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  1. #21
    Banned MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebmyers View Post
    How weird, we found everything upto baleroc easy to kill on hc progress, majordomo was easy too raggy was a pain but killed him eventually.
    We were an extremely strange guild. We were all from a raiding guild that collapsed in early ulduar, some of us went to raid elsewhere about 7 sat in this other. In Sept 2010 I joined the social guild as did a few others and we got like 8/12hc ICC in like 2-3 weeks but you would with the 30% buff. Come Cata I was still raid leading, first tier didn't go well but Firelands and DS we did decently well Got like a realm 5th Glory of the FL Raider and everything. Our heroic progress was Shannox -> Majorhomo -> Baleroc -> Rhyolith -> Beth -> Alys. To this day I still don't really know what happened in this 3 years we raided together, but it was good. Strange as fuck but good. One day we'd have some dps that would all be ranking then the next day (same players) everyone would do half the dps yet the boss appeared to die just as easily. So confuzzling.

  2. #22
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I didn't even know you had any choices at all in Siege O_O You can choose what boss you do after Malkorok?!

    I really do hope they make non-linear raids in the future; they've said as much for WoD but they said that before too. I don't mind having a requirement to kill all the bosses to unlock the final boss, but give some choice especially with large raids so if we are having trouble on Boss E, we can give Boss E or Boss G or boss H a couple of tries as well.
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  3. #23
    Banned MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I didn't even know you had any choices at all in Siege O_O You can choose what boss you do after Malkorok?!

    I really do hope they make non-linear raids in the future; they've said as much for WoD but they said that before too. I don't mind having a requirement to kill all the bosses to unlock the final boss, but give some choice especially with large raids so if we are having trouble on Boss E, we can give Boss E or Boss G or boss H a couple of tries as well.
    http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wowp...dry_layout.jpg

    Is this to your tastes?

    As far as I can tell, you know when you killed Deathbringer Saurfang in ICC and you went through the door? Similar thing to that. 3 wings, 3 bosses in each, then that final boss in the center. I don't mind this being a sort of "template" for a raid layout as long as it's not 3/3/3 each time. They got it right in Vanilla with Naxxramas and in WOTLK for Naxxramas, but people didn't really cotton on to how cool of an idea that is until after ICC. Naxx was 3/3/4/3-2. And that final bit was a nice addition. ICC was naxx but in reverse where you had linear bosses then wings.

    Long as they don't do it for every tier and overwork it then I think this is definitely a step in the right direction. Gogo Ion Hazzi-fuck-this-name, read mmoc. I don't know if you yourself would but I'm sure some of your peons in the office must, and I'm certain of that. No company would miss out on having access to feedback websites such as mmoc/wowhead.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    As for optional, well, we haven't had "optional" since Ulduar, pretty much. I do hope that next tiers will be more like Ulduar in terms of progression design.
    Not... really...

    Icecrown Citadel has three wings you can do in any order (and plague wing lets you choose to do Rotface or Festergut first).
    Ruby Sanctum lets you do the mini bosses in any order.
    Blackrock Descent lets you choose between Magmaw and Defense System first, then you can do any of the other bosses before Nefarian in any order.
    Firelands lets you do the first four bosses in any order.
    Dragon Soul lets you pick between Yor'sahj and General Zon'ozz.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    Wanna know why? the same reason there aren't optionals in heroics anymore "Hey can we do this boss, I need loot from him" "No, we want to get this done as fast as possible"
    At least seperate raid lockouts will remove this issue. No skipping hard bosses on Mythic.

    Not that any world class guilds did skip anything this tier. It was well balanced in a linear fashion. Unlike ToT where Horridon was a massive difficulty spike.

  5. #25
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    If they can do it right

    I actually really liked how Naxx (2.0 as that was the only version I saw) played out, as you had the wings with their own difficulties, so if you could work on one wing and if you were having trouble swap to a different wing, kill the easier first boss and do some progress on a later boss. I'm really surprised they didn't stick with that format, TBH.
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  6. #26
    Banned MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    If they can do it right

    I actually really liked how Naxx (2.0 as that was the only version I saw) played out, as you had the wings with their own difficulties, so if you could work on one wing and if you were having trouble swap to a different wing, kill the easier first boss and do some progress on a later boss. I'm really surprised they didn't stick with that format, TBH.
    I'm almost glad they didn't stick with it because then they'd need another idea. If we got used to that format then when we got sick of it, all hell would break loose when they gave us linear or smaller raids again, and the period of "I hate blizzard they're shit at raid creation" would have hurt the game a lot more than everything we've had the past 4-6 years.

    I raided Kara, ZA, a small amount of SSC and Hyjal, Naxx2.0/EoE/OS, Ulduar, TOC, ICC, BoT/BWD/To4W, FL, and DS all in their "current content" period and I wouldn't say that they've ever produced a "bad" raid. I actually kinda liked TOC. Lorewise it seemed a little bit unnecessary but doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it. DS was less enjoyable but I wouldn't call it bad. I think if they mix it up with a few more "winged" raids but stick with the larger ones then they're on the right path. I know they started doing these 4-8 boss raids as a happy medium between tiny raids and huge raids, but I actually think you need to be at either extreme to do it right. I quite liked EoE and I got a huge nostalgia hit for OS when farming the drakes the other day. One huge raid with 1-2 one boss raids would be simply fantastic, as long as it's not robotic each tier having the same thing. Ruby Sanctum was awful though, more to do with how shit the story was rather than the boss itself.

  7. #27
    Stood in the Fire Mcaffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    We were an extremely strange guild. We were all from a raiding guild that collapsed in early ulduar, some of us went to raid elsewhere about 7 sat in this other. In Sept 2010 I joined the social guild as did a few others and we got like 8/12hc ICC in like 2-3 weeks but you would with the 30% buff. Come Cata I was still raid leading, first tier didn't go well but Firelands and DS we did decently well Got like a realm 5th Glory of the FL Raider and everything. Our heroic progress was Shannox -> Majorhomo -> Baleroc -> Rhyolith -> Beth -> Alys. To this day I still don't really know what happened in this 3 years we raided together, but it was good. Strange as fuck but good. One day we'd have some dps that would all be ranking then the next day (same players) everyone would do half the dps yet the boss appeared to die just as easily. So confuzzling.
    Brb my curry is here (raid leader/MT fucks off for 30 minutes)
    Oeh my glass is empty (main healer fucks off for new bottle of wine)
    Hey standing in this purple/green/red stuff kills you (our epic GM and also healer)
    I like boobs and vodka (starts chatting up the healer - the one with the wine) - the sandbox exploding DK
    Fuck off give me M&M's (our pala healer)
    Where is my pet or why is my pet licking the boss - raid splat (me)
    Oeh big red button )))))) (stormy noooooooooooo - raid splat)

    Not so confuzzling Merin :P
    10 minutes of pure epicness followed by 2 hours of madness

  8. #28
    Banned MerinPally's Avatar
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    Who were you guys to come between me and Chicken Tikka Naga? Besides, you enjoyed those Star Trek Quizzes you guys did to entertain yourselves when I was gorging. I think you missed out the point where we had a balance druid who didn't show up for a raid and logged on 4 days later to say he was in custody because he *might* have started a fire during a riot but it's cool because it *might* not have been him. I don't know if you were around for that one.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    Well yeah, of course. But I still think it would be very interesting for farm modes when you want to spice things up a bit.
    Add achievements only possible to be earned on X difficulty. Would be funny as hell

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    We were an extremely strange guild. We were all from a raiding guild that collapsed in early ulduar, some of us went to raid elsewhere about 7 sat in this other. In Sept 2010 I joined the social guild as did a few others and we got like 8/12hc ICC in like 2-3 weeks but you would with the 30% buff. Come Cata I was still raid leading, first tier didn't go well but Firelands and DS we did decently well Got like a realm 5th Glory of the FL Raider and everything. Our heroic progress was Shannox -> Majorhomo -> Baleroc -> Rhyolith -> Beth -> Alys. To this day I still don't really know what happened in this 3 years we raided together, but it was good. Strange as fuck but good. One day we'd have some dps that would all be ranking then the next day (same players) everyone would do half the dps yet the boss appeared to die just as easily. So confuzzling.
    Ah i was with my guild from start of wrath so we knew what we were doing. We got many realm first HCs and shit

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    That is incorrect, usually in ICC you did Rotface/Festergut then Putricide. Maybe on world first race you do the easier in each quarter first. But when not doing world first race you do them by proximity so you clear each quarter before moving to the next and usually the closest quarter first aswell

    As for SoO, it is pretty linear still though there was some choice no matter if it was only between 2 bosses, or 3 if you are technical. At least with Warlords of Draenor you have whole wings to choose from again. And you will be able to do the last wing directly after you done the other ones at least one time. Think they said something about key pieces dropping from the normal wings that you can put together to access last one directly the next reset. Though I don't know if its guaranteed to drop on first time or just a chance.
    Not in any of the many guilds I followed. There was absolutely no reason to throw yourself at an endboss that was three times harder than the first bosses in the other two wings. In the world first race, the gates to the other two wings were closed so you'd actually attempt putricide beforehand, but even so, if you take a look at Paragon who was rank 1 back then, they did all the start-wing bosses (valithria, R+F, BPC) before any of the end bosses. It was "free loot" and far easier. Only an idiot would attempt the endboss before the start bosses.

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    That is incorrect, usually in ICC you did Rotface/Festergut then Putricide. Maybe on world first race you do the easier in each quarter first. But when not doing world first race you do them by proximity so you clear each quarter before moving to the next and usually the closest quarter first aswell
    Only if you were on a farm clear...

    If you were progging you would do similar to as listed, with some variance between guilds naturally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  13. #33
    I believe Blizz's stance on this is: truly optional bosses, like Ulduar, cause guild drama because some people have upgrades off them while others think its a waste of time. More non-linear zones would be fine though like FL or ICC.

    Of course, with their new key system that will work like current flex, idk if that holds true anymore.

  14. #34
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    I believe Blizz's stance on this is: truly optional bosses, like Ulduar, cause guild drama because some people have upgrades off them while others think its a waste of time. More non-linear zones would be fine though like FL or ICC.

    Of course, with their new key system that will work like current flex, idk if that holds true anymore.
    Well, easy solution to that is to require them to be killed to get to the last boss, but give choice so you don't go from Boss A to Boss B with zero choice. That would also help a ton with lesser-skilled guilds to avoid putting them up against walls; having trouble with Boss B? Go try Boss C for a bit instead.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Well, easy solution to that is to require them to be killed to get to the last boss, but give choice so you don't go from Boss A to Boss B with zero choice.
    That's exactly how spoils/thok/siegecrafter go.

    Also a bit of choice is good but something like firelands layout applied to a 12 boss raid would suck big time

  16. #36
    I don't see why people keep bringing up ICC.

    If you go back and do it NOW, yeah you have a few choices once you hit a certain point. But that shit didn't exist when it was current. The reason everyone went after rotface and festergut first after saurfang was because blood and frost wings were gated and you couldn't do them. It's why progression went the way it did.

    If you were in a GOOD guild, you cleared Saurfang > Rotface/Festergut > Putricide > Blood Princess > Blood Queen > Dreamwalker > Sindragosa
    If you were in a mediocre guild you cleared Saurfang > Rotface/Festergut > Blood Princes > Dreamwalker > Putricide > Blood Queen > Sindragosa. And the only reason that worked is because the end bosses of each wing were harder and if you couldn't progress in all the weeks of being gated, you killed easy bosses until it was all opened until you eventually killed some end wing bosses.

    The one and only choice you ever had in ICC was do you kill Rotface first or Festergut. That is it. You could only choose between the two and then you still had to kill both before attempting putricide and that was it. Putricide was on farm before the other wings even unlocked. So progression was still linear unless you were in a terrible guild or started way late.

    Siege only really has one choice as well, after Malkorok you can choose to do Siegecrafter or "other boss". First other boss being spoils, second other boss being Thok. But you must clear all 3 to move on to paragons. That isn't much of a choice.

    Tempest Keep and SSC were the only raids that really had choices. You could do hydross, or skip him. Do lurker, or skip him. Do leotheras or skip him. Do the sea giant dude, or skip him. I believe you could even do the fight with the 5 bosses before clearing leotheras or the sea giant guy as well if you simply walked around them, we never did this so I can't say for certain.

    The only choice you didn't have was Vashj and you were required to beat all the other bosses before you could fight her. And since she is the end boss, that is totally fine and acceptable.

    TK was the same way. You chose which bosses you wanted but you had to do them all to get to Kael'thas.

    Much better design imo. Ulduar also had a lot of choices. Forced flame leviathan, then you had 3 options. After XT you had another 2-3 choices depending on if you were algalon keyed or not. After kalogarn you had like 5 choices. Then after all that, forced into two more linear progress fights. That was fine, and good imo.

    I'm not a fan of linear raids. It feels too much like hand holding when you just get in there and are stuck in a tunnel the entire time with only one direction to move in. You can't deviate from your path, you are stuck on rails. I hate it. Personally i'd rather you had the ability to explore a little bit, have the potential to get lost, and part of refining your clearing of it on farm is choosing which path is the most efficient to move through. But you don't get choices anymore, nor do you have to think anymore, it's all one long tunnel and you can only move forward.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  17. #37
    Nothing has been linear since Raid Finder was introduced because raid finder has to be on rails.

    I liked tier 11 a lot because some of the top guilds would be working on Blackwing Descent, some would be working on Bastion of Twilight and others were working in Throne of the Four Winds.


    The guy above me is funny though. Last time I checked heroic Icecrown unlocked all at the same time, so you could choose which of the three wings you wanted to do.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    The guy above me is funny though. Last time I checked heroic Icecrown unlocked all at the same time, so you could choose which of the three wings you wanted to do.
    If i'm not mistaken there was gating. I'm pretty much sure about reading something like "with the opening of blood wing end of boss attempts are increased by 5". Was that on normal? Has been quite some time since then

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dasani View Post
    I don't see why people keep bringing up ICC.

    If you go back and do it NOW, yeah you have a few choices once you hit a certain point. But that shit didn't exist when it was current. The reason everyone went after rotface and festergut first after saurfang was because blood and frost wings were gated and you couldn't do them. It's why progression went the way it did.

    If you were in a GOOD guild, you cleared Saurfang > Rotface/Festergut > Putricide > Blood Princess > Blood Queen > Dreamwalker > Sindragosa
    If you were in a mediocre guild you cleared Saurfang > Rotface/Festergut > Blood Princes > Dreamwalker > Putricide > Blood Queen > Sindragosa. And the only reason that worked is because the end bosses of each wing were harder and if you couldn't progress in all the weeks of being gated, you killed easy bosses until it was all opened until you eventually killed some end wing bosses.

    The one and only choice you ever had in ICC was do you kill Rotface first or Festergut. That is it. You could only choose between the two and then you still had to kill both before attempting putricide and that was it. Putricide was on farm before the other wings even unlocked. So progression was still linear unless you were in a terrible guild or started way late.
    Please tell me you're talking about normal here. That'd be the only way this makes sense, but I just have to be sure. No heroic guilds were "good" enough that they skipped start-bosses in favor of end-bosses.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inthislzon View Post
    If i'm not mistaken there was gating. I'm pretty much sure about reading something like "with the opening of blood wing end of boss attempts are increased by 5". Was that on normal? Has been quite some time since then
    The guy you quoted is correct, normal was gated. HC wasn't. For easy proof: http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ting.tier10_25
    You can here see that 9/12 HC was cleared on the first day, leaving sindragosa, putricide and lich king HC standing.
    Also you are correct that you gained more tries over time, during the normal gating you first had 5 attempts when plaguewing was released and you got more as other wings unlocked. Once heroic started though it kept increasing but now on a weekly basis, until it stopped at 50.
    And then you had the stacking 5% stat-increase increasing every 4th week, which started counting from HC release.

    Just to throw some dates in there aswell from paragon's kills in ICC:
    Marrowgar normal: Dec 9th 2009
    Lich king normal: Feb 4th 2010
    All nonendbosses + Blood Queen HC: Feb 10th 2010
    Sindragosa HC: Feb 11th 2010
    Putricide HC: Feb 12th 2010
    Lich King HC: Mar 26th 2010

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