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  1. #1

    WoW PVP Unsalvageable after 5.4?

    Hey guys,

    I've been playing wow for a long time and have seen every patch that was looked at as "bad". Patch 5.4 is definitely alarming. Some mechanics in the game right now are so unfair and blatantly favorite certain classes.

    I just wanted to bring up the topic of, "Do you guys think pvp in WoW has gone too far down the drain?". So many of my friends (who have played for a long time, around late vanilla) have quit due to this patch, and it's making me question the game. I love this game and have so many memories here, but the direction the game is going in is disappointing.

  2. #2
    I personally think Blizzard made their priority firmly PvE > PvP after WotLK. They can't ever admit to that and never will, but there's a lot of evidence for it (simple, important PvP fixes that go unfixed for months/years, new abilities each expansion that are designed for PvE fun but are patently absurd in PvP, etc etc). I actually think they should bite the bullet and make a very WoW-like game (even a literal spin-off) that is just PvP, then cut PvP out of old WoW.

    Having said that if you play with a sense of humour and don't expect anything close to balance, there is still a decent amount of PvP fun to be had.

  3. #3
    High Overlord aceventura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aglassofmilk View Post
    Patch 5.4 is definitely alarming. Some mechanics in the game right now are so unfair and blatantly favorite certain classes.
    Please be more spesific what exactly. I can't realy understand all this QQ allover PVP threads, seems PVP comunity turning into army of whiners without good reason. Game is balanced like never been before, yes with sacrifice to class uniqess and adding more control abilities. No PVE items are better than curent tier PVP item, all classes and most specs are competitive, 3 brand new battlegrounds this expansion with brand new concepts, removing elite gear and so on and so on. Yes some things like world pvp need some attention, so is wintrading, but that will come in WoD.

  4. #4
    As good as MoP is, the PvP is really bad. 5.4 isn't as bad as 5.0, but just like, ick.

    To say nothing of the fact that pvp gear is undesirable unless you want to battleground a lot. It's basically like this:


    If you want to BG, RBG, or arena, you need PvP gear.
    If you need PvP gear, you need to RBG and arena.
    -> You'd be better off on tournament realm!


    This is important, because the pvp gear is so awful that there's four whole tiers of it better in pve, all of which launched this patch. If you world pvp with it, there's 2-3 tiers better than it, depending on your class and priority. So, there's virtually no gearing draw, and you still have to grind the gear up, and if you were interested in doing that it isn't for pve or world pvp, it's solely for ranking, and if THAT is what you want -> tournament realm.


    Pretty disturbing tbh. You would think they wouldn't have such a high opinion of the LFR and flex pve gear, or any gear, given how rapidly they wipe gear.

  5. #5
    Dreadlord taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aglassofmilk View Post
    Hey guys,

    I've been playing wow for a long time and have seen every patch that was looked at as "bad". Patch 5.4 is definitely alarming. Some mechanics in the game right now are so unfair and blatantly favorite certain classes.

    I just wanted to bring up the topic of, "Do you guys think pvp in WoW has gone too far down the drain?". So many of my friends (who have played for a long time, around late vanilla) have quit due to this patch, and it's making me question the game. I love this game and have so many memories here, but the direction the game is going in is disappointing.
    Yes. It is hopeless. Blizzard will remove it from the game in WoD, because it is so abysmal.

  6. #6
    Admittedly I mostly pve but when I do pvp I gotta say the single most frustrating thing is the amount of cc everyone has, as a warrior it's almost impossible to get off a good rotation as the moment I charge someone I'm instantly cc'd, that would be fine if it was only a few cc'd but I find majority of the time I'm cc'd 100% to dead. I know pvp isn't balanced for battlegrounds but its just too much and turns me off from wanting to pvp more. I think for me it they changed the way cc'd work in pvp so your not always locked down it would be much better.

  7. #7
    Dreadlord taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oncereborn View Post
    Admittedly I mostly pve but when I do pvp I gotta say the single most frustrating thing is the amount of cc everyone has, as a warrior it's almost impossible to get off a good rotation as the moment I charge someone I'm instantly cc'd, that would be fine if it was only a few cc'd but I find majority of the time I'm cc'd 100% to dead. I know pvp isn't balanced for battlegrounds but its just too much and turns me off from wanting to pvp more. I think for me it they changed the way cc'd work in pvp so your not always locked down it would be much better.
    As far as I know, warriors are assumed to be op in PvP currently, so you may be seeing more than other classes in regards to cc.

  8. #8
    to aceventura and all

    Love the name and the movie!

    The changes they made from 5.3 -> 5.4. There are a few specifics that come to mind.

    a) Feral druids: Why would you take away the only CC that made them viable? They needed a damage change and a way to be peeled. They did not need their only CC taken away; completely unnecessary. Possibly put shift on a 3 charge, 10 second cd just like feathers.

    b) Shadow priests: Why would you take out their dmg reduction? They were killable last patch, it just took effort. No reason for that change. The damage buff does not appear to make them relevant is pve as well! I'm still scratching my head about that change.

    c) Warrior mobility: They just nerfed intervene to where warriors must select safeguard, which was needed. But why would they buff mobility, defense, and offensive abilities? Makes no sense to give one class all of that at one time. I can't remember a patch where they buffed one class like that.

    d) Rogue damage: Although their damage is not outrageous, it is different than what it used to be. I always looked at the class as control > dmg.

    Also, the overall fact that if you have to cast in the game right now, you will not do well. Or your life will be extremely hard.

    I do not want to be perceived as a QQ'er. I play a mage and think their dmg, survivability, and CC is outrageous. I believe they certainly need a nerf to dmg or procs. I just think it is a relevant discussion that effects us all, and I wanted others input/opinion on the topic.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans DiscoGhost's Avatar
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    im leveling all my alts all right now to 90 then pretty much stopping, to say the least.
    You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.

  10. #10
    PVP in MMOs will never be balanced. You will have to get used to that fact. If you want 100% balanced PVP you will have to play Counterstrike or something. Balance and class uniqueness are mutually exclusive.

    Even PVP-focused MMOs over the years had terrible class balance. I'd say the WoW PVP balance is pretty good compared to some of the MMOs I have played.

  11. #11
    They should be able to see trends a hell of a lot better than we do, and yet it takes them forever to react to it. I wonder if they actually want people to spot the fotm class, level it to 90, gear it up and still be able to play it for 2 months until next patch. Perhaps the fotm class is a business strategy?

  12. #12
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    I feel like Blizzard doesn't learn their mistakes. For the past few years warriors have gone like this:
    Patch 1) Warriors overpowered. Patch 2) Warriors somewhat balanced. Patch 3) Warriors overpowered. And that goes on for years at a time.

    They seem to make changes without considering the possible negatives of them, and then after that patch they completely forget anything they'd learned through that trial and error.

    I think the worst thing they've done for PVP in 9 years of WoW, was implementing the base resilience. It gave PVE players the edge and made PVP gear obsolete for world PVP and even some RBG/Arena.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by aceventura View Post
    Please be more spesific what exactly. I can't realy understand all this QQ allover PVP threads, seems PVP comunity turning into army of whiners without good reason. Game is balanced like never been before, yes with sacrifice to class uniqess and adding more control abilities. No PVE items are better than curent tier PVP item, all classes and most specs are competitive, 3 brand new battlegrounds this expansion with brand new concepts, removing elite gear and so on and so on. Yes some things like world pvp need some attention, so is wintrading, but that will come in WoD.
    You know PvP hasn't been balanced since Season 8 (Season 3 was balanced too), right? The game's PvP has gone downhill ever since Wrath of the Lich King ended. They really need to go back and look at what made it so balanced and learn from the mistakes they've kept creating every season thereafter.

  14. #14
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    sure its salvagable , but thre are things that need to be done that blizz refuse to do, such as separate effects on spells for pvp and pve, and removing instants / casts on the move instead of adding more... also some gap closers could be toned down after removing instants

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by aceventura View Post
    Please be more spesific what exactly. I can't realy understand all this QQ allover PVP threads, seems PVP comunity turning into army of whiners without good reason. Game is balanced like never been before, yes with sacrifice to class uniqess and adding more control abilities. No PVE items are better than curent tier PVP item, all classes and most specs are competitive, 3 brand new battlegrounds this expansion with brand new concepts, removing elite gear and so on and so on. Yes some things like world pvp need some attention, so is wintrading, but that will come in WoD.
    Most classes are not competative at all.

  16. #16
    the problem is every spec viable =crap!just like the blue post on the front page-frost mages ect want to pve as frost= shitty pvp,this goes for all classes.blizz needs to go back to pvp and pve spec and separate the two= much improved pvp balance.blizz also need to make Armour matter again,give the classes different hit points again,aka making the classes different.but that goes against every spec viable so it will not happen.

    " Q-I never understood after dual spec was added why you guys didn't stop trying to balance pve and pvp and just have a pvp spec"
    A-Some Frost mages and Sub rogues want to PvE with that spec. Not saying that's the best design, but that was the motivation.

  17. #17
    I honestly don't think it can be.

    The primary reason is that Blizzard will never redesign enough of the talents or baseline class skills to make things fair.

    Let me explain by talking first about Moonkins. They're a Druid, and as such they are the most hybrid of hybrids. Melee, Range, healing, Tanking - if it's a thing, they can do it. But the problem with that is that Moonkins need to fill two very clear roles to a decent enough degree. First, they need to be a capable and competitive caster, able to match the DPS (depending on the fight) of Mages, Warlocks, (Hunters), SPriests, and Shamans. They can't afford to be weak JUST BECAUSE they're a hybrid.. because that Hybridity doesn't do much on many fights. It's a philosophy taken onboard since Late TBC.

    Second, they need to be a hybrid. The benefit-yet-danger here is that a Moonkin doesn't need Prowl. Or Pounce. In the same way that a Feral druid doesn't get Solar beam or Starfall. But the baseline skill of hybrids allow them to do too much. If you fight a Moonkin OR a Feral, they both have the same stealth capability and they both have the same opener.

    Why?

    The healing part I understand, but stealth? CAT FORM I understand, but a stun from Stealth?

    Another issue is the talents. I get that talents are supposed to be exciting, but so MANY are PvP talents. And on top of that, speaking about Druids specifically, many of the talents can be cast in any form.

    Why? Surely the benefit of being a hybrid comes with a tax in certain areas. Why can't Might Bash trigger Bear Form? Why can't Renewal trigger Tree/Humanoid form? Why can't Predator's Swiftness require a humanoid state to cast - or at least trigger it?

    It's all part of the arms race.

    Look at the talents and ask yourself how many you use for PvE? yet we have trinket talents, CC talents, talents that bosses are immune to or that are 'worthless' to cast in PvE because stuff dies too fast. In fact, we have MORE CC nowadays than when we actually NEEDED CC - in places like Black Temple, Sunwell, and so on.

    Next we'll look at Rogues. Rogues and Warriors epitomise the problem of the arms race. One I think can probably be condensed down into there being no DR on knock-backs and interrupts. As a Holy Paladin, I find Rogues a bit of a bother. Bubbling an opener doesn't usually help, because they're likely to re-stealth and it just starts over... so I take an opener. With Subterfuge, this consists of a Garrotte silence, an Ambush or Mutillate, and then a Cheap Shot. So for 4 seconds (or more:glyphed) I'm silenced, and then for 4 seconds I'm stunned. There is some overlap here, but it doesn't matter: After the CS wears off I'm hit with a KS for 3 seconds (DR:50%) and after that, I might be able to start fighting back. At least I would, if I hadn't been hit with Paralytic Poison that stuns me for 4sec OFF the standard stun DR. I might survive, but the problem we have is that Rogue control used to be a SUBSTITUTE for damage - you could lock down a guy and gradually let your white hits and poisons do most of the work. That's no longer the case. CP generators hit fairly hard, poisons are lethal for Assassination, and the ability to stack 6-7 cooldowns (incl pots) and NOT BREAK STEALTH is stupid. Not only am I silenced during the opener, but I can't see they guy and neither can my teammates. That 3seconds is enough to lock me down for 7seconds and potentially longer in a CC chain that includes a vanish/restealth, Prep, Blind, etc.


    I do have options. I can trinket, but considering subterfuge has no cooldown, I might have used my trinket for a similar assault 30 seconds ago. But I'll trinket anyway. So I'm free... I managed to get a Holy Shock off healing myself a bit, applying a small shield, and earning 1HP. But now I get blinded. I'm free of the poisons (if the rogue doesn't have Dirty Tricks talented) but I'm not going to do a lot while blinded.

    If I need a quick cast then mind-numbing puts paid to that. Mind-numbing PLUS knockbacks - which I seem to lack much resistance to. If I juke a Kick, he still has Blind and Gouge (the latter of which can be glyphed to get rid of positional requirements) and all in all, it's a messy, frustrating encounter. The damage comes in to quick to Cleanse poisons, the interrupts do not stop at kick but extend to blind, gouge, KS, Deadly Throw, and so on.

    What's worse is that I have so much stuff on the GCD. Even bubble. I can't even cast Divine Favour when I'm casting something else even though it isn't on the GCD. Why?

    Why have we come to point where it's so easy for classes to lock out someone else? Damage comes in THICK and FAST. Rogues stack pots, vendetta,/KillingSpree/Dance with Shadow Blades, Trinket, and procs. That doesn't result in damage being an alternative to control... they're one and the same thing. You just get hit and you can't fight back. There was a communication between devs and players a while ago that hoped to result in a more fluid flow between health and healing in PvE. Bosses were hitting too hard and if tanks didn't dodge, they'd lose too much HP. In PvP, we're at the same place. health pools PLUMMET, and the healing debuff along with Battle Fastigue means that even go-to spells like Flash of Light and Prism are just too slow.

    Melee classes with a 1sec GCD don't have to wait or think to interrupt with GCD abilities (obv not kick, etc) A nuclear Warrior with 2 procs, 6 buffs and an ANGRY AXE can fear and disrupt and stagger during bladestorm. He makes my Turn Evil talent useless, or even reflects it.... twice.. on top of kick, Stormbolt and Shockwave. Two Charges.

    It just means that when that Warrior is fighting a Mage, the mage needs a second blink, or a blazing speed, and the Druid now needs a blink as well as Beam, Vortex, Treeroots, HoJ. And the Paladin has Fear, and AoE Blind... but balancing is harder.. so my AoE blind lags to a 2.0sec cast (mind-numbing) and I get kicked, so I can't do anything except Devo Aura, but that doesn't stop the next stun, and....

    You get the picture.

    I've rambled a bit, and let some frustrations with the arms-race PvP scene filter though.. but it's a genuine opinion and a real worry.

    Everyone has a stun, everyone is getting more forms of CC. the only light at the end of the tunnel seems to be that the majority of L100 talents aren't CC-minded. But there are exceptions in some columns. Paladin 1, Monk 1.

    I don't know.. I just think that PvE has done too much damage. The developers want the talents to be awesome for everyone all the time. They seem to want classes to have no drawbacks. 'AWESOME' always wins over 'COMMON SENSE' and 'BALANCE'. You dont need to look at stuff like Symbiosis to realise that things have gone wrong. No, the Tree doesn't need an Ice Block, and no the Spriest doesn't need Cyclone.

    It's another case of : "Blizzard, chill your shit out!" but they won't listen. They're stuck in Jay Wilson mode where PvP is an after thought and Brian Holinka isn't daring, smart, or decisive enough to change what needs to be changed.

    We don't need CC baked into every talent. Having LESS baseline stuff (prowl, pounce, Deep Freeze, and so on) means that the SAME AMOUNT of skills can be given to specs through SPECIALIZATION. The fun part about PvE is killing stuff and doing the 'awesome'. The fun part about PvP WAS to play tactically over the course of some minutes. But now people just load up CDs, spend their CC frivolously, and have 2-3 back-ups if they mess up.

    I'd love to see a max of 3 ccs per spec, a limit of 3 DR school, and NO CC in talents. let people bladestorm and Body and Soul, and heal, and Blood Tap, and Sacrifice pets, and Unleash elements... just get rid of the constant 50% snares, the casting slows and the million and one stuns.

  18. #18
    Well put Jez.

    So to the OP: Yes. Unsalvageable.

  19. #19
    This PVE and PVP will never be balanced because :

    1. Spell damage for PVE and PVP is not separated ( probably should given another field in database for PVP ).
    atm, the only thing separate the damage taken is resilience and it's so static.
    Not saying it's bad, but when a spec QQ in PVE Raid damage meter, buffing the damage for the raid mean buffing the damage for PVP too.
    What happen to PVE should happen in PVE, the formula damage between PVE and PVP should be separated.

    2. PVE don't have their own unique stat on their gear( should have PVE power or something that only effect fighting NPC/mob)
    Every patch PVE-ers expect 40-75% increase dps on their new gear. This damage comes from increment Primary Stat ( Int, Agi, Str) and Secondary Stat ( Haste, Crit, Mastery ).
    Unfortunately it also will effect on PVP. if they just add another stat like PVE Power ( damage increase against NPC/mob ), put the the primary stat and sec stat level the same as ( let's just say ) 535 ( even for 566 Heroic Gear ), add PVE Power ( higher item level higher PVE power ),
    for example 540 gear = 535 + 5% PVE Power, 553 = 535 + 15% PVE Power,
    then this whining PVE and PVP in World PVP will not happen.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oncereborn View Post
    Admittedly I mostly pve but when I do pvp I gotta say the single most frustrating thing is the amount of cc everyone has, as a warrior it's almost impossible to get off a good rotation as the moment I charge someone I'm instantly cc'd, that would be fine if it was only a few cc'd but I find majority of the time I'm cc'd 100% to dead. I know pvp isn't balanced for battlegrounds but its just too much and turns me off from wanting to pvp more. I think for me it they changed the way cc'd work in pvp so your not always locked down it would be much better.
    That goes for everyone, and as a warrior you're better at dealing with them than anyone else atm.
    Fighting warriors in a group setting is like trying to steer away a freight train with a toothpick.

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