1. #1621
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post

    All that aside, I'm warming up to the idea that Vrykul interbred with a native species the Azotha to explain some of the genetic variation in humans.
    Haha like a sort of Warcraftian Neanderthal? Now THAT would be interesting. I assume though that the Vrykul mothers hid their ugly children away in the Arathi Highlands to start, paving the way for the first Human tribes. Through skirmishes with the Trolls over thousands of years they migrated all across the Eastern Kingdoms, reaching as far north as Quel'thelas and as far south as Stranglethorn. I'd imagine they found a way onto some islands and desert lands, hence black people and asians. But maybe just maybe I am looking too far into this.
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  2. #1622
    There's no real reason to assume the Azotha retained much of a "nordic" theme from their Vrykul ancestors. They were forcibly separated from that culture and became isolated very early in their civilisation.

    I don't think there's any native species in the Eastern Kingdoms they could've interbred with. Elves? Trolls? Don't think either would make sense.

    Then again, the idea that any of the species in Warcraft can interbreed makes no sense either.

    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=1316 is Black

    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=5479 is Asian

    And I don't mean to come off as racist at all, I'm just saying that Humans of every race exist within Human society, there just aren't any explanations given to where they might have come from, Elder Scrolls style. Even the Orcs explain that the Brown Orcs are uncorrupted and from Nagrand, Blackrock Orcs are black because the heat and ash from Blackrock Mountain/Gorgorond.
    Out-universe explanation: all skins are available for RP purposes.

    In-universe explanation: Azeroth didn't have population bottlenecks that would cause racial differentiation, therefore the full range of racial traits is present in every human nation (this is not strictly biologically accurate, but hey, a wizard did it).

    In Azeroth terms, "black" and "Asian" are just like blonde/brunette, blue/brown/green eyes in modern Western countries.

    Really though this is just because the game wanted to be open to players and PC, in the original Warcraft games all fighting units were white males. In keeping with the pseudo-medieval fantasy setting. But you can be a black female warrior in WoW and no NPC ever bats an eye. One assumes that the lore is invisibly retconned to make this make sense. Not that it was ever addressed in either Warcraft or WoW eras, that I know of.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2014-02-25 at 05:38 AM.
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  3. #1623
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=1316 is Black

    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=5479 is Asian

    And I don't mean to come off as racist at all, I'm just saying that Humans of every race exist within Human society, there just aren't any explanations given to where they might have come from, Elder Scrolls style. Even the Orcs explain that the Brown Orcs are uncorrupted and from Nagrand, Blackrock Orcs are black because the heat and ash from Blackrock Mountain/Gorgorond.
    I didn't say you were being racist silly.

    I know there are black people. I referenced that in my last post :P

    I don't know if that guy is actually asian. He looks like any other white guy. For all we know he could be named after a pandaren, or it could just be a reference blizzard is making or a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    There's no real reason to assume the Azotha retained much of a "nordic" theme from their Vrykul ancestors. They were forcibly separated from that culture and became isolated very early in their civilisation.

    I don't think there's any native species in the Eastern Kingdoms they could've interbred with. Elves? Trolls? Don't think either would make sense.

    Then again, the idea that any of the species in Warcraft can interbreed makes no sense either.



    Out-universe explanation: all skins are available for RP purposes.

    In-universe explanation: Azeroth didn't have population bottlenecks that would cause racial differentiation, therefore the full range of racial traits is present in every human nation (this is not strictly biologically accurate, but hey, a wizard did it).

    In Azeroth terms, "black" and "Asian" are just like blonde/brunette, blue/brown/green eyes in modern Western countries.

    Really though this is just because the game wanted to be open to players and PC, in the original Warcraft games all fighting units were white males. In keeping with the pseudo-medieval fantasy setting. But you can be a black female warrior in WoW and no NPC ever bats an eye. One assumes that the lore is invisibly retconned to make this make sense. Not that it was ever addressed in either Warcraft or WoW eras, that I know of.
    I dont see it as much of a retcon so much as game limitations. They weren't going to individually render every unit based on what nation they're from, and they wont completely distinguish them in WoW for the same reasons.

  4. #1624
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    There's no real reason to assume the Azotha retained much of a "nordic" theme from their Vrykul ancestors. They were forcibly separated from that culture and became isolated very early in their civilisation.

    I don't think there's any native species in the Eastern Kingdoms they could've interbred with. Elves? Trolls? Don't think either would make sense.

    Then again, the idea that any of the species in Warcraft can interbreed makes no sense either.
    The idea is that, since it isn't expressly stated that the Azotha descended from the Vrykul, that both the Vrykul and Azotha could be separate progenitor races of humans that interbred.
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  5. #1625
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotrip View Post
    I dont see it as much of a retcon so much as game limitations. They weren't going to individually render every unit based on what nation they're from, and they wont completely distinguish them in WoW for the same reasons.
    I think Warcraft 1-2 were much more traditional fantasy which had a more realistic medieval european society, ergo everyone was white and the men went out to fight while women stayed at home weaving on looms or whatever. It was never actually stated anywhere though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    The idea is that, since it isn't expressly stated that the Azotha descended from the Vrykul, that both the Vrykul and Azotha could be separate progenitor races of humans that interbred.
    I suppose, seems unnecessarily complex though. Presumably the Azotha would have to derive from the same Titan "human" seed race somehow, otherwise you have two "human" races with totally different origins on Azeroth.
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  6. #1626
    Warchief Caesius Baelthar's Avatar
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    I quite liked the traditional fantasy angle where humans are concerned. Then again I've never really understood the need and/or pressure for fantasy settings to accommodate and adhere to modern day values of inclusion and representation. I'm all for better customisation options for humans, though - but from the angle of allowing each major nation to be somewhat distinct in their appearance rather than doing so out of a need to reflect real world diversity.

  7. #1627
    The Patient Amnaught's Avatar
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    I have a feeling we wont see rubraces this expansion, but maybe next one. They would need to tweak the starting zones slightly, after all. Like, to explain why Mag'Har orcs are in Durotar, and doesn't the opening cutscene for dwarves explain that you're an Ironforge Dwarf? The easiest graphical subrace, Gilnean Human, would be awesome to play as, but the entire starting zone is about you becoming a Worgen. They would need separate starting quests.

  8. #1628
    Quote Originally Posted by Caesius Baelthar View Post
    I quite liked the traditional fantasy angle where humans are concerned. Then again I've never really understood the need and/or pressure for fantasy settings to accommodate and adhere to modern day values of inclusion and representation.
    I guess because if you're a girl and you roll a toon in Warcraft and your only available classes are Weaver, Seamstress and Loving Wife you would be kind of mad.

    Although to be honest, a lot of males would probably play those for RP purposes. Especially if there was a Trollop class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    I have a feeling we wont see rubraces this expansion, but maybe next one. They would need to tweak the starting zones slightly, after all. Like, to explain why Mag'Har orcs are in Durotar, and doesn't the opening cutscene for dwarves explain that you're an Ironforge Dwarf? The easiest graphical subrace, Gilnean Human, would be awesome to play as, but the entire starting zone is about you becoming a Worgen. They would need separate starting quests.
    I don't think the Dwarf chain explicitly states that you're Ironforge (my memory is hazy) but yeah it's strongly implied given you start in Dun Morogh instead of Twilight Highlands.

    If they allowed you to change to most of the proposed subraces really the starting experience would no longer make sense, you'd either have to ignore it or they'd have to make 21+ new 1-10 zones which is unlikely to say the least.
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    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
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  9. #1629
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    I have a feeling we wont see rubraces this expansion, but maybe next one. They would need to tweak the starting zones slightly, after all. Like, to explain why Mag'Har orcs are in Durotar, and doesn't the opening cutscene for dwarves explain that you're an Ironforge Dwarf? The easiest graphical subrace, Gilnean Human, would be awesome to play as, but the entire starting zone is about you becoming a Worgen. They would need separate starting quests.
    The Gilnean one could probably be handled by you trying to rescue a family member who had been converted. You'd follow the same story, but from a different perspective, and of course, your friend wouldn't be able to be saved like a player character is, and you'd have to put them down.

    With the dwarves, it would probably be a good idea to update the starting cinematic narrative to explain more about the three hammers and what's become of Magni. By doing that, you wouldn't need to change the beginning very much, though it would be cool to start out as a dark iron down in black rock; that dungeon is too cool to be used so rarely.
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  10. #1630
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    Skin color expression could be a binary phenotype in Warcraft. This would let there be a wide variety of "races" that all interbreed without losing variation. So, skin color ends up more like hair color, where it never really goes away.

    I guess it's also possible that skin color is a response to some dietary or environmental factor, but that's something that should have been explored already if that's the case. Though, if someone created a fantasy universe where disease or starvation caused a group to express my genetic traits I would be a little uncomfortable with that.

    All that aside, I'm warming up to the idea that Vrykul interbred with a native species the Azotha to explain some of the genetic variation in humans.
    I love when people speculate on lore like this. Reminds me of the crazy ideas we throw around over at the elder scrolls forums. Really though, this is a goo theory.

  11. #1631
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I suppose, seems unnecessarily complex though. Presumably the Azotha would have to derive from the same Titan "human" seed race somehow, otherwise you have two "human" races with totally different origins on Azeroth.
    I think they could work as a completely separate race, with little in the way of ties to Titans. Just some sort of race that's been completely wiped out and only vaguely remembered by history. While it is a bit complicated, genetics often are even when confined to science, let alone Azerothian genetics.
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  12. #1632
    Quote Originally Posted by Alteiry View Post
    Rhlor and Skeppio, could you be bothered to snip all the images in your quote blocks? You just made the page like a mile long.
    Sorry about that. I went back and fixed it.

  13. #1633
    all i know is that i will take 24 more expansions about garrosh and time travel if it means i get to be an alliance high elf death knight

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    I have a feeling we wont see rubraces this expansion, but maybe next one. They would need to tweak the starting zones slightly, after all. Like, to explain why Mag'Har orcs are in Durotar, and doesn't the opening cutscene for dwarves explain that you're an Ironforge Dwarf? The easiest graphical subrace, Gilnean Human, would be awesome to play as, but the entire starting zone is about you becoming a Worgen. They would need separate starting quests.
    i think thats really overcomplicating things when like the vast majority of the people who want subraces are just gonna racechange anyways
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  14. #1634
    I don't think the starting zones require much, if any tweaking. The Alliance and Horde are pretty mixed at this point, so it's not just going to be humans in Elwynn and Ironforge Dwarves in Dun Morogh. The only one requiring any real change would be a non-cursed Gilnean, which imo would be the most pointless subrace ever. If you want to RP a Gilnean human, just make a regular human and RP as a refugee from Gilneas. They're not going to tweak starting zones just so you can roll play on your own in instanced Gilneas for a day.

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    Maybe a bit of flavour text would be nice though, like if you're a Dark Iron Dwarf the others are more distrustful of you.
    Disclaimer: No I'm not Alliance. I reserve the right to bat for both factions thank you very much.


  15. #1635
    Dark Irons and Wildhammer specifically moved into Ironforge in Cataclysm, wtf are you people smoking. There are Wildhammer shaman trainers now in the starting areas, and a Dark Iron embassy is in Ironforge.
    Mag'har have been coming to Orgrimmar since Thrall established contact with Nagrand. The same reason 20 somethings from the midwest all flock to NYC and LA. It's the place to go. Mag'har NPCs are all over the place. You don't need a huge reason for half o these there is already precedent. As soon as we establish relations with a new faction, we begin trading with them. We have all manner of people's in our cities from all over the world and Planar Realms, the game is limited, the lore is not. You even have human mercenaries and warlocks living in Orgrimmar. This isn't a land of stereotypes, as fun as they are. Cataclysm specifically was about shaking up the world so fring elements so rare they were all but unheard of came out of hiding and became playable. They ares till fringe elements. At most we need a voice over for the intro narrative level 1 opening, and a custom 1st quest text.
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  16. #1636
    Herald of the Titans shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    Dark Irons and Wildhammer specifically moved into Ironforge in Cataclysm, wtf are you people smoking. There are Wildhammer shaman trainers now in the starting areas, and a Dark Iron embassy is in Ironforge.
    Mag'har have been coming to Orgrimmar since Thrall established contact with Nagrand. The same reason 20 somethings from the midwest all flock to NYC and LA. It's the place to go. Mag'har NPCs are all over the place. You don't need a huge reason for half o these there is already precedent. As soon as we establish relations with a new faction, we begin trading with them. We have all manner of people's in our cities from all over the world and Planar Realms, the game is limited, the lore is not. You even have human mercenaries and warlocks living in Orgrimmar. This isn't a land of stereotypes, as fun as they are. Cataclysm specifically was about shaking up the world so fring elements so rare they were all but unheard of came out of hiding and became playable. They ares till fringe elements. At most we need a voice over for the intro narrative level 1 opening, and a custom 1st quest text.
    I would like for them just to have race specific scenarios for each sub-race option that gives a little backstory as to why they are suddenly a playable sub-race, which would definitely beat a line of dialogue in the starter zone. I would prefer sub-races be account-unlocked at max level instead of being available at level 1.
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  17. #1637
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    I would like for them just to have race specific scenarios for each sub-race option that gives a little backstory as to why they are suddenly a playable sub-race, which would definitely beat a line of dialogue in the starter zone. I would prefer sub-races be account-unlocked at max level instead of being available at level 1.
    A think a quest line to unlock each sub race would be the best. Racial themed heirlooms as a reward as well to give a bit more of an incentive to complete them beyond just customisation and scaled so you can complete them at any level past say 10.
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  18. #1638
    Pit Lord Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotrip View Post
    I also have the points I made beneath the quote, which are directly from the games. Warcraft III, the lore of the kaldorei, the well of eternity, the history of Dalaran (they were attracting demons JUST by using arcane magic) the fact that the high elves needed those runestones to hide their magical activity from the burning legion (They weren't widely using fel magic back then, these stones were built thousands of years ago).

    The guardians of Tirisfal, like Aegwyyn and Medivh, were created in response to increased demon attacks after the high elves taught humans how to use arcane magic after the troll wars. The Guardians were supposed to be (hopefully) the only people who could be trusted with that level of arcane magic and not be corrupted, but as we know, Medivh was tainted by Sargeras at the moment of his birth so that didn't really work out.

    But yes, read all the points I listed below that quote as well.
    The 'corruptive' nature of the arcane stems from it making fel more appetising. Little more. It does alter the person using it but as I said before, that's merely an evolutionary property of it. You could consider the addiction corruptive but like Aeluron said, the sources in question are outdated and de-canonised. They may be true, but equally they may be written from the POV of overly cautious (or cynical) wizards or druids.

    The addiction is simply a dependence on it by creatures which have been evolved by using arcane energies. I wouldn't consider it corruptive, just the price of this evolution. That said, I agree with Caesius. Just because they now have a buffer to sate their addiction does not mean they're all goody two shoes.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2014-02-25 at 07:35 PM.
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  19. #1639
    Mechagnome Vightnic's Avatar
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    I don't see the point in putting conditions on subrace availability. They're either a part of the faction or they're not.
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  20. #1640
    Pit Lord Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    I always considering Stormwind to be a big melting pot city made up of members of every Human nation. There are Humans of all colours residing in Stormwind, which would seem a little odd considering their geographic identicalness. It's not like in Elder Scrolls where you have the Nordic Nords from Scandinavia aka Skyrim, and the Redguards from the Desert. In my own little headcanon, I always considered it to be like this:

    Arathorian: Nordic, Viking types
    Gilnean: British, White guys
    Kul tiras: Darker, more Spanish esque
    Lordaeron: Medieval Europeans
    Dalaran: Wizards

    Where Black and Asian Humans came from, I have no idea.
    Well that's my point. All the known kingdoms are European (by which I mean Europid caucasian, which would include Spaniards) in nature. There's a couple of black NPCs here and there but it does seem black dragons quite like taking human form, so who knows? SW is a melting pot but the humans there don't seem particularly dark, either. It's interesting to speculate on those oddball NPCs out there. Humans descend from the Vrykul and it is the Curse of Flesh that was the primary evolutionary agent on the humans, so give or take a few thousand years, I don't see much time for them to differentiate much from each other, so much so as to form distinct subraces. It's possible that it did nonetheless occur.

    I don't particularly care, as I don't see the game as having an obligation to equally represent each RL race. It should make sense within the confines of the setting. TBH, because Blizzard borrows so extensively from real world mythologies and cultures, they may have done this to reserve particular niches for non-human races. E.g. whereas the Pandaren have Chinese vibes to them. All that would be required is just to give some ethnicities as 'subraces', it'd be just peachy.
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2014-02-25 at 07:46 PM.
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