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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    DPS are the measurement of the success of the group without a tank. The reason I can solo most heroics as 2H frost is because I do more damage solo than a 5 man group did at the start of an expansion. I can blow through most of the mechanics because they either don't happen (die too fast) or my health is high enough that I can survive it as a tank would have at 435 gear.

    The idea of making the DPS kinda "off-tank" is a good idea. I wouldn't want to remove the entire concept of a dungeon group - I've met some great people in dungeons but I don't think as the expansion continues that the original 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps format is necessary
    that is my point. a lot of this "tanks don't matter" rubish is the sputum of overly geared dps that were not crying for the removal of tanks before they lost a bit of squish. This expansion I could solo the first two normal dungeons as a pally tank the day I hit 90. Most dps cannot make that claim.

    The simple answer is NOT to remove any one class, but to make the content challenging enough and remove the ability of dps to take more than one or two shots from a (group) boss much like it was in prior content. Taking the defense rating out of the game was a very silly mistake on blizzard's part. There was a mechanic that in one fell swoop added the ability to keep dps in their place. As tools to bring a target's health down. Mine is to fix it in place while you do so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kao View Post
    Maybe it's because I'm EU but, ehm, from my experience there is rarely ever a lack of tanks in LFD at all. I can't remember a single case when I waited longer than 5 minutes for an invite as DPS, which is as good as nothing, and more often this is due to a lack of heals and not tanks. Are things really so different on the other side of the ocean?
    I rarely que for LFD. I ONLY do so on tuesday or if a goody bag is up. Lately I have seen no goody bags, OR I que when it says that it is available and then it is not when the group forms so I obviously decline.

    This being said it would point to there NOT being a shortage of tanks. Maybe there is a shortage of competent players who are filling the tank rolls, but LFD is not built around the concept of any competency being needed.







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  2. #22
    I haven't had longer than a 10 minute LFD queue in a long time.

  3. #23
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    We've said before that it's not a lack of tank specs. It's a lack of people willing to shoulder the abuse that gets heaped on them in such a pivotal role. A bad tank can make or break an LFR group while a good one is almost never thanked and just abused when things go wrong.

    I'm generalizing to a small degree but it's why I stopped running LFR on my alts and completely stopped tanking it despite the fact that I am a tank. Every tank to 90, every one of them raided with in some fashion.
    Seconding this, and also among other reasons (active mitigation) is a big reason I have all but given up tanking in MMOs period; I'm tired of dealing with it and having to go out of my way to research things for the dungeon before I queue up, make sure I know every mob's composition (e.g. if there's a caster or something I need to LOS or bring mobs to), if there are pats, what the kill order should be where applicable, what needs to be CC'd where applicable, and in general herd cats all the while wondering if they're thinking I'm a bad tank because I'm not chainpulling or because I haven't done a dungeon before.

    When I actually get a slight anxiety attack when thinking of checking the tank role for a dungeon (or simply queuing up in games that have a dedicated tank role e.g. FF14), then it's time to give it up. Nothing is going to solve the tank issue until people learn to be nice and friendly and helpful, and for every friendly person there's a bunch of douchebags that only care about themselves.
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  4. #24
    Well this is a small problem to fix. LFD queue times? Seriously? Might as well be working to change the graphic on capes.

  5. #25
    Over 9000! MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    I can do better than that.

    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/u...hills/skrillox

    This is my Co-tank.
    Covered in SoO gear. I said without SoO gear. Fine maybe he doesn't need to get full stamina but... SoO gear. Noone with the end expansion raid gear does 5mans. Now please find me an example of something that I asked for.

  6. #26
    lfd queue times are always pretty much sub 15 mins, they aren't the problem

  7. #27
    There is a surplus of tanks that like to gawk at dungeon art, crawl at a snails pace through dungeons/raids, and have an inability to keep aoe threat or threat in general.

    If you are an efficient person that likes to level/gear up fresh characters quickly and/or not spend 5 hours to clear one LFR wing, please start tanking. It doesn't mean you have to raid lead, or make other people understand their roles, it's just a different playstyle. Please learn your aoe abilities and get threat plates. thanks.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Valarius's Avatar
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    I have the solution to the tank problem:

    Make dungeons require a TANK again and not a DPS with an aggro modifier on.

    I've been levelling a new Paladin as Prot and not a single dungeon I've done (up to about level 50) teaches you anything about tanking. Fortunately I also main a Protadin so I know what I'm doing, but half the time if the healer is decent I just respec Ret and keep RF on. There's no difference; nothing will kill you if you're not using a shield/stance, mobs die in 3 hits because of power creep (a lvl 50 in Vanilla was far weaker than a lvl 50 now is). It's exactly the same thing at cap.. I have done several dungeons without a tank. Even on heroic they're a joke.

    I know people were a bit averse to harder heroics; I get it - I didn't have fun in the revamped ZG/ZA either when my group was wiping but it teaches people to play properly and to work together to overcome a challenge. Players in this expansion just don't have that experience.. everything can be done in AFK AoE autopilot until you hit raids and then the tank fucks up and nobody is supporting him with their utility skills or healing properly or doing anything but mashing their 1/2/3 keys that they've been using since level 10...

    You can get to 90 without even having really _TANKED_ anything (or as a DPS, learned that mobs can be dangerous and you shouldn't act like an idiot). Then raids are a whole other story than you're used to and you're in at the deep end. Blizzard really needs to start using the leveling and entry level content as a tool to teach co-operation and co-ordination again. Until they do that, tanks wont get better at what they do as they work towards raiding, they'll get frustrated and respec to DPS, and the DPS will never learn that actually they can help the tank do his job instead of just spamming their rotation ad nauseum and raging when "somebody else" causes a wipe.
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  9. #29
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    I can do better than that.

    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/u...hills/skrillox

    This is my Co-tank.
    Not exactly related but either the bear I know is scumbagging something or your druid is doing something seriously wrong, as he should be killing DPS meters in my experience. My group's bear tank does around 245k DPS on Thok, over twice that of yours (as of your last recorded WoL kill for Thok on 12/5) and Skrillox beats him by two iLevels. Not saying he's actually wrong (you might have been solo tanking?) just strikes me as odd because I am used to bear druids destroying everybody else on meters; ours is almost always Top 3 DPS on every fight.

    Back on topic

    As I said before the problem is that tanking is thankless. You bear the responsibility of the group and tanking is the ONLY role that all but requires additional research and planning before setting foot. I legitimately get anxiety attacks when I think of tanking for random groups as of the past year or so because I'm always nervous that I'll mess something up or do anything less than perfection (even on content that I know) which in my eyes makes me bad. In other games I literally cannot bring myself to queue as a tank because of it, I keep telling myself if I'm sure I want to tank, and then go "Maybe I'll wait a little" etc. and then ultimately don't do it. I highly doubt any other role, certainly not DPS (possibly healing though) has anything remotely similar.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-12-08 at 03:11 AM.
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  10. #30
    Just let people queue with the option of having NPCs fill certain slots competently. Boom.
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  11. #31
    Stood in the Fire Steve the Sloth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Not exactly related but either the bear I know is scumbagging something or your druid is doing something seriously wrong, as he should be killing DPS meters in my experience. My group's bear tank does around 245k DPS on Thok, over twice that of yours (as of your last recorded WoL kill for Thok on 12/5) and Skrillox beats him by two iLevels. Not saying he's actually wrong (you might have been solo tanking?) just strikes me as odd because I am used to bear druids destroying everybody else on meters; ours is almost always Top 3 DPS on every fight.
    Same situation with our groups bear tank, he does nasty dps.

  12. #32
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Classiccs View Post
    Same situation with our groups bear tank, he does nasty dps.
    Seems to be a common thing, I find it a little strange that they nerfed Brewmasters for doing super high DPS via vengeance scumbagging but have never to my knowledge touched Guardian Druids, which have always been insane with DPS without doing anything more than their normal stuff, especially once they are geared and have tons of crit.
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  13. #33
    Tanks are tired of putting up with retarded DPS. You can't fix that.
    More infractions than a faultline.

  14. #34
    the problem I see, from an altoholic's pov, is that really most people will have 1 tanking toon. maybe 1 healing toon. then several DPS toons. I know there are days when I cant face logging my tank alt in id much rather pwn through on the deeps

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