something many players have been asking to be updated for years on end. My point is more that Blizzard's priorities aren't always aligned with what concerns the playerbase. There has been a lot of dissatisfaction expressed over the years about the NE and BE models, and now they have the opportunity to re-think them, so I don't want it to go to waste.

    Again, one more dungeon or raid means far less to me at this point than new player models that are given Blizzard's full attention and effort, even if that means delaying the release of some of the models for a while. I am more than happy to wait for the finished article.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2013-12-27 at 12:49 PM.

  15. #395
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Nothing changes, fel corruption is more or less permanent, and fel is one of the hardest substances out there to resist, it pretty much slices through nearly all resistances. That is partially why it is so powerful. I doubt the Eredar can even use the Light, although obviously it can harm them. Also, it's worth noting fel corruption seems to result in either greyness or redness, as with the Eredar Twins or Archimonde and KJ. You can see this in the blood elves as well, who either get paler or ruddier, due to fel.
    Yeah, I don't think making exceptions for a fel-corrupted red draenei would work as far as a playable draenei sub-race goes. As cool as it would be, there's really nothing in place in the lore that would allow for friendly Eredar. Here is a red Draenei I found on google images. The only way I could possibly see it work is Bloodmyst Isle corruption or Draenei Warlocks.





    Also, here is an example of what we might expect the humans to look like.




    We can probably expect much more defined facial features, notably facial hair and eyes, proper fingers and toes, possibly chest hair or something if the Dwarves were any indication.
    Shrek is love, Shrek is life.

  16. #396
    Last picture of human looks pretty bad. Doesn't fit WoW at all. It's cartoony but not WoW's style.

  17. #397
    Bloodsail Admiral Snaige's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Last picture of human looks pretty bad. Doesn't fit WoW at all. It's cartoony but not WoW's style.
    Imho it would be a decent gnome on wow, but not human.

  18. #398
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Last picture of human looks pretty bad. Doesn't fit WoW at all. It's cartoony but not WoW's style.
    It's by Jordan Ewing, a Character artist at Wildstar, hence the cartoonyness. But expect the new models to be cartoonier than they were before, looking at the new Dwarves, Gnomes and Tauren.
    Shrek is love, Shrek is life.

  19. #399
    Herald of the Titans Zathrendar's Avatar
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    TBH I would rather they went with the Arthas look. He was a handsome fellow, and is a good direction for human males. Obviously there will be variety, and you wouldn't want them to tread too much on the angular niche of elves, but as humans are currently designed, I find them too blocky, which reduces their attractiveness. I liked the two models Yig linked best.

    Regarding fel/shadow corrupted draenei, what would distinguish them nicely would be tattoos, more pronounced horns etc. So, something between a pure draenei and an Eredar. Oddly enough, even though I am only vaguely attracted to women, I think the female Eredar are infinitely more attractive than the males. Partially because they look svelt and powerful. The males look sort of goofy, due to how blocky they are. A bit like the Michelin mascot. Which, again, is at odds with the original Eredar concept art.

    The one thing I hope they do with the elves is drown out the iris in their eyes with the magic glow in their eyes, like the BE female I linked on the previous page, and make the iris optional. I don't like seeing it. It has always been selectively used in the concept art and for some reason, it made it into the BE models. To me, the elves should be difficult to read and ooze with power, and letting the iris show through just makes them look like kawaii ^_^ elves with a hint of corruption. /yawn

    The same goes for the draenei and NE. The glow in their eyes should give them an impenetrable feel. Luckily, for the NE and draenei models, you cannot see their irises, but Blizzard may always decide to change that with the new models.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2013-12-27 at 07:18 PM.

  20. #400
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Last picture of human looks pretty bad. Doesn't fit WoW at all. It's cartoony but not WoW's style.
    dear god agreed.. that's f**king awful.. i mean for wow. It might look like something you can use in Dota, but seeing that running around stormwind would be vomit enduing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    It's by Jordan Ewing, a Character artist at Wildstar, hence the cartoonyness. But expect the new models to be cartoonier than they were before, looking at the new Dwarves, Gnomes and Tauren.
    aaaah yeah, yes I can see the wildstar design. Wow might have cartoony graphics, but its not that cartoony, its more Comic book animation then kids cartoon.

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