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  1. #1001
    Death knights were completely controlled by the Lich King... Felbloods willingly bathed in demon blood, and i don't think all races NEED to have equal number of sub races or even a sub race, What i'd propose is races that share a slot to the races which they are culturally closest too, but they'd also have their own class restrictions. my choices would be:

    ---Alliance---

    Stormwind: Humans and High Elves (same classes, BE model with blue eyes, maybe minus Warlock), Warlocks, priests and death knights could also get the Cultist type skins.

    Dwarves: Bronzebeard (Paladin, Warrior, Hunter, Mage, Rogue, Priest, Monk, Death knight)
    Wildhammer (Warrior, Hunter, Shaman, Rogue, Monk)
    Dark Iron (Warrior, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue, Monk, Mage)

    Gnomes: Uh... Gnomeregan gnomes? (Should get paladins)

    Night Elf: Kaldorei Highborne (Paler skin, blue glowing eyes, can't be druids, death knights or priests)

    Draenei: I don't know if they should get Broken as they require a new model, in case they should then...
    Broken: (Rogues, Shaman, Warrior, Mage, Monk, Hunter)

    Worgen: get gilnean humans.
    Gilnean: (Druid instead of Death Knight, can't transform to Worgen. Even if Harvest Witches are tipically weaker than normal Druids, they are capable of shapeshifting, and have recently been studying with the cenarion circle.)

    ---Horde---

    Orcs:Green orcs
    Mag'har (Shaman, Hunter, Warrior, Mage, Monk, Rogue)
    Blackrock/Dragonmaw (Same as green orcs, they blackrocks get tattoos)

    Trolls: Darkspear
    Revantusk (I don't know if they should implement bulkier trolls, but this tribe makes sense, same classes)

    Tauren: Grimtotem (Rogues, Mages, Warlock, Warrior, Hunter, Facial tattoos)

    Goblins: Just bilgewater.

    Forsaken: Lordaeron/Gilnean (Same classes, plus paladin)
    High Elven (Same classes, softer decay and upright pose, elven ears, blue eyes)

    Blood Elves: They stay the same.

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    No they drank it willingly. They weren't unwilling slaves like the Lich King. They just brainlessly went along with it. They weren't under any spell of the Burning Legion, they drank demon's blood willingly. There was no spell. The Satyr wanted acceptance yes but it's one out of many and Fel Elune intervened and morphed him into a Night Elf again so no your arguments don't fly.

    Most of these I see is "JUSt CAUSE" and try and bend the lore to their will. Fel Orcs SHOULD NEVER be on the Horde. The same goes with Fel Blood Elves. Same goes for Man'ari Eredar on the Alliance. Some of the other races will just be left out because of how the lore is designed.

    I can give a list in a few minutes for all the races. It just will take awhile and maybe if Shoc is bored I'll force him to do it. (Sarcasm).

    It shouldn't. Fel is a NO NO for the Orcs, No ifs ands or buts.
    I don't really like Felblood Elves but I just don't agree with how rigid these "rules" are, especially with the precedents in the story. Sindorei in the Horde all have green glowing eyes from willingly using fel to sate their addiction. They're just addicts who chose addiction to something vile rather than being honorable and dying a noble death.

    Rahjak seems to be feared and respected by the Horde and the random people's of Azeroth. Chaos Orcs I like, and want to have as an option.
    Plenty of ifs ands and buts there. But there should be good in game explanations, and they wouldn't need to be far fetched.


    Firstly I don't think every single race in the game should get ethnic sub races just in the name of token balance, but this lore is flled with many interesting angles the fans of the lore and roleplayers should be allowed to explore if done so with taste and tact. Just because there will be a lot of people with no idea about the lore in this game using them and role players who make the most terrible indulgent crimes against "playing fair" in role playing you can make, doesn't mean they should be deprived. Ignore lists exist for a reason, as does choosing what you pay attention to and what you ignore personally.

    The Horde is founded on races who did unthinkable things and now seek to redeem themselves or simply move on with their lives and try to be better for it.
    They accepted the living dead into their ranks. The Orcs carry the shame of Mannoroth's blood still staining their skin green. The Dragonmaw tortured Alexstrasza and terrorized the world. Saurfang slayed children and is a Blackrock orc.

    I don't think anybody is changing anybody's mind here. Just my 2 cents. I understand why you're adamantly opposed, but I politely disagree.

    I think felbloods look rather silly, but that can be altered. They also feel more over the top to me than the other examples. I don't much care for the idea and they seem a rather weak option when we could have Forsaken Blood Elves instead or something I personally find more interesting.

    And I have a lot of rigid hang ups myself over class and race combos and certain subraces, but when it comes down to it you find members of every race in this game in the cults and pirates and bandit gangs, and you find mercenaries in the Horde and Alliance of races usually part of the race war we're perpetuating. It's just not a cut and dry issue.

    But I enjoy debating it.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-01-26 at 09:14 PM.
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  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    I get what you mean now, unfortunately I think sub-race skins becoming purchasable on the store as bonus customization options would be the most likely way to see this implemented. I doubt Blizzard would add sub-races in "just because", they would probably sell them on the store or make them a selling point of a content patch or expansion. Personally, I wouldn't mind them being added to the store, they'd be a massively popular product for sure.
    I figured making them purchasable is the only way we'll see subrace skins. It's a niche demand for rabid lore fanboys where I'm guessing the crossover of "people who want them" and "people who are willing to pay for them" is near 100% (myself included). Knowing that charging for them will only make them more exclusive, and thus more attractive to the audience that already wants them, and Blizzard would be fools to make them free.

  4. #1004
    Quote Originally Posted by Areto View Post
    Maybe the chin/jaw should be a but slimmer? Love her eyes and her "noble/highborne" look. :>
    That's what I was thinking, but I thought the dumpy human would alter the narrow features of the elves. I experimented with several looks, but then I just got visual fatigue and put it away for another day.

    Her strong chin was something I wanted to keep her from looking too elvish, but I think the human would give way to the higher cheek bones. But yeah, I definitely gave her a strong chin. But she inherited it from her father, who's the spitting image of Varian Wrynn. (lol)
    I was mostly thinking of the silly fan fiction about Varian and Valeera. I dont care for it, but Rhonin and Turalyon have been there and done that. Kind of a tongue in cheek joke on tacky fan fiction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    I figured making them purchasable is the only way we'll see subrace skins. It's a niche demand for rabid lore fanboys where I'm guessing the crossover of "people who want them" and "people who are willing to pay for them" is near 100% (myself included). Knowing that charging for them will only make them more exclusive, and thus more attractive to the audience that already wants them, and Blizzard would be fools to make them free.
    Oh I absolutely disagree. Blizzard are big fans of their lore and have been personally desiring to do this for years. It's been talked about for 9 years in hundred page threads the world over. Ghostcrawler talking about it being a fun way to maybe create new quests in the game you do in order to unlock them.

    I think the recent in game store and the level 90 thing has people far too sensitive and fretting over everything becoming some kind of cash fuel milking of the fanbase. Pandaren were give away for free.

    I think this is an extremely unfortunate and jaded cynical attitude spreading around, and it's really in my opinion not deserved or warranted. One of the biggest regrets for 9 years in dev interviews they lament are graphical limitations and options they'd like to expand on some day.

    At most, character re-customizations may not be free. But they would be fools I think to dare hold this for ransom, and I think they're more generous and passionate about their game than that.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-01-27 at 12:02 AM.
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  5. #1005
    I meant no cynicism in my opinion Yig. I don't believe Blizzard is always out to fleece their customers. My favorite mount in still the updated gryphon we got in 5.1; a mount they could have easily put in the store but didn't.

    I still maintain everything I said earlier makes the most financial sense without hurting relations with their customers. Those who don't care about sub races won't buy them, and those who do care will not only not mind buying them but enjoy the exclusivity. Earlier desires from the Devs of unlocking races and quests are just pipe dreams that consume precious resources that only make getting sub race skins less and less likely. I will pay them to skip all that crap, and just enable the skin in character creation that they already made for NPCs.

  6. #1006
    Those mounts How are they not in the game!?=!?!?!!=!=!=!!=!)!!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?

  7. #1007
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Eredar are already Draenei in the flesh, just the original race. Man'ari Eredar are just demonic versions of their former Draenei brothers and sisters. So NO, some of the races are going to be left out. Fel Orcs should not be a part of the Horde. They are the hardcore versions and are enemies. The same goes with Fel Blood Elves. Those Blood Elves are the Blood Elf equiv of Fel Orcs. They are damned. Bringing them into the Horde would be hypocritical and would only bring the Orcish storyline backwards all over again.

    Why do you think the Horde smacked Mo'ghor out from leading the Dragonmaw? Because he's a Fel Orc that is up to nothing but trouble. Fel Blood Elves were going to summon Kil'Jaeden. Heck even Fel Orcs eventually would fight amongst themselves. If the Horde wants to move forward, they need to abandon the demon blood. Sure there is always going to be Orc Warlocks but they aren't necessarily(Until suddenly Pandaria for some reason that I cannot explain). Blood Elves had to siphon Fel energy to survive. Yes there are Blood Elf Warlocks and are more known HOWEVER they are small and not a big majority. If the Horde again wants to continue and progress they need to put it behind. NOT regress over and over.

    That is my argument. Yes we see supposed Fel Orcs at the Dark Portal but that is literally the only place and it makes absolutely no sense. I am betting a lot it was a error(A very LOLWAT) error.

    If we're talking about Sub races. Some of them are going to have options others won't. I think the easiest is Dwarves for obvious reasons. I'll get to that. Let me make a list.




    Humans- Azotha(Even though I'm not fond of this idea)- High Elves?(Possibly but not necessarily needed), Gilnean Human(You get the starter armor of Gilneans, their voices and such)
    Dwarves- Wildhammer,Dark Iron(Earthen? I mean they are allied with us so it is possible. The only issue is the lack of a female Earthen model)
    Night Elves- Highborne( This one is also theoretical and I have a hard time thinking what differences so I might need help for that), High Elves(This is the other option I had in mind to include High Elves)
    Gnomes- ????(I have no freaking clue, leper gnomes don't seem very nice so...yeah)
    Draenei- Broken(They won't be able to play as a Paladin but they can try and be a Nobundo or that shaman dude from Vash'ir)
    Worgen- Stormwind/Lordaeron human form(Essentially have the voices of a Stormwind/Lordaeron human in true form)

    Orcs- Mag'har(What we all wanted in the end Amirite?), Dragonmaw(Dragonmaw Orcs are still around yah?), Blackrock( Ma'korok without the shitty attitude)
    Tauren- Taunka(Those guys from Northrend), Grimtotem( Those that left Magatha), Yaungol may not be possible at all sorry.
    Trolls- Non Hunched Trolls(This might be interesting but not necessarily a sub race), Zandalari rebels(Basically you look like a Zandalari troll of sorts. Possible), Other Troll tribes that abandon their dark ways(Gurubashi etc etc)
    Undead- Undead High/Blood Elf( If we see those Dark Rangers around, why not be able to be one?) No more that I can think of
    Blood Elves- ????????NO NO FEL ELVES. I told you this already. If someone has another idea say it.
    Goblin- Yeah I'm out of ideas here.......
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  8. #1008
    Dreadlord Silver-Fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Scratch Felbloods, they are probably too far gone to be redeemed at this point. I propose Half Elves for Blood Elves, meaning that there will be Half Elf-Humans on the Horde. Would that make sense? I would understand if there were a ton of Blood Elf players that would want to RP as Half Elves
    Half-Elves would make more sense being a sub-race under humans on the Alliance since in the Sunwell Trilogy, the Manga that featured the remnants of Quel'thalas post invasion, we that blood elves disregard Half-Elves as mongrels. Such when Lor'themar Theron states to Kalec before he realizes he's actually a dragon that 'a Half-blood's words mean nothing" which leads me to believe that Blood Elves view half-elves just like humans.

    I'm hoping with the character revamp that we possibly get a face option for humans that plays just closely enough to imagine that we're playing a half-elf. I just think right now that the idea is a little far fetched since I think Blizzard is less interested in hybrids then say Dark Iron dwarves.
    Last edited by Silver-Fox; 2014-01-26 at 10:13 PM.

  9. #1009
    Warchief Thaladhrun's Avatar
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    Yup, as I said earlier, it is very unlikely they would suffer a fate different to that of the felbloods. Perhaps even worse. They have never been popular with the parents of either race,

    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    Personally though I find half elves really boring.
    Makes two of us. TBH, I don't mind too much if humans get an option like that, provided it doesn't come at the exclusion of more interesting things, like human ethnicities, but again I don't see why one particular half-breed race should be singled out for special treatment. A high elf subrace in some shape or form, I'd be happy with, but not necessarily for humans.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Eredar are already Draenei in the flesh, just the original race. Man'ari Eredar are just demonic versions of their former Draenei brothers and sisters. So NO, some of the races are going to be left out. Fel Orcs should not be a part of the Horde. They are the hardcore versions and are enemies. The same goes with Fel Blood Elves. Those Blood Elves are the Blood Elf equiv of Fel Orcs. They are damned. Bringing them into the Horde would be hypocritical and would only bring the Orcish storyline backwards all over again.
    The Man'ari are not 'just' demonic versions of the draenei. Moreover, it is the Draenei who are Eredar and not vice versa. The Man'ari are orders of magnitude more powerful, particularly if you refer to the WRPG's monster manuals which describe them. This, plus their command over the Burning Legion, is why they're not suitable for a playable race, much like with dragons. It's not to do with fel, per se.

    There's nothing to suggest a Warlock is inevitably bound to servitude to the Legion, nor anything to suggest a felblood would be, either. Illidan himself never fell to the Legion's control, in spite of how much fel he had consumed. Demonology Warlocks already implement, to a lesser degree, the sort of transformation the felbloods aim for. I'm not too keen on fel orcs but there's little lore stopping them from being a playable option. Again, it doesn't mean they need to be welcomed with open arms, or at all. However, the fact that Warlocks are already playable militates against the notion that felbloods or fel orcs are out of the cards. This is a matter of degree, not principle. I am very much someone who is in favour of restricting certain races and race/class combinations (for reasons like the power of the Eredar) but on this front, there's little issue. Regarding their look, I would imagine it'd be adjusted to the new BE models and like Yig said it could be modified.

    Why do you think the Horde smacked Mo'ghor out from leading the Dragonmaw? Because he's a Fel Orc that is up to nothing but trouble. Fel Blood Elves were going to summon Kil'Jaeden. Heck even Fel Orcs eventually would fight amongst themselves. If the Horde wants to move forward, they need to abandon the demon blood. Sure there is always going to be Orc Warlocks but they aren't necessarily(Until suddenly Pandaria for some reason that I cannot explain). Blood Elves had to siphon Fel energy to survive. Yes there are Blood Elf Warlocks and are more known HOWEVER they are small and not a big majority. If the Horde again wants to continue and progress they need to put it behind. NOT regress over and over.
    They're unlikely to be a majority but beyond that, we don't know their numbers. There's little to suggest that fel, when controlled, implies 'regression', although it does imply a change in form. Whether that is undesirable or not is in the eyes of the beholder (or shall I say Observer, for WoW. )

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    They're just addicts who chose addiction to something vile rather than being honorable and dying a noble death.
    Very few sentient beings will choose to terminate themselves or just die; it goes against their every biological imperative. There is little honourable in dying when it can be prevented. I think they were pretty brave to experiment with a substance their ancestors had once tried and failed to control. Feralas tells their tale quite well.

    That's what I was thinking, but I thought the dumpy human would alter the narrow features of the elves. I experimented with several looks, but then I just got visual fatigue and put it away for another day.

    Her strong chin was something I wanted to keep her from looking too elvish, but I think the human would give way to the higher cheek bones. But yeah, I definitely gave her a strong chin.
    I don't think it necessarily accomplishes that. A broad chin, maybe, but blood/high/night elves have strong, angular chins (often square, even.) The males, anyway. The females do tend to have pointier ones, much like female humans have rounder faces. So if anything, it's an intermediate between roundness and angularity that would be a midpoint between the two races for the females. Not that I care much for half-elves, but the cheekbones and ears alone would set her apart from the human face.
    Last edited by Thaladhrun; 2014-01-26 at 11:06 PM.
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  10. #1010
    Pandaren Monk shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Fox View Post
    Half-Elves would make more sense being a sub-race under humans on the Alliance since in the Sunwell Trilogy, the Manga that featured the remnants of Quel'thalas post invasion, we that blood elves disregard Half-Elves as mongrels. Such when Lor'themar Theron states to Kalec before he realizes he's actually a dragon that 'a Half-blood's words mean nothing" which leads me to believe that Blood Elves view half-elves just like humans.

    I'm hoping with the character revamp that we possibly get a face option for humans that plays just closely enough to imagine that we're playing a half-elf. I just think right now that the idea is a little far fetched since I think Blizzard is less interested in hybrids then say Dark Iron dwarves.
    Yeah, I'm not too well versed in the Manga or novels so thanks for bringing up that Half-Elves aren't well regarded by the Blood Elves. Even more a reason to give the Half-Elves to the Humans though.

    So far, the only Blood Elf Sub-Race that really makes sense are the San'layn, who could just as easily reintegrate with the Horde via Sylvanas as the Valkyr did. With the Lich King and Blood Queen dead, they are really kind of homeless, and since they were bent to obey the Lich King by will they are most likely back to normal now that their free will is restored.

    Perhaps they could incorporate some sort of Post-Sunwell Restoration Blood Elf? Or a Dark Ranger separate from the San'layn? I would bet Blizzard could make a million dollars alone on RP'ers wanting to RP as Dark Rangers.
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  11. #1011
    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    I meant no cynicism in my opinion Yig. I don't believe Blizzard is always out to fleece their customers. My favorite mount in still the updated gryphon we got in 5.1; a mount they could have easily put in the store but didn't.

    I still maintain everything I said earlier makes the most financial sense without hurting relations with their customers. Those who don't care about sub races won't buy them, and those who do care will not only not mind buying them but enjoy the exclusivity. Earlier desires from the Devs of unlocking races and quests are just pipe dreams that consume precious resources that only make getting sub race skins less and less likely. I will pay them to skip all that crap, and just enable the skin in character creation that they already made for NPCs.
    I wasn't accusing you of open rampant cynicism, more so that I'm seeing people normally understanding and fair towards Blizzard becoming prone to a growing subconscious shift of subtle tone that is taking root in the attitudes even among the more well known proponents of Blizzard in these parts concerning Blizzard's hunger for monetary mini transactions becoming an ever growing threat.

    I didn't mean to imply you were jaded. But it's been less than a year since Ghostcrawler last talked about special quests for these things, or just giving them to us overnight without any explanation, or exploring "other options". Which I guess gives you room for your pessimism about this not being free.

    But Robinson already said in his "state of the union" address they are already making updated versions of Dark Irons and other things like Mag'har, so it's not something they're going out of their way to do. And it's still something I maintain they really would love to see in the game.

    I'm going to stick with my glass is half full on this one. I'm wary, and I get where you're coming from. And I'll bib up and eat crow if something ends up happening in the way you're thinking.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-01-27 at 12:48 AM.
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  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    I was tweaking your model for fun last night. I've been staring at it too long and I'm note sure if I like what I did or not.

    Personally though I find half elves really boring.
    Yikes... too much Elder Scrolls influence there. Her chin is massive too and her irises are too small for the size of the eyes. She is scaring me a teensy bit.

    Half Elves are boring, by default. They don't exactly look like elves aside from having slightly/smaller pointy ears. They are more firmly build than elves but still a little more elegant and graceful than their human counterpart. Smack some armor on and you don't really see the difference.
    However, I role play a half elf so I really won't mind having a model for it. If it doesn't happen then, welp... imagination is a good tool too.

  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Eredar are already Draenei in the flesh, just the original race. Man'ari Eredar are just demonic versions of their former Draenei brothers and sisters. So NO, some of the races are going to be left out. Fel Orcs should not be a part of the Horde. They are the hardcore versions and are enemies. The same goes with Fel Blood Elves. Those Blood Elves are the Blood Elf equiv of Fel Orcs. They are damned. Bringing them into the Horde would be hypocritical and would only bring the Orcish storyline backwards all over again.

    Why do you think the Horde smacked Mo'ghor out from leading the Dragonmaw? Because he's a Fel Orc that is up to nothing but trouble. Fel Blood Elves were going to summon Kil'Jaeden. Heck even Fel Orcs eventually would fight amongst themselves. If the Horde wants to move forward, they need to abandon the demon blood. Sure there is always going to be Orc Warlocks but they aren't necessarily(Until suddenly Pandaria for some reason that I cannot explain). Blood Elves had to siphon Fel energy to survive. Yes there are Blood Elf Warlocks and are more known HOWEVER they are small and not a big majority. If the Horde again wants to continue and progress they need to put it behind. NOT regress over and over.

    That is my argument. Yes we see supposed Fel Orcs at the Dark Portal but that is literally the only place and it makes absolutely no sense. I am betting a lot it was a error(A very LOLWAT) error.

    If we're talking about Sub races. Some of them are going to have options others won't. I think the easiest is Dwarves for obvious reasons. I'll get to that. Let me make a list.




    Humans- Azotha(Even though I'm not fond of this idea)- High Elves?(Possibly but not necessarily needed), Gilnean Human(You get the starter armor of Gilneans, their voices and such)
    Dwarves- Wildhammer,Dark Iron(Earthen? I mean they are allied with us so it is possible. The only issue is the lack of a female Earthen model)
    Night Elves- Highborne( This one is also theoretical and I have a hard time thinking what differences so I might need help for that), High Elves(This is the other option I had in mind to include High Elves)
    Gnomes- ????(I have no freaking clue, leper gnomes don't seem very nice so...yeah)
    Draenei- Broken(They won't be able to play as a Paladin but they can try and be a Nobundo or that shaman dude from Vash'ir)
    Worgen- Stormwind/Lordaeron human form(Essentially have the voices of a Stormwind/Lordaeron human in true form)

    Orcs- Mag'har(What we all wanted in the end Amirite?), Dragonmaw(Dragonmaw Orcs are still around yah?), Blackrock( Ma'korok without the shitty attitude)
    Tauren- Taunka(Those guys from Northrend), Grimtotem( Those that left Magatha), Yaungol may not be possible at all sorry.
    Trolls- Non Hunched Trolls(This might be interesting but not necessarily a sub race), Zandalari rebels(Basically you look like a Zandalari troll of sorts. Possible), Other Troll tribes that abandon their dark ways(Gurubashi etc etc)
    Undead- Undead High/Blood Elf( If we see those Dark Rangers around, why not be able to be one?) No more that I can think of
    Blood Elves- ????????NO NO FEL ELVES. I told you this already. If someone has another idea say it.
    Goblin- Yeah I'm out of ideas here.......
    My take on this is that we're going to be rare exceptions, like the Worgen. And Ereder? I am not going to touch that. I don't think Ereder would qualify. We can find common ground there.

    Fel orcs in Outland now are without direction and I assumed those with red skin, chaos orcs, are now capable of free will after we've slain all their Pit Lords and chieftains. I don't see them joining the Horde as progressing the Horde towards more and more demonic qualities, but rather allowing the few remnants left over from what we shattered to slink back into the tribe with their tails between their legs, and they will soon be bred out of existence, their fel traits regressing with each generation.

    I like the idea of special quests and strong stories to experience to give these things room. Deathknights needed a lot to explain their inclusion. I'm advocating similar scale there. But "special snow flake" syndrome is a canard in role playing communities, and taboo for how tacky it's capable of easily becoming in the hands of someone without, let's call it, tact. This is shakey ground, but I don't want to rule things out.

    In my world, I'd like to see Forsaken Blood Elves like the Dark Rangers, basically white skin and red eyes. For Forsaken I'd like Vrykul, about as tall as Tauren. But in many ways I feel this is indulgent and not every race should get their token option in the name of balance.

    And I'd like to see red skinned orcs like those around the Dark Portal, who are seeking to redeem themselves and join the movement in their race's only real option for growth and progress and prosperity in the future.

    Someone was objecting to Mag'har as if they needed a "deus ex" here as I recall which just made me confused and annoyed.
    Mag'har are all over Orgrimmar at the moment as soldiers in Garrosh's special forces, and I imagine the moment Thrall established contact with Nagrand, just as people in the United States the country over flock to Manhattan and Los Angeles, Mag'har from Outland with wanderlust would have been setting out for Orgrimmar now for something like 6 years.

    I think lorewise we've got Alliance and Horde military presences in Northrend and Outland just as the United States has bases in every continent on the Earth or nearby, along with trade and finance and resources creating an infrastructure of merchant caravans in constant need of protection in Azeroth's dangerous world. We've also got settlers in Northrend needing protection, all this giving rise to a bustling network of trade routes and infrastructure which centralized around Durotar and Elwynn Forest as hubs.

    I see the few remaining chaos orcs in a similar light as Mag'har, as I said above, they are now left without direction and can offer a lot of strength and probably desire to belong to something. Full on Fel Orcs I think lack the self control, but Chaos Orcs, I just favor them fondly for their strong visual identity.

    But I also love demon hunter and blade master lore, and Rahjak's story of corrupting himself in an effort to experience the most poetic and profoundly beautiful moment in life one can seek as a student in the art of war. Demon Hunters fight fire with fire, and are maligned in Night Elf society, but Warcraft 3 shows they are used in military campaigns and tolerated on the fringes of society, left alone if they stick to their side of the tracks, and called into the ranks when needed. Kind of like the 1970s and the American attitude towards Vietnam veterans. I think that's a good analogy for chaos orcs too.

    So a special quest for an orc or elf, whatever examples are needed, with some good character development would be welcome to me.

    Fel blood seem too much for me, it's interesting to see the gamut of opinions here and what we all will or will not accept and why. I enjoy the conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Fox View Post
    Half-Elves would make more sense being a sub-race under humans on the Alliance since in the Sunwell Trilogy, the Manga that featured the remnants of Quel'thalas post invasion, we that blood elves disregard Half-Elves as mongrels. Such when Lor'themar Theron states to Kalec before he realizes he's actually a dragon that 'a Half-blood's words mean nothing" which leads me to believe that Blood Elves view half-elves just like humans.

    I'm hoping with the character revamp that we possibly get a face option for humans that plays just closely enough to imagine that we're playing a half-elf. I just think right now that the idea is a little far fetched since I think Blizzard is less interested in hybrids then say Dark Iron dwarves.
    Yes, and Turalyon's son in Hellfire. And Alleria and Rhonin. And Vereesa and Turalyon. OMG I called Valeera Vereesa I just realized in my half elf post above, whoops. I'm going to edit that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Yeah, I'm not too well versed in the Manga or novels so thanks for bringing up that Half-Elves aren't well regarded by the Blood Elves. Even more a reason to give the Half-Elves to the Humans though.

    So far, the only Blood Elf Sub-Race that really makes sense are the San'layn, who could just as easily reintegrate with the Horde via Sylvanas as the Valkyr did. With the Lich King and Blood Queen dead, they are really kind of homeless, and since they were bent to obey the Lich King by will they are most likely back to normal now that their free will is restored.

    Perhaps they could incorporate some sort of Post-Sunwell Restoration Blood Elf? Or a Dark Ranger separate from the San'layn? I would bet Blizzard could make a million dollars alone on RP'ers wanting to RP as Dark Rangers.
    I'd love High Elves to be on the Alliance as in so many ways they were iconic to the Gold and Blue as Bald Eagles to the red white and blue, and I just want to see them with a totally different stance and animation set possible thatn what the Blood Elven Sin'dorei have, but I know it would never happen barring a miracle. But I'd like to see them in the Alliance, and the only way I see that is for them to be an option for Night Elves. Perhaps now after a decade of intermingling with the Alliance, the Kaldorei have come to welcome their Queldorei cousins home if they so wish it, as the Shen'Dralar have been permitted. In Warcraft 3 when Tyrande encountered Kael'thas, she was not angry or even threatened, she seemed almost just surprised to see her long lost cousins after 10 centuries, and they quickly cooperated with each other. Furion's intolerance at Dath'remar's disobedience ten centuries ago I think is an element in Kaldorei society analogous to same sex marriage in American society, and that was before the Night Elves allowed humans and dwarves and gnomes to live in their sacred groves and fight side by side as brothers and sisters in Warsong Gulch. Druids and Wardens probably have the most prejudice in this area, but the Queldorei of the Silverwing Refuge I think would be welcomed back to the forested slops of Hyjal and the boughs of Teldrassil as long lost cousins and allies to aid in the efforts there of the Draenei and Kaldorei and Worgen.


    They'd make Kaldorei society that much more interesting. I'd love to see Darnassus with it's Worgen disctrict (tree) also get a Dranei disctrict and further following that logic a nook for the Silverwing Refuge who would choose it over Stormwind or Dalaran and the remaining High Elves that turned from the path of Kael'thas.

    Blood Elves I'd like to see Forsaken skins for, as the two share a relationship now in many ways similar to the UK and the USA with Sylvanas directly linking their capitols with portal magic and the Dark Lady being a former ranger.


    But I also do not want to accept in any way the NPC models and skins which predate the coming updates being used as options. Making this even less likely in my mind as happening. The majority of these are just going to take a lot of work, but Blizzard is going way out of their way on this project I think, with tattoos, hair cuts, beards, ornamentation, I can't wait to see the naysayer's eat crow. Even though they'll just hide in the shadows like every person in the world who said Pandaren were impossible to ever implement that argued with me for 8 years on that. Eat that, Pandaren haters! Thar's me hammer.

    When it comes down to the topic at hand here, I see with unwavering confidence Dark Irons and Mag'har and Wildhammers being a 99% certainty and inevitable.

    I also realistically see Orcs getting the option to keep this posture while standing in a neutral stance. And I hope to Aman'thul Robinson's wishlist is granted in this regard.


    Look at that magnificent orc with that appropriate posture. Just look at him. Who's a good orc? Who's a good-good orcy? Down boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodovica View Post
    Yikes... too much Elder Scrolls influence there. Her chin is massive too and her irises are too small for the size of the eyes. She is scaring me a teensy bit.

    Half Elves are boring, by default. They don't exactly look like elves aside from having slightly/smaller pointy ears. They are more firmly build than elves but still a little more elegant and graceful than their human counterpart. Smack some armor on and you don't really see the difference.
    However, I role play a half elf so I really won't mind having a model for it. If it doesn't happen then, welp... imagination is a good tool too.
    Oh, the irises I very much intended to be that way and were rendered so on purpose, to give the elven stock their alien and sinister look, which Warcraft's elves have (not pupils but a sinister alien quality). And I like to highlight that as much as I can possibly get a chance to.


    And as I said, the chin is something I think when imagining dominant genetic traits and regressive features that would manifest over the delicate feature of an elf, where as the elven cheek bones are so strong they would be more dominant in the hybrid, along with even shorter ears than Shoc's.

    I like my Warcraft humans over the top. And I like my elves alien and scary. So your opinion is perfectly understandable. And I take it as a compliment more than constructive criticism.

    Especially as she is a tongue in cheek joke on the whole Varian/Vareesa love affair, and Varian's known for his chin. Just think of her as Anduin's half sister.
    :::: ) <--- that's a happy arachnid nerubian face

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    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Yeah, I'm not too well versed in the Manga or novels so thanks for bringing up that Half-Elves aren't well regarded by the Blood Elves. Even more a reason to give the Half-Elves to the Humans though.

    So far, the only Blood Elf Sub-Race that really makes sense are the San'layn, who could just as easily reintegrate with the Horde via Sylvanas as the Valkyr did. With the Lich King and Blood Queen dead, they are really kind of homeless, and since they were bent to obey the Lich King by will they are most likely back to normal now that their free will is restored.

    Perhaps they could incorporate some sort of Post-Sunwell Restoration Blood Elf? Or a Dark Ranger separate from the San'layn? I would bet Blizzard could make a million dollars alone on RP'ers wanting to RP as Dark Rangers.
    I don't think San'layn are possible, as much as they are soooo fucking cool. They were very few in number and they are cannibalistic vampires in that they eat other sentient beings. They don't just suck your blood and suck your mana, they eat your flesh and bones RAW. Which is Warcraft's way of putting their own bad ass touch on the vampire trope. I don't seem them being able to settle for steak and mutton. At best, I think Bolvar either hunted them all down, or has them somehow in his service or imprisoned.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-01-27 at 01:20 AM.
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  14. #1014
    Pandaren Monk shoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    I don't thin San'layn are possible as much as they are soooo fucking cool. They were very few in number and they are cannibalistic vampires. They don't just suck your blood and suck your mana, they eat your flesh and bones. Which is Warcraft's way of putting their own bad ass touch on the vampire trope.
    I don't seem them being able to settle for steak and mutton. At best, I think Bolvar either hunted them all down, or has them somehow in his service or imprisoned.
    I'd say San'layn are one of the more realistic Sub-Races for the Blood Elves. The story behind them just screams "redeem meeee". Basically, Lana'thel and a large number of Blood Elves joined Kael'thas to destroy the Frozen Throne, unbeknownst to them that Kael was secretly working for Kil'jaeden. It was a noble mission, Blood Elves following their Prince to destroy the dude who destroyed their homeland. Arthas, being the douche that he is, transformed Kael's Blood Elves into the San'layn. Their story is no different than that of the playable Death Knights, and now that the Lich King is dead, most if not all of the remaining Darkfallen are free from his grasp. We also know that the Darkfallen curse of vampirism can be "gifted" to other creatures, a la Blood Queen encounter.

    It's also very likely for Sylvanas to adopt the San'layn into her Forsaken, as she can relate to them. Plus, it won't be the first time she adopted the Lich King's ex-servants into her faction, the Val'kyr played a major plot point in Cataclysm. The San'layn joining the Forsaken as a playable Blood-Elf sub-race would also be a huge source of tension and lore between Sylvanas and Lor'themar. Not to mention they are so heavily role played that they are notorious in RP communities, see San'lame.
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  15. #1015
    Blademaster Shadowtwili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Long Post....
    you are doing exactly the same you called other people out on, bending the Lore to make your own view of how it should be fit.

    I will refer to Thaladhrun's post since he explains it very simple and clear how they could be implemented.

    Also the Horde "smacked" Mo'ghor out of leading the Dragonmaw because he was unwilling to negotiate with the Horde for use of his city, not because OMG FEL ORC KILL IT, hell, Mo'ghor even killed the Orcish Ambassador Garrosh send to negotiate. Also, Green Orcs fight amongst themselves to, as do the Mag'har Orcs, yet you say the Horde is taking a step back by allowing such Orcs into the Horde.....

    And in Vanilla it was explained why the Orcish Warlocks where necassery for the Horde military, because the Horde is lacking might in all departements, from numbers, to technology to magical might, thus they allowed the Orcish Warlocks to stay with the Horde and serve the Horde, but hey, I'm sure they all got lynched the moment they sat foot in the city because Fel is a big no-no for the Orcs (while Thrall, the Shaman-Warchief of the Horde, allowed the Warlocks to continue in the Horde).

    The Sin'dorei did not need Fel Energy to survive, they needed it for the power boost, but they did not need it to survive, how else do you explain the continued survival of the Quel'dorei?

    And you say the Fel Orcs at the Dark Portal makes no sense, yet Blizzard has had dozens of chances to turn them back into green/brown/black Orcs, but never did, so for all we know Blizzard planned that, even if you're certain they did not.

    PS. I do not think the San'layn are a realistic subrace for the Sin'dorei, I mean if they are allowed to rejoin the Sin'dorei, what is stopping all the Dark Rangers and Forsaken High Elves from leaving Sylvanas and returning to their home? Especially those that might've been freed after the Lich King's death, or those that never felt any loyalty to Sylvanas to begin with.

    Still getting the hang of these forums, btw! since this was double posted :S

  16. #1016
    I would love it. But no "Undead elves" PLEASE NO! NO NOOOOOOOO!

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    I'd say San'layn are one of the more realistic Sub-Races for the Blood Elves. The story behind them just screams "redeem meeee". Basically, Lana'thel and a large number of Blood Elves joined Kael'thas to destroy the Frozen Throne, unbeknownst to them that Kael was secretly working for Kil'jaeden. It was a noble mission, Blood Elves following their Prince to destroy the dude who destroyed their homeland. Arthas, being the douche that he is, transformed Kael's Blood Elves into the San'layn. Their story is no different than that of the playable Death Knights, and now that the Lich King is dead, most if not all of the remaining Darkfallen are free from his grasp. We also know that the Darkfallen curse of vampirism can be "gifted" to other creatures, a la Blood Queen encounter.

    It's also very likely for Sylvanas to adopt the San'layn into her Forsaken, as she can relate to them. Plus, it won't be the first time she adopted the Lich King's ex-servants into her faction, the Val'kyr played a major plot point in Cataclysm. The San'layn joining the Forsaken as a playable Blood-Elf sub-race would also be a huge source of tension and lore between Sylvanas and Lor'themar. Not to mention they are so heavily role played that they are notorious in RP communities, see San'lame.
    Hm, I can see this being more realistic. Still, they were so few. But I've never let that really deter me from arguing for a player race or customization option.
    And I agree Sylvanas would totally make use of them as she did the Val'kyr as her angels of death, but I'm not so sure they can shirk the vampirism, I saw that gift as spreading it. Like the Deathknights have the compulsion to inflict pain and suffering and death daily else they go into physical pain, perhaps the San'layn will spend a lot of time in the Plaguelands trying to find people they feel deserve to be eaten. Cult of the Damned members perhaps, if they have a remnant. The Forsaken cannibalize racial animation would look awesome if they tweaked it for San'layn, maybe a long string of gristle snapping off stuck in their teeth ala spaghetti they slurp up. Yum.

    These things and more, tonight,.... on the MMO Champion forum discussions,....

    Not only do I love this painting from one of my favorite artists Jim Murray:

    But I love San'layn models from WOTLK, and the concept art int he WOTLK collector's book had that awesome San'layn melee fighter wearing masks all along his arms,...which it looks like I'm going to have to scan myself as it's nowhere to be found with Google.

    It's a shame they've earned such a place in the tacky role playing hall of fame.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nessomik View Post
    I would love it. But no "Undead elves" PLEASE NO! NO NOOOOOOOO!
    Why the fuck not? There are undead elves all over the lore. We already have custom undead elven deathnight skins.
    The last thing we need are uppity lore police weary of the rule of cool here lamenting over tired cliches and tacky role playing options.

    It's not like we're asking to be able to be pregnant too. OH WOW! PREGNANT SUB RACES FOR ALL! AWESEOME! I can't believe I didn't think of that,...


    srsly tho, Why? Also: You would love what? Sub races?

    P.S. Welcome to the forums, and don't mind me. I get uppity and manic.
    Last edited by Yig; 2014-01-27 at 03:28 AM.
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  18. #1018
    i just really hope tattoos make it in. would love to have some cool tattoos on my face like the felblood have or maybe some arm/chest tattoos like demon hunters.

    although since most armor isnt very revealing we may end up only getting face tattoos since blizzard may not think making tattoos would be worth the dev time

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    Someone was objecting to Mag'har as if they needed a "deus ex" here as I recall which just made me confused and annoyed..
    i meant deus ex for if we get them from quests.

    say you are a green orc who wants to play as a brown orc.

    you do a quest and somehow you are brown now. doesnt make sense.

    thats what i meant. not that brown orcs would need a deus ex machina to be playable in general
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  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Yeah, I'm not too well versed in the Manga or novels so thanks for bringing up that Half-Elves aren't well regarded by the Blood Elves. Even more a reason to give the Half-Elves to the Humans though.

    So far, the only Blood Elf Sub-Race that really makes sense are the San'layn, who could just as easily reintegrate with the Horde via Sylvanas as the Valkyr did. With the Lich King and Blood Queen dead, they are really kind of homeless, and since they were bent to obey the Lich King by will they are most likely back to normal now that their free will is restored.

    Perhaps they could incorporate some sort of Post-Sunwell Restoration Blood Elf? Or a Dark Ranger separate from the San'layn? I would bet Blizzard could make a million dollars alone on RP'ers wanting to RP as Dark Rangers.
    the San'layn are evil and cannibals. they should be sub-race of the forsaken because they are Evil and cannibals

  20. #1020
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    you are doing exactly the same you called other people out on, bending the Lore to make your own view of how it should be fit.

    I will refer to Thaladhrun's post since he explains it very simple and clear how they could be implemented.

    Also the Horde "smacked" Mo'ghor out of leading the Dragonmaw because he was unwilling to negotiate with the Horde for use of his city, not because OMG FEL ORC KILL IT, hell, Mo'ghor even killed the Orcish Ambassador Garrosh send to negotiate. Also, Green Orcs fight amongst themselves to, as do the Mag'har Orcs, yet you say the Horde is taking a step back by allowing such Orcs into the Horde.....

    And in Vanilla it was explained why the Orcish Warlocks where necassery for the Horde military, because the Horde is lacking might in all departements, from numbers, to technology to magical might, thus they allowed the Orcish Warlocks to stay with the Horde and serve the Horde, but hey, I'm sure they all got lynched the moment they sat foot in the city because Fel is a big no-no for the Orcs (while Thrall, the Shaman-Warchief of the Horde, allowed the Warlocks to continue in the Horde).

    The Sin'dorei did not need Fel Energy to survive, they needed it for the power boost, but they did not need it to survive, how else do you explain the continued survival of the Quel'dorei?

    And you say the Fel Orcs at the Dark Portal makes no sense, yet Blizzard has had dozens of chances to turn them back into green/brown/black Orcs, but never did, so for all we know Blizzard planned that, even if you're certain they did not.

    PS. I do not think the San'layn are a realistic subrace for the Sin'dorei, I mean if they are allowed to rejoin the Sin'dorei, what is stopping all the Dark Rangers and Forsaken High Elves from leaving Sylvanas and returning to their home? Especially those that might've been freed after the Lich King's death, or those that never felt any loyalty to Sylvanas to begin with.

    Still getting the hang of these forums, btw! since this was double posted :S
    I'm not bending the lore. I'm simply adhering to the lore that we have and I have reasons for it. Why else do you think I went on a rant about the Orc story progressing, so on and so forth. It wasn't just for fluff. I did it to emphasize reasoning why it shouldn't happen. As for the Blood Elves they NEEDED some type of energy source due to withdrawal from the destruction of the Sunwell(I almost called it Sinwell). So they resorted to demonic magic hence their green eyes. The Quel'dorei still exist because they went to other ways. They didn't use demonic ways thus Lor'themar kicked them out because he didn't want a divided nation(As his reasoning).

    They don't need to do that now because they have a Arcane/Holy Light Sunwell so they're fine. The Fel Orcs at the Portal is still likely an error that Blizzard still hasn't fixed. I can also say it isn't brought up because other things are forgotten(Draenei lore for x amount of years). So really I'm not bending the lore. I gave my reasons. Redundant yes but I did not make the long post up for shits and giggles.

    I'm not THAT bored.
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