1. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    No, it changes you physically. To say it 'corrupts' is to make an evaluation of whether the change is good or bad. It isn't either of necessity.

    As for shamanism, again no, I am implying that it involves dealing with beings that are not necessarily well intentioned. Two of the elemental lords were in league with the Old Gods, after all. The magic itself may not be corruptive but it opens the doorways for such beings to exert a corruptive influence, I would think. Re the Scarlets, it is the state of mind of absolute conviction I am referring to, as I don't believe the Scarlets started out bad. Again, all I am saying is that all forms of power are capable of breeding hubris, and by and large the stuff that is written about the arcane is from particular NPC perspectives - the only thing we know for sure it does stimulate is an appetite for fel, if you use fel. In turn, fel is dangerous if used in an undisciplined way, but it's a different concern.

    If the argument were that the arcane gives such a rush of power, that it is disproportionately more dangerous than other forms of power, I could buy that, but again its main risks have always been presented in attracting the Legion's power and/or lapsing over to the Legion or necromancy, which a minority of mages fall prone to.
    The fact that it make the users dependent on it is not corruptive? That sounds like drug. you don't need to use fel for it to make you addicted to it. Just pure simple arcane is enough.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    my main problem with that reasoning is that the highbourne rebels fought alongside them.

    had the druids fought then locked up the highbourne rebels and said okay we wont kill you but you cant use magic, then i would agree.

    but dath'remar and his rebels were integral to winning the war of the ancients, he saved tyrandes life, they risked their own lives by turning away from azshara, they fought side by side with the druids and used the same magic they vilified in order to help them win, without them they wouldve lost or atleast had been severely gimped in the war.

    then to go back and say "hey i know you guys fought side by side with us and that your magic helped us win but stop using it or ill kill you"

    that just rubs me the wrong way, they fought just as hard as the druids did, they didnt plan on abusing magic they just wanted to continue using the same power that had come to be essential in their lives.

    in my opinion they deserved that.

    demon hunters i understand a bit more but even so when times are tough what does tyrande do? she breaks illidan right out and brings him back into the fold as soon as times get tough. that to me gives the vibe that "hey this is bad, until we need what you do, then its not bad, until we say its bad again"

    alpha prime i agree, he did go insane but part of the reason he ended up going to far is because of the way malfurion treated experimentation among druidism.

    the main way i view night elf culture is one of stagnation due to harsh tradition.

    its not that they arent nice to people, or that they arent accepting. its that they seem so easy to go back on their morals the minute times get a bit to tough.

    and its not that they are the only race that ever acts that way but i find that blizzard tends to focus mainly on characters that do act that way when it comes to the night elves.

    id like to see more night elves willing to break tradition, more variety among their character archtypes
    The druids didn't fight in WotA. There was only one druid at that time which was Malfurion.

  2. #1242
    Pit Lord Zathrendar's Avatar
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    You could make the same argument of modern technology. Our entire evolution has consisted in advances that have made us more and more dependent on our artifices. Likewise with the Highborne (and their descendants) or the Eredar and the arcane. All things have their costs and benefits. So again, what some may call 'corruption', others will call 'evolution', and like I said, the perspectives on the arcane in Azeroth are by and large written by unsympathetic druids.

    Regarding the druids, interestingly many used to be arcanists.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

  3. #1243
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    You could make the same argument of modern technology. Our entire evolution has consisted in advances that have made us more and more dependent on our artifices. Likewise with the Highborne (and their descendants) or the Eredar and the arcane. All things have their costs and benefits. So again, what some may call 'corruption', others will call 'evolution', and like I said, the perspectives on the arcane in Azeroth are by and large written by unsympathetic druids.

    Regarding the druids, interestingly many used to be arcanists.
    No, they are mostly written by Kirin Tor mages who know about arcane the most in Azeroth. That's why they know it need to be taught in a right way.

  4. #1244
    Pit Lord Zathrendar's Avatar
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    True, it's about conveying the right attitude towards it, or more cynically, scaring the competition out of it. That's my point, a lot of this stuff is written from a certain vantage point.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2014-02-11 at 08:35 PM.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

  5. #1245
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Not all night elf is that into nature though. Yes, they do live in the wild but they are not all druid-like.
    I don't think you know half of what you're trying to talk about. But I appreciate your effort and enthusiasm.

    EDIT: This came off sounding more asshole-ish than I meant it to, I wasn't in tip top shape at the time of the post. I meant that about the post I made and why I made it, I was kind of kidding around about owls and just wanting racial armor, didn't mean to try to stir up anything about all night elves being the same.

    But on that subject overall I'd say all Night Elves are raised with a reverence for nature, the Ancients, the Aspects, and the Titans, with special names for many of them in their old language. Some people like to RP snarky Night Elves covered in engineering gadgets and using dwarven accents, but it ends up seeming like more people are trying to be atypical than actual typical night elves over the years. I love to see people being typical night elves, but most everyone is all casual and snarky like we're in a Douglas Adams novel, the nerd sense of humor will not be stopped It ends up creating a funny affect when the norm becomes exactly what you would expect as the exception to the norm.

    I like a good pissed off female rogue mogged out in Warden armor or a Sentinel. Especially if they're harassing me for praying in the Temple of the Moon.

    I like a good serious ancient being of cold demeanor and formal speech myself.

    Anyways, I didn't mean to say you don't know what you're talking about, that came out wrong. I meant to say I basically wasn't clear about what I was talking about in the post you replied to and my reply just came off with my foot in my mouth.

    /apology

    - - - Updated - - -

    On a side not, I made a post asking Robinson about the update of this face, and if they plan on giving it more of a tattoo or actually indulge demon hunter fans with a permanent 3d Cursed Vision model.


    Because at this point in the game, the demon hunter's future is just looking grim, they've cannibalized their hero unit mechanics between rogues and warlocks, and the lore is just all fucked up with Knaak's book contradicting the WC3 lore.

    We're left with being a wannabe demon hunter it seems for all time. No night elf warlocks, no melee dual wielding warlocks, no warglaives to transmog for rogues, these simple gaps are the only thing left giving me hope a demon hunter concept is being reserved tol be fleshed out when the time comes for a full on Burning Legion expansion. But I'm so sick of 9 years of talking about this issue along with Pandaren being put into the game. At least I got to stand on the mountain of skulls of the assholes who insisted Pandaren would never happen. I still see a class here rich in custom dramatic animations and themes with highly acrobatic maneuverable charges and flourishes and whirling dervish combo chains, I'd love to go into this more but I'm off topic.

    But I'm weary of trying to defend them as more than Illidan wannabes. And people who don't like them love to make then all into nothing but Illidan wannabes. So just give me some glaives I can mog and let me be a pathetic half neutered demon hunter wannabe in peace so I can go in the corner and die a happy man,...

    /wrists
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-02-13 at 02:12 AM.
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  6. #1246
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    @Yig

    There were a couple concerns regarding how well the old facial features would translate onto the new models, so I made this little comparison between the old and new Forsaken Iron-jaws.



    If we can expect this level of fidelity from the Undead, I can't wait to see how the Night Elves turn out.


    Also I got bored and wrote up a quasi-demon hunter class concept, check it out.
    Shrek is love, Shrek is life.

  7. #1247
    The Lightbringer Nalira's Avatar
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    I never knew this was supposed to be iron. I just thought it was rotten to the point of turning grey. Well..
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Knowing Celestalon, he both A) doesn't know and B) will nerf the spec until he figures it out while denying it ever happened.
    "Mastery will fix it."

  8. #1248
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalira View Post
    I never knew this was supposed to be iron. I just thought it was rotten to the point of turning grey. Well..
    That's the beauty of the new models, now we finally know what we are looking at. I wonder what else we've been misunderstanding.
    Shrek is love, Shrek is life.

  9. #1249
    High Overlord Zomp's Avatar
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    I really want to know what those black things on my priests face are. :/ Make up? Scars? Rotting eye fluid?

  10. #1250
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zomp View Post
    I really want to know what those black things on my priests face are. :/ Make up? Scars? Rotting eye fluid?
    Probably the same eye markings that Sylvanas has. And jesus female undeads are going to look terrifying with hollowed out eyes and decaying jaws.
    Shrek is love, Shrek is life.

  11. #1251
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Probably the same eye markings that Sylvanas has. And jesus female undeads are going to look terrifying with hollowed out eyes and decaying jaws.
    That's actually a metal plate, not a decaying under-bite.

  12. #1252
    High Overlord Zomp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Probably the same eye markings that Sylvanas has. And jesus female undeads are going to look terrifying with hollowed out eyes and decaying jaws.
    Sure hope so. Gotta look lovely while using my Cannibalize racial!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
    That's actually a metal plate, not a decaying under-bite.
    Nah, mines the decaying jaw one. They do look super similar though.


    Edit: The metal jaw also leaves the eye glow intact ingame while the bone jaw takes it away.
    Last edited by Zomp; 2014-02-14 at 12:23 PM.

  13. #1253
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zomp View Post
    Sure hope so. Gotta look lovely while using my Cannibalize racial!


    Nah, mines the decaying jaw one. They do look super similar though.


    Edit: The metal jaw also leaves the eye glow intact ingame while the bone jaw takes it away.
    Speaking of cannibalize, their new animations are probably going to involve some higher-def tearing and chewing.... I can't wait!
    Shrek is love, Shrek is life.

  14. #1254
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Speaking of cannibalize, their new animations are probably going to involve some higher-def tearing and chewing.... I can't wait!
    Doubt it, after all it is blizzard. They half arse nearly everything they do.

  15. #1255
    Fluffy Kitten Lokann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomeplant View Post
    Doubt it, after all it is blizzard. They half arse nearly everything they do.
    When trolls got a cannibalise animation back in Wrath, it was not remotely half-arsed. Neither are any of the new model animations that we have seen so far.



  16. #1256
    The Patient Kelthos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Highbourne also work well - those Mages who never left with the High Elves.
    As a person who has a Night Elf for their main and participates in a lot of Night Elf RP, I don't think Night Elves need or should get a sub-race just for the sake of having one.

    Highborne are literally just a title for noble-born Night Elves. They are not special save that they typically have white hair and blue skin. Other than that, they are Night Elves. Want a highborne? Make a Night Elf with blue skin and white hair.

    As for Dark Trolls, the last tribe got annihilated when the Twilight's Hammer invaded Hyjal. Not to mention they haven't had a really big presence in any of the Warcraft games so putting them in would just feel forced imo.

  17. #1257
    Pit Lord Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Well bear in mind most proposed subraces would feature very minor cosmetic adjustments, e.g. the Wildhammer. The Highborne are not necessarily visually distinct from most NE, however their aesthetic style could differentiate them, and perhaps their eyes could be given an azure glow. They are, however, distinct in terms of their innate ability for arcane magic and (arguably) higher intelligence*. The arcane altered them in what was originally described as a painful transformation, and aeons of selective breeding formed a caste highly proficient in it, so you could justify them as a subrace on account of the fact that subraces could potentially (according to the blues that touted the idea) feature minor racial perks. I'd agree on the Dark Trolls feeling very forced.

    I do think NE would be an excellent vehicle for a HE subrace, as it allows Blizzard to bring in what is a widely demanded and prominent (in terms of faction engagement and representation) race without having to sacrifice a race slot for them. The best of both worlds. Like Yig mentioned, this could easily involve greater acceptance amongst the kaldorei of their quel'dorei brethren, given that they now have accepted in their midst the Highborne, but also the Gilnean refugees, and have had much time to become better acquainted with their cousins.

    It is worth bearing in mind that the Shen'dralar have engaged in some pretty questionable practices themselves (with Eldre'thalas being an administrative centre during Azshara's reign, and also the epicentre of a demon being drained for the local residents to retain their immortality; even if the Shen'dralar did not directly engage in such acts themselves, the suspicious kaldorei could've engaged assigning guilty by association), so it was no small act of desperation and re-examination of their values that led their brethren to accept them back. Surely the quel'dorei who resisted the temptation and perceived necessity of fel have done just as much to prove themselves to the kaldorei. As is the case no doubt for those blood elves who now have forsaken it and are re-considering their old faction. A lot of the bad blood between all these kindred races resides in actions that took place in the heat of the moment, and time does heal many wounds. This could also be a great lore vehicle for the restoration and integration of Eldre'thalas into the lore as a Highborne/quel'dorei hub, along with their other natural concentration points, Dalaran & Stormwind.

    *I say this because both BE and HE possess this trait. It makes sense that this was a trait that set in place from their evolution into Highborne and onwards, and possibly so for Naga females as well. You can argue Old God influences with the Naga females, but I think it's likelier that the males became a little dumber than anything else, such that they're now on par with a human in intellect on average. This is all reliant on the WRPG which cannot be taken as 100% canon, but suffices as a good guide to such things.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2014-02-14 at 11:19 PM.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

  18. #1258
    Warchief Caesius Baelthar's Avatar
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    If they do eventually add high elves then I hope they give them a distinct culture that doesn't revolve around them fawning over the Alliance. They might loathe the Horde and dislike what their fel-tainted brethren have done in order to survive but it's all too often ignored by the high elves that the Kirin Tor and Alliance are responsible for quite a few of the obstacles and issues that the blood elves and high elves have had to deal with over the last few decades. If handled well it could make for some pretty interesting intrigue.

  19. #1259
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Well bear in mind most proposed subraces would feature very minor cosmetic adjustments, e.g. the Wildhammer. The Highborne are not necessarily visually distinct from most NE, however their aesthetic style could differentiate them, and perhaps their eyes could be given an azure glow. They are, however, distinct in terms of their innate ability for arcane magic and (arguably) higher intelligence*. The arcane altered them in what was originally described as a painful transformation, and aeons of selective breeding formed a caste highly proficient in it, so you could justify them as a subrace on account of the fact that subraces could potentially (according to the blues that touted the idea) feature minor racial perks. I'd agree on the Dark Trolls feeling very forced.

    I do think NE would be an excellent vehicle for a HE subrace, as it allows Blizzard to bring in what is a widely demanded and prominent (in terms of faction engagement and representation) race without having to sacrifice a race slot for them. The best of both worlds. Like Yig mentioned, this could easily involve greater acceptance amongst the kaldorei of their quel'dorei brethren, given that they now have accepted in their midst the Highborne, but also the Gilnean refugees, and have had much time to become better acquainted with their cousins.

    It is worth bearing in mind that the Shen'dralar have engaged in some pretty questionable practices themselves (with Eldre'thalas being an administrative centre during Azshara's reign, and also the epicentre of a demon being drained for the local residents to retain their immortality; even if the Shen'dralar did not directly engage in such acts themselves, the suspicious kaldorei could've engaged assigning guilty by association), so it was no small act of desperation and re-examination of their values that led their brethren to accept them back. Surely the quel'dorei who resisted the temptation and perceived necessity of fel have done just as much to prove themselves to the kaldorei. As is the case no doubt for those blood elves who now have forsaken it and are re-considering their old faction. A lot of the bad blood between all these kindred races resides in actions that took place in the heat of the moment, and time does heal many wounds. This could also be a great lore vehicle for the restoration and integration of Eldre'thalas into the lore as a Highborne/quel'dorei hub, along with their other natural concentration points, Dalaran & Stormwind.

    *I say this because both BE and HE possess this trait. It makes sense that this was a trait that set in place from their evolution into Highborne and onwards, and possibly so for Naga females as well. You can argue Old God influences with the Naga females, but I think it's likelier that the males became a little dumber than anything else, such that they're now on par with a human in intellect on average. This is all reliant on the WRPG which cannot be taken as 100% canon, but suffices as a good guide to such things.
    I want to clarify one thing the high elves and blood elves that were separated by absorvian mana of mana wyrm.

    fel was not the reason, and civilian blood elves did not know that the crystals were fel.

  20. #1260
    Pit Lord Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Yes, it's a pity Blizzard decided to go with that rather dull, unnecessary twist, as I thought their desperate situation made their acceptance of fel understandable. Alas, shades of moral grayness are lost upon players who just want to view everything in fantasy as a Manichaean struggle between black and white evil and good. When I speak of fel, I am referring more so to how the kaldorei would perceive them, and the similarity between their situation and those of the Shen'dralar who drained Immolthar. You're right, however.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

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