1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    It's by Jordan Ewing, a Character artist at Wildstar, hence the cartoonyness. But expect the new models to be cartoonier than they were before, looking at the new Dwarves, Gnomes and Tauren.
    Are they? I don't think so at all. Dwarf actually look more real and gritty than its current model.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Are they? I don't think so at all. Dwarf actually look more real and gritty than its current model.
    It's a blend of whimsical caricature cartooniness with gritty dirty mud and guts as a thin veneer. When you see the exaggerated physics and bouncy quality of the new models and their animations, the bouncier physics, the exaggerated facial expressions, it's all incredibly cartoony. WIldstar is just more elegant and Iron Giant where WOW is sort of more Pixar meets Blizzard.
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  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    It's a blend of whimsical caricature cartooniness with gritty dirty mud and guts as a thin veneer. When you see the exaggerated physics and bouncy quality of the new models and their animations, the bouncier physics, the exaggerated facial expressions, it's all incredibly cartoony. WIldstar is just more elegant and Iron Giant where WOW is sort of more Pixar meets Blizzard.
    I like cartoony but not all types of cartoony though. Dota2 and the human model that was linked are example of the kinds I don't like.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post

    That isn't my view of them. I am simply concerned they will not put as much effort into this as it warrants. This isn't a pet issue, either. The player models are vastly outdated relative to other MMOs and are something many players have been asking to be updated for years on end. My point is more that Blizzard's priorities aren't always aligned with what concerns the playerbase. There has been a lot of dissatisfaction expressed over the years about the NE and BE models, and now they have the opportunity to re-think them, so I don't want it to go to waste.

    Again, one more dungeon or raid means far less to me at this point than new player models that are given Blizzard's full attention and effort, even if that means delaying the release of some of the models for a while. I am more than happy to wait for the finished article.
    First, I apologize for lumping you in with the general consensus. But I still think you mistake effort for a matter of conflicting priorities between you and Blizzard. I would bet a pretty penny this is many of the team's dream project, many of them work for Blizzard because they were fans first, drawing orcs, elves, dwarves, and knights all day is the essence of Warcraft, and they finally get to sit down and work on the classics instead of adding to the ever expanding universe of this IP. I don't think you have to worry about effort. But I do think there's a chance we're getting a lot more customization than people have expected, where they expected nothing but 1:1 updates for current choices but we're ending up with Robinson talking about all kinds of new avenues and horizons.

    The challenge remains to be seen if they will be included at release or come later, but I think it's a safe bet now that they are eventually coming, things like orc posture, new hairstyles, and subraces have been talked about enough at this point I think it's just knee jerk cynicism to speak of the project as if it's a tease or dead in the water. But I think Blizzard also has a fundamental desire to keep things streamlined and contrary to what many of us feel, they do feel there is such a thing as too much choice and customization, despite what you see in the competition. But that's an issue I'd rather not break down and discuss the merits of.

    But I do take issue with the idea that people expressing dissatisfaction over Night Elves or Blood Elves is something Blizzard should act upon. I happen to in many ways love the male night elf. They were supposed to have over sized hands and feet, massive hulking shoulders, extremely narrow waists, and big floppy ears. That's not going to change, and if it does I'll eat my hat. They were designed to look like a caricature of this or this. Massive gigantic hands and feet, little narrow waists, hulking shoulders, floppy ears and all. Now take that and make it exaggerated.




    I actually only have one major issue with the night elf male model, namely his posture. His map opening animation demonstrates an improvement I feel from that rigidly symmetrical pose we're left with. See for yourself.

    He relaxes and spreads his feet apart, his head tilts down, that tilted head looks bad ass if you imagine it while he's not looking at a map, it looks like he's about to kick some ass as he's all out of bubble gum, and that's how Night Elves do. Looking at the Night Elf male with his map opening animation and in mid run, I love the model. I just want higher res skins, smoothed polygons and more defined forms, animated facial expressions overflowing with personality, and of course all their animations polished to look natural and more exciting and fresh. Their idle animations are going to be so cool. I just hope they ditch the female cheerleader bounce. That's one controversial aspect I think you may be right to expect a change, after all the talk of making Kaldorei for savage and sinister from dev's themselves.

    Then IMO they just need more customization, black hair a major wish for me, tattoos. As well as making their eyes glow silver or amber with an effect more like the Draenei or Blood Elf eye glow, not the weird orbs that float over their eye that makes them look like weird furbys.

    Those sinister narrow slits they have painted on their facial texture for eyes burning with amber or silver fire would look so bad ass from the weird vacant furby effect the round orbs end up evoking. But when it comes to giant hands and feet, I think people just need to look to the source.

    And we can't just say stop doing caricatures and make them as cool as you can in game after the tradition going back to WC1 of making the game art edgy and detailed while the in game world is vibrant and whimsical, there's a balance, and it's got nothing to do with effort, but aesthetics. I think you risk mixing up effort with opinions over that level of whimsy, perhaps I'm off base. I apologize if so.

    Granted the blood elf hip thing looks sloppy, they clearly stretched the model and contorted it into something it wasn't originally intended to look like, and it shows. But I really doubt they will remedy that issue in the name of preserving silhouette, not effort. And I don't think that's an excuse. I think it's a corner they painted themselves into. But I've shown what I think of that, the San'layn look more like a Blood Elf than the player model when you edit them. I love it. I'd kill to have the Silvermoon Spellbreaker's posture, but alas,...

    The orcs are a special exception. They were initially given instantly recognizable silhouettes, but at a cost that went too far. Blizzard over did it, and they clearly admit it. Every chance they've had to depict orcs in game since, they've altered the hunch to look like it should look.

    As I said before, it's just fucking depressing as hell to know I could look anywhere near this awesome with my orc instead of what I do look like.

    Instead I look like a twisted arthritic hermit shaman, a slack jawed peon, or a sinister twisted Gul'dan like figure. Gone is the savage power and physique of the warrior Thrall and Grommash. Hopefully Robinson's wishlist comes true in this regard. I might literally shed a human tear if so, and that tear will possibly cure cancer, even if I'm not a Hollywood martial artist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    I like cartoony but not all types of cartoony though. Dota2 and the human model that was linked are example of the kinds I don't like.
    I understand. WOW is good at blending the cartoon with the gritty while still being wonky. But Wildstar is gorgeous and looks like the Iron Giant mixed with Team Fortress 2 and I love it. WOW reminds me more of Dreamwork's Ice Age or Pixar mixed with the Sons of the Storm and Don Bluth.

    But Don Bluth was said to be a large influence on the look of Warcraft, going back to Warcraft 1. Lord of the Clans, the cancelled game, sort of took that Bluth style and mixed it with the 90s cartoon style you saw in the X-Men and Conan the animated series I guess you could say.

    The animated Warcraft series that never was:

    http://youtu.be/gslAG2OEO1c

    The interactive adventure game in the style of that series vaguely hybridized with Bluth's style you see in something like the Secret of Nimh.

    Game footage:http://youtu.be/DdZUnQs3D5Y

    Don Bluth's style:

    Really, no matter how good WOW's graphics get, it will ultimately strive to look like this cartoon essentially, with the art you see at the Sons of the Storm.


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  5. #405
    The Lightbringer Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, the actual proportions of the NE male are fine. I also like the features you mentioned. What I mean is their stiff animations, including their casting animations. Elves are nothing if not graceful, both the Kaldorei and Sin'dorei, and the model simply doesn't deliver upon that. Both races specialise in spellcasting as well as swordplay and archery, but their spellcasting animations fail to evoke that impression. The opposite holds true of the male draenei, who have goofy proportions and fluid animations. I think the Wrathguard looks a hell of a lot better, and if you compare it to this Eredar concept art, it actually aligns surprisingly well:





    The females are alright but I'd rather they went for this look than BE face copy/pastes:



    But I do think there's a chance we're getting a lot more customization than people have expected, where they expected nothing but 1:1 updates for current choices but we're ending up with Robinson talking about all kinds of new avenues and horizons.

    The challenge remains to be seen if they will be included at release or come later, but I think it's a safe bet now that they are eventually coming, things like orc posture, new hairstyles, and subraces have been talked about enough at this point I think it's just knee jerk cynicism to speak of the project as if it's a tease or dead in the water. But I think Blizzard also has a fundamental desire to keep things streamlined and contrary to what many of us feel, they do feel there is such a thing as too much choice and customization, despite what you see in the competition. But that's an issue I'd rather not break down and discuss the merits of.
    I am sure the BE model will be fine in terms of proportions and muscle tone, as Blizzard can quite easily fix this stuff without any complaint, and have done so with the proposed new models. It really is down to the posture, and I also think the casting animations aren't as badass as they could be, e.g. if you compare to the Blood Mage from TFT.

    I agree with you that Blizzard has painted itself in a corner, I just hope they are willing to break a few eggs in this case, to try and rectify that, as I really don't think they'll get a bad reaction from correcting the posture of the BE and orcs and the NE casting animations. In this case, there's very little reason for conservatism with respect to the models. I am hopeful that they will do everything you mentioned and go over and above what is currently anticipated from Blizzard, i.e. 1:1 updates, and they do seem willing to discuss these ideas. It's not the game's artistic style I dislike, as you will note from all the concept art I keep referring to, just some of the design decisions they made for the existing models. I think WOW has a much better aesthetic to its art than some games, which aim for realism but just end up looking bland. Now, there are exceptions, but what WoW delivers best upon is its cartoony, edgy feel.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2013-12-28 at 11:52 AM.

  6. #406
    If we could get options to determine our characters' body size, I would be so happy.

  7. #407
    The Lightbringer shoc's Avatar
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    I would like it if the Draenei were proportioned properly, and not look like some crazy torso machines and look more like their official artwork.

    Here's what I mean.

    Here are the contour comparisons between the artwork Draenei, which I find to be more representative of what Blizzard envisioned the Draenei to be, and the current Draenei, which doesn't need any explanation. Notice the differences in their figure.



    The artwork Draenei looks more slender, without losing much of his 'heroic' figure. It also has a more humanoid figure and lacks the extreme dimorphism that the males suffer compared to the females. His shoulders are more relaxed, and his forearms are smaller than his biceps. His thighs (presumably) come together, unlike the current Draenei whose legs protude from his waist, which results in the male Draenei having no ass whatsoever.



    1. Unnaturally wide shoulders, as well as a near vertical, log shaped torso.
    2. Again, shoulders, and rigid, perpetually held up shoulders.
    3. Forearms bigger than biceps.
    4. Massive thighs that protude forward way too much.
    5. Dat gap
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  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    I would like it if the Draenei were proportioned properly, and not look like some crazy torso machines and look more like their official artwork.

    Here's what I mean.

    Here are the contour comparisons between the artwork Draenei, which I find to be more representative of what Blizzard envisioned the Draenei to be, and the current Draenei, which doesn't need any explanation. Notice the differences in their figure.



    The artwork Draenei looks more slender, without losing much of his 'heroic' figure. It also has a more humanoid figure and lacks the extreme dimorphism that the males suffer compared to the females. His shoulders are more relaxed, and his forearms are smaller than his biceps. His thighs (presumably) come together, unlike the current Draenei whose legs protude from his waist, which results in the male Draenei having no ass whatsoever.



    1. Unnaturally wide shoulders, as well as a near vertical, log shaped torso.
    2. Again, shoulders, and rigid, perpetually held up shoulders.
    3. Forearms bigger than biceps.
    4. Massive thighs that protude forward way too much.
    5. Dat gap
    Yes, but this is what I think comes down to the artwork that is more edgy and realistic being expected in game over the cartoon caricature. I would love a more realistic Draenei, but when it comes to their cartoon caricature, I actually seem to be in the minority of who likes the way they're built like a refrigerator. It evokes over the top heroic courage, a Walt Disney hunk with a giant chin. Sort of reminds me of the Geni from Alladin. What raises my hackles is when people try to claim this makes them look fat.

    But you're comparing Glen Rayne's art to Chris Robinson's stylized caricatures of the Sons of the Storm art as if you expect the more realistic depictions Rayne works on. I agree there's a spectrum between the two and they could blend and meet more in the middle. But personally I love my Draenei with their almost minimalist art deco style and lush cel shaded mass sans line art .

    I'd love to see them looking like the Eredar art above as well, that strong profile and silhouette is killer, and with with Draenei coloring,... yum,... but while I feel your pain, I guess I'm just part of the vocal minority who like them now. They're just fun to me. I was quite literally serenaded the first few hours of TBC when making a Draenei, that beautiful ambient music with humming crystals, the gorgeous smooth blue flesh with such smooth lush gradients and the air of calm serenity to their facial expressions, I just want to give them a hug after they bashed something's head in with their glowing hammers and feel all glow-y in the light of the Naaru. Bless my beard, maybe I should tell my therapist about this.



    When you make a big beefy muscular form into a minimal form, it ends up looking like this. Some people seem to think it's fat looking I've noticed over the years.
    But that's the nigh universal visual language of caricature art I tend to go on about.

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  9. #409
    You should look at the leg line descending from the torso on the left side of the concept art. That leg isn't positioned forward, it's pointed straight down with some bowing due to muscle mass. That's a reversed pelvis we're looking at, which would force a more upright posture when standing and a full body bowing posture while running, more like a bird than a man. It shows a design with an honest understanding of why things develop tails and what they're for. It makes me wonder why they dropped it.
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  10. #410
    I think there's a good chance you'll get some more defined edges and form in their anatomy and facial plates when their updates come. I think it will be one of the most popular and simultaneously hated updates.
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  11. #411
    The Lightbringer Zathrendar's Avatar
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    They don't really look heroic to me, however that could be because I don't tend to equate just being over the top big to heroic; yet I suppose I can agree they have a 'heroic' look in the Disney cartoonish sense of the word. I prefer the way the two elven races and the humans are proportioned, to be honest, but obviously too much homogeneisation wouldn't be appealing. Still, if they could do something along the lines of that concept art I would be more than happy. I tend to play female draenei at present. I find the male ones attractive but too unwieldy to play.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2013-12-29 at 12:28 AM.
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  12. #412
    Holy shit the Dark Iron and Dragonmaw made me wet. Also Frostborn.

  13. #413
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    Male Draenei need to be more slender and have a longer, serpentine looking tail. Put some bones in the tail and give it animations too.

    They are so top heavy that they look like they would tip over if that Barney tail wasn't there to prop them up.

    And the females need to look less dimorphic. They are almost like two separate races.

    I've been wanting to make a Draenei since TBC but I don't play female toons and the males just don't look right at all. I hope they fix it, I would main a male Draenei with a better model.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    They don't really look heroic to me, however that could be because I don't tend to equate just being over the top big to heroic; yet I suppose I can agree they have a 'heroic' look in the Disney cartoonish sense of the word. I prefer the way the two elven races and the humans are proportioned, to be honest, but obviously too much homogeneisation wouldn't be appealing. Still, if they could do something along the lines of that concept art I would be more than happy. I tend to play female draenei at present. I find the male ones attractive but too unwieldy to play.
    It's kind of like the over the top Superman physique. Caricature art is fun, but loathed by many who start mistakenly applying ideas of sexual dimorphism over a visual language intended to convey nothing more than personality and character. But to each their own, I just really want to see the updates. More updates. Updates. Updaaaaates.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Telomerase View Post
    And the females need to look less dimorphic. They are almost like two separate races.
    In cartoons, personality and emotional impact trump biology, see Popeye. This is supposed to feel like we're in toon town from Roger Rabbit, the laws of physics take a back seat to the laws of a cartoon universe. Your preference is noted however.
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  15. #415
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    I've come to accept the dimorphism as part and parcel of the WoW universe, and I've quite taken to it. Nearly all races barring the little ones and Forsaken exhibit it. It fits in with it. I'd just like the male draenei physique to be svelter and look better in robes, and possess that badass look Wrathguards possess. I suspect they may want to keep the Wrathguard's look unique to him, however. I don't think either gender requires a huge adjustment, really. Even the comparison Shoc did to the concept art shows how subtle the changes are. You'd notice them if you knew where to look but not otherwise. The faces could of course do with a bit more individuation.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2013-12-29 at 12:43 AM.
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  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    In cartoons, personality and emotional impact trump biology, see Popeye. This is supposed to feel like we're in toon town from Roger Rabbit, the laws of physics take a back seat to the laws of a cartoon universe. Your preference is noted however.
    I get it. But the females at least need longer tails if nothing more.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Telomerase View Post
    I get it. But the females at least need longer tails if nothing more.
    They had longer tails in beta if I recall.
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  18. #418
    An example of what sets me off here about this sort of thing:http://familyinequality.wordpress.co...wrist-edition/

    People who actually base heart felt and passionate complaints and criticism to this level over dimorphism in cartoons annoy me, greatly. They have no fucking clue what they're talking about, it seems like to me it's just a game to them where they think they know the rules of something the artists somehow missed, like arguing over canon in Star Trek the Next Generation.

    Artists do these things because it's fun and it lets them speak in a different language of pure emotion and personality, it's not supposed to make sense. It's the impression it immediately makes on you, the personality that it evokes, it's caricature. So I'm sorry for bringing it up so much here, but the article above in question just drives me insane with the way they break this down as if it's a science that should follow rules. Cartooning is all about exaggeration for narrative and impact, tropes the mind latches onto as archetypes. The hero with the massive chin and roman nose and barrel chest, the pencil thin princess with the eyeballs bigger than her wrists. It's not violating any law, and it's not indicative of ignorance int he artist over their knowledge of anatomy which makes it the most frustrating thing of all to me. People act like the artist just didn't understand dimorphism or anatomy, when in reality it takes a greater grasp of form and anatomy in many ways than the photo realistic artist to break down these forms in their most simple and elegant forms and shapes and express them with as little description through line and detail as possible.

    It's a pet issue for me.
    Last edited by Yig; 2013-12-29 at 12:53 AM.
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  19. #419
    The Lightbringer Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Ya, I think people tend to overlook the artistic merit of a given style of art to push agendas in some cases, which is just silly. My only nag with Blizzard is that they deviate away from their art at times with their models; the art itself is pretty fantastic for the most part.
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  20. #420
    The Lightbringer shoc's Avatar
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    Regardless of all this, the only thing that really is for sure are the new previews we can expect within 3 weeks or so, hopefully there will be some Draenei previews for us too.

    And new previews means new mockups! Heck yeah. I'll probably redo some of the earlier mockups, I did these as a photoshop practice exercise after all so hopefully I've improved a little bit. Looking forward to doing the San'layn Blood Elves and Demon Hunter Night Elves.
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