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  1. #1
    High Overlord Canaslan's Avatar
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    Our hunter underperforms. Needs help.

    Hello everyone,

    In our raids our hunter usually lags behind and we've helped him a lot in 8 or so months with tips like go to forum x or y or with addons and raid awareness and decision making. Even macro's. He has improved since then, but there is still a lot to do.

    I dont have much knowledge about the class, so I can't improve him in that area. So I'm turning to you guys in the hope that maybe you can give some extra pointers.

    This is his armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Craa/advanced

    These are the logs:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k2icmi991encwqq2/ (Garrosh)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/dkjedw90p3idtfg0/ (Garrosh)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ifnznyi5chovy1kz/ (10 bosses)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rjmi5mzovnjjqlaa/ (Paragon+Garrosh)

    Now as you can see, we have been wiping on Garrosh quite a while. But we changed our tactic going from 5 deeps down to 6, and 3 healers down to 2. It helps out a lot, but we feel Craa isn't performing up to par with the others and especially on the interrupting part.

    So, yes there are a couple of questions in this post:
    - What is he doing right and what is he doing wrong? Does he have a low/high uptime of a certain ability or not?
    - How can he still improve his game with useful addons for raiding?
    - What can he do to make sure a cast of Mind Controlled players in the Garrosh fight don't go off?
    - And can you give him some pointers for the Garrosh fight? What do you guys do? We go with 2 tanks, 6 deeps, 2 healers, so our strategy is to push the boss in order to avoid the minions of yshaarj phase as much as possible (I know we still have to deal with it 3-4 times maybe).


    Im looking forward to your responses. The hunter in question will also be looking into this thread. Thanks in advance!

    ~Can
    Last edited by Canaslan; 2013-11-23 at 07:08 AM.

  2. #2
    Since nobody has answered yet as I start typing this, I'll give it a shot - I'm not an authority but my guild is 1/14h and I've been there for each Garrosh kill.

    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/silvermoon/craa and click optimize - why was he reforged favoring crit instead of haste? Maybe he's normally SV and is just BM atm when I looked at him. That would explain that. It doesn't look like he's on siege engineers, so he should be absolutely demolishing the adds about 10 seconds after the pull. If possible he should be spending extra rolls for the trinket of dark shaman (haromm?) instead of that cleave trinket. (See Mr.Robot again.)

    Either way if you're running into boss for MCs or staying stacked and the whole raid kills the desecrated weapon (higher uptime for damage, it's weird but it works I've killed him on normal both ways) the two ways a hunter has (without changing talents) is Counter Shot and Scatter shot. Between his 4pc set and his assurance of consequence trinket (both of which I have) he should nearly be able to hit Beastial Wrath each time or around each time someone is MC'd.

    What else... I use distracting shot to grab adds in phase 2.

    Hopefully a good hunter will reply soon, best of luck!

  3. #3
    High Overlord aceventura's Avatar
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    first suggest him to follow this very usefull thread

    secondary stats priorites can vary from gear he uses but in genarl crit for surv and bm is considered to be best choice for most wanted secondary stat after trinket mechanics have been changed so in general his gear is optimised except he is slightly below expertease cap. for reforges recomend him using reforge addon if he havn't using it already.

    before MC are empowered (phase 3) abilities that break cc are counter shot, scatter shot, frost trap, all of tier 2 talents (binding, wyvern and intimid) and any of pet cc abilities. but MCed hp isnt that high to use anything more than regular interupt once per add max, if you need more interupts you proly are either too slow to switch dps or not stacking good enough. for empowered MC only counter shot will stop them from cast

    i have slow connection (replying from hotel) and checked only one one fight- your last attemt on garosh. he seems not using lots of abilities on cd: barrage used once (30 sec cd), dire beast must have been casted more frequently, kill shot used only once etc I believe not using spells on cd is bigset his issue. to track cooldowns he can use addons like weak auras or tell me when

    very easy way to increase passively damage is change skinning to any crafting proffession (engineering is best due to extreamy good synergy between BW and synapse), you are on high pop server materials are cheap

    also talents he uses isnt optimal in my opinion- i would recomend him using aspect of iron hawk instead of spirit bond for reduced damge instead of passive heals, and glave toss over barrage, AMOC is better in this fight due to numerous times garrosh is under 20% so you can get higher uptime, but seems he lack attention needed to track it properly

  4. #4
    Since I'm pretty tired, I'm only going to put my 2 cents in from just quickly glancing over his armory and logs.

    -I would change out Skinning to another profession that provides more of a dps increase. Personally I would go with Engineering for the glove enchant and other handy little tinkers.

    -Change the gem in the boots from agl/crit to just agl as the mastery socket bonus isn't worth going for. You generally tend to only want to match the socket bonus (if the gem sockets arent all red) if it's 120+ agl.

    -Make sure that he reforges so that he is at/slightly over exp cap, as of now he is .07% below it.

    -On your clear of SoO this week, I noticed that he did not use any lvl 90 talent (Glaive Toss, Barrage) on General Nazgrim/Malkorok/Thok. Make sure that he is using his talents, pref Glaive Toss on those fights.

    -I noticed that on a fight or 2, he had damage from Multi-Strike which means that he has the trinket from Dark Shaman. I'm not sure what version he has, but you might want to try to get him another trinket besides the Cleave Trinket from spoils that he currently has equipped. The cleave trinket is prob the worst trinket for any hunter spec out all 4 available this tier. For BM, Ticking Ebon Dentonator and Assurance of Consequence are BiS. For SV, Haromm's Talisman and Assurance of Consequence are BiS.

    -If he ever does go SV, which i would suggest he does once he gets a flex+ version of Haromm's Talisman, make sure he uses A Murder of Crows instead of blink strike which he as now. MoC still does quite a bit of damage, just to make sure that you use it on cd, when you know you can get almost the full duration if not the full duration on the boss. Side Note- Make sure to stay with blink strike if BM, as it makes your pet op.

    -I noticed he has very low uptimes on both Rapid Fire and Barrage. With 2pc and the CDR trinket, he should be getting Rapid Fire down to a low cd time by spamming Arcane Shot/ Multi-Shot. With Barrage, if it just came off cd and you know there is going to be a more optimal time to use it coming up in a few secs (Slimes on Dark Shaman for Example) then you should save it for that moment. Outside of times like that, he should be using it off cd, but not while in Bestial Wrath. With only seeing it being used just a few times each fight, this alone should be a big increase in damage. Personally I would only use barrage on fights where there are a lot of adds for most of the duration of the fight. Most fights I would use Glaive Toss just because of more single target damage and with the lower focus cost, no cast time, lower cd.

    -On Garrosh, he could try "padding" more on the adds in phase 1 by casting more multi-shots which means more casts of beast cleave from his pet.

    -Dire Beast is good for fights like Malkorok where the beast never moves while attacking the boss but outside of that, personally I would use Thrill of the Hunt. If Dire Beast isn't able to attack the target for its full duration, its kind of a waste because you aren't getting the full amount of focus from it. With ToTH, you tend to be able to spam more Arcane/Multi-Shots off because of the lower focus cost.

    -Last off, I'm not the best with logs, but I'm pretty sure he is not using Kill Command as much as he should be. Make sure that he is using it off cd, while also making sure to save focus for it.

    -In terms of Garrosh, he can use scatter shot/counter shot to interupt the mc's. If the mc's are not empowered, he can use a well placed binding shot to stun the mc's (some ppl might hate that). With Binding Shot, if you place it so the edge of the graphic is just on the edge of the players hit box, it will instantly stun them when placed.

    -For Addons, he can try setting up Weak Auras to help track his buffs. If he is not familiar with WA's, you can prob find a good video of how to setup them up, as they aren't that hard to mess around with. I personally use JSHB, which is a focus bar addon and comes with some pretty cool extra features that can help.

    I apologize again if there is any grammar problems, typed this up pretty quick, trying to....not....fall.....asleep.... /sleep

  5. #5
    Looking at Malkorok, because it's Patchwerk for hunters:

    • Kill Command usage is crazy low
    • No Murder of Crows (AMOC is better than Blink Strikes until you're cleaving on four targets- BS does not improve KC damage)
    • Level 90 talent unused (zero damage from Glaive Toss or Barrage- Glaive Toss is preferred for single-target or clumped AOE)
    • He let Frenzy sit at 5 stacks without consuming them for about two minutes out of the fight (you should use Focus Fire to consume them right away, unless you're about to hit BW)
    • His pet either wasn't in Ferocity spec, or Rabid was set to not autocast
    • Using multi-shot on normal Malkorok, ever, let alone TWELVE TIMES (more than Kill Command, but does about 1/4 the damage single-target for the same cost). Beast Cleave DOES NOT increase the pet's damage against its primary target!
    • No potion use

    -Make sure that he reforges so that he is at/slightly over exp cap, as of now he is .07% below it.
    Eh. With a miss change that low, he'll get dodged like once a night.
    Last edited by Kingoomieiii; 2013-11-23 at 11:17 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingoomieiii View Post

    • No Murder of Crows (AMOC is better than Blink Strikes until you're cleaving on four targets- BS does not improve KC damage)
    Debatable. They are practically equal (only if you're getting Amoc on CD). Amoc being burstier, and Blink Strikes helps on moving bosses and cleaving.
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  7. #7
    High Overlord Canaslan's Avatar
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    Alright cheers guys. There is a lot of information for him in here.
    Thanks for this. I think it'll help him out a lot.
    What do you guys think about addons? I thinkn he overloaded himself with addons to help with this and that.
    If I should ask him to strip down his addon to a handful of necessary ones. Which ones do you reckon he should have as a hunter aside from the known ones like DBM?

  8. #8
    Mechagnome Arhippa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaslan View Post
    What do you guys think about addons? I thinkn he overloaded himself with addons to help with this and that.
    If I should ask him to strip down his addon to a handful of necessary ones. Which ones do you reckon he should have as a hunter aside from the known ones like DBM?
    That entirely depends on the player. Some people prefer a clean UI and some people like to have a lot of addons telling them a bunch of information. I personally prefer the cleaner UI and have few addons overall, none of them hunter-specific.
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  9. #9
    The difference between Crows and Blink Strikes in practice is very small, particularly on many SoO fights with targets that aren't alive 30s at a time. For example, I'd never use Crows on Immerseus, Protectors, Galakras, Nazgrim, Spoils, Siegecrafter, Paragons, or Garrosh. I personally run Blink Strikes/TotH at all times as SV, and I'm still ranking quite high even though my raid's DPS is overall lower than many of the high ranking Hunters.

    Add-Ons I NEED for my Hunter:
    Galvin's UnitBars - focus bar.
    WeakAuras2 - tracking procs, trinkets, boss abilities, you name it.
    VEM (Voice Encounter Mods) - A superior boss mod that allows me to pay more attention to my rotation and less attention to what the boss is doing.
    TidyPlates - Better nameplates help track debuffs and keep tabs on add health and the like.

    Every other add-on I use is either cosmetic (ElvUI) or just quality of life stuff (Skada). Like Arhippa says, Add-ons are really a personal preference thing aside from the very bare essentials (boss mod and WeakAuras2, basically).

  10. #10
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremypwnz View Post
    Debatable. They are practically equal (only if you're getting Amoc on CD). Amoc being burstier, and Blink Strikes helps on moving bosses and cleaving.
    Kingoomieiii looked at Malkorok, so he is correct in his analyze.

    But since it sounds like the player isn't too skilled with his class, fewer buttons might help him, so I'd say tell him to pick BS for every fight as BM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingoomieiii View Post
    Looking at Malkorok, because it's Patchwerk for hunters:

    • Kill Command usage is crazy low
    • No Murder of Crows (AMOC is better than Blink Strikes until you're cleaving on four targets- BS does not improve KC damage)
    • Level 90 talent unused (zero damage from Glaive Toss or Barrage- Glaive Toss is preferred for single-target or clumped AOE)
    • He let Frenzy sit at 5 stacks without consuming them for about two minutes out of the fight (you should use Focus Fire to consume them right away, unless you're about to hit BW)
    • His pet either wasn't in Ferocity spec, or Rabid was set to not autocast
    • Using multi-shot on normal Malkorok, ever, let alone TWELVE TIMES (more than Kill Command, but does about 1/4 the damage single-target for the same cost). Beast Cleave DOES NOT increase the pet's damage against its primary target!
    • No potion use



    Eh. With a miss change that low, he'll get dodged like once a night.
    i just saw 1 log and just notice the same, really low KC usage, 31 on a 12 min fight is pretty low. it should be close to 120 KC, this mean he is giving priority to arcane shot or cobra shot when it should be KC. once he master this he can start going on a bit more into the rest, this is the 1st thing he needs to fix, hitting KC on CD is priority number 1.

    he needs to look at a BIS list for normals (shouldnt be diferent from heroic, take into account a lot of ordos gear) and tune a bit better his gear, also tell him that sigil of rampage have no proc in single target and is a really bad trinket for hunters, i have it heroic warfoge, doublé upgraded and in fights where i got to sit and cleave it did less damage than my meta gem, like 1-2% of my damage as BM, it could be a bit better for survival but i dont think is worht it. he needs to get haroms. it should be his number 1 priority on his gear.

  12. #12
    Mechagnome Arhippa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    aside from the very bare essentials (boss mod and WeakAuras2, basically).
    Even the "bare minimum" varies from one player to another. For me, it's OmniCC. I can do without all the other addons, including a boss mods addon, but I want those seconds counting down on my abilities.
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  13. #13
    The gear looks fine but from what i saw on the logs the problem seems to be the rotation.
    Make sure your hunter knows the proper rotation(spell priority),if he at least trys to follow what is in the guides from this website you should start noticing some improvements,but then again someone raiding at least normals should have this in mind i think. http://www.icy-veins.com/

  14. #14
    Since the priority/rotation has been gone over thoroughly, I'll just comment on some addons I feel would help his game (if he hasn't gotten them already). The addons I feel are necessary are OmniCC (to show countdown timers on spell icons), Weak/Power Auras (to help track ANYTHING, dots, buffs, debuffs, procs, etc.), Tidy Plates (to help show hp/debuffs on nameplates), and ForteXorcist (to track dots, not as important if you're using W/PA to do this).
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  15. #15
    I see a lot of analysis in this thread, but not a lot of prioritizing for a fix.

    I've worked with several . . . how should I put this . . . . "struggling" hunters before. My goal has been to get them from awful to "ok" (maybe "solid" if we're lucky). I don't recommend these fixes for a top notch player.

    We don't want to overwhelm the player, so here's what I'd fix:

    Talents:
    1. Use Blink Strikes because it's passive and this player clearly has enough on their plate
    2. Use Fervor and macro it to Cobra shot (see below). Yes, this means they'll cap focus from time to time, but this player will probably still see a huge benefit.
    3. Don't worry about the level 90 talent right now (just tell him glaive toss), fix the other stuff first. (See "more help below")

    Rotation/Abilities:
    1. Make sure his pet is in ferocity spec.
    2. Make sure all of the pet's abilities, except for Growl (taunt), are on auto cast
    3. Use Kill Command on CD unless he's in an AoE situation. Make sure he has enough focus for it before it comes off CD. Delaying KC is a big DPS loss.
    4. Macro (yes, macro!) Bestial Wrath to Kill Command. This will ensure maximum uptime.
    Code:
    #showtooltip Kill Command
    /run x=GetCVar("Sound_EnableSFX")
    /console Sound_EnableSFX 0
    /run UIErrorsFrame:UnregisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE")
    /cast bestial wrath
    /petattack
    /use 13
    /use 14
    /run SetCVar("Sound_EnableSFX",x)
    /run UIErrorsFrame:RegisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE")
    /cast Kill Command

    4. Macro Rapid Fire and Fervor to Cobra Shot:
    Code:
    #showtooltip Cobra Shot
    /run x=GetCVar("Sound_EnableSFX")
    /console Sound_EnableSFX 0
    /run UIErrorsFrame:UnregisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE")
    /cast Rapid Fire
    /cast Fervor
    /run SetCVar("Sound_EnableSFX",x)
    /run UIErrorsFrame:RegisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE")
    /cast Cobra Shot
    5. Never hit Multishot unless there's 4 or more targets to hit.

    That will massively improve his DPS.

    MORE HELP

    Once he's got that down:

    - Have him hit Focus Fire every time the button glows (eventually tell him not to do it during Bestial Wrath)
    - Talent into Glaive Toss and hit it on cooldown (but don't delay KC for it).
    - Have him use a potion. You can macro it to Stampede if you think that will help


    Good luck!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here's a bunch of weak auras I came up with to help these players. I'm in the office so I don't remember what all of them do off the top of my head. Mostly they yell at you when you're about to cap focus, and when you're in Bestial Wrath.

    Have him get the weakauras addon and import these (delete the readiness one as readiness was removed):

    Code:
    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    Last edited by jason1975; 2013-11-23 at 10:19 PM.
    "I don't always play my warlock, but when I do, I prefer destruction."
    - The Most Interesting Player in the World . . . of Warcraft

  16. #16
    In virtually every thread like this that I've seen it's ALWAYS the player not using abilities at all or using them far less than they should be. That's his problem too.

    Gear, reforges, gemming are all things that will make a fairly small difference.

    UI - you can require DBM etc but if you told me what addons I can and cannot use I'd tell you to fuck right off. His addons aren't the issue so don't create drama for no reason.

  17. #17
    Moderator
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    4,081
    BS doesn't improve KC damage, but it improves your pet's basic attack, which will be your 2nd highest damage source usually in BM. It's significant damage. On a fight where your pet has full uptime on the boss, BS and AMoC will be virtually dead even, BS starts to lose efficacy when there's lots of pet movement (read: movement more than every 20s, BS's CD for the teleport).

    I didn't look at these logs, but if he really did 31 KCs in a 12 minute fight, there's something seriously wrong. That's an average of 2 1/2 per minute, when you can get 10 a minute, and it's our MAIN NUKE in BM. The most he can do to improve his damage is to press KC on CD, especially single target fights. I can understand pushing it to 7 or 8 seconds if there's AoE you need to nuke down so you're barraging/MSing, but other than that....

    As for addons, most hunters would suggest a focus bar and a mod to handle auras are "the bare essentials." JSHB is a good hunter focus bar, you can tailor it pretty specifically to your needs, and for auras, most people use TellMeWhen or WeakAuras.

  18. #18
    Every time there is a thread like this there is a lot of good information but it gets hidden in all the noise. People recommending changing one gem or changing talents etc.

    This is not the problem.

    He is not using his lvl 90 ability on some fights!? He is basically using KC completely randomly. This is what you have to focus on. Gemming talents etc is not why he is underperforming. It is because he doesn't know the basic thing about his class. That is what the answers to this thread should be about. Not if you should use BS or Crows.

  19. #19
    - What can he do to make sure a cast of Mind Controlled players in the Garrosh fight don't go off?: Counter shot and Scatter shot.

    It makes me sad that my alt in 526ilevel does more dps, at least you are trying to improve him.

    He pretty much needs to learn his rotation from scratch, because there is alsorts of wrong in there, send him over to Icy Veins or Noxxic to do some reading, along with this thread or at least what was said in it.

    At his crit levels won't haste now take over? I can't remember the exact numbers.

    Are you making sure hes bringing the right pet for any missing buffs or a battle rez? A lot of people forgot we can bring a battle rez.

    Really all he needs to do, is go read Icy Veins BM guide for rotation, and sit at a target dummy for at least half an hour, the longer the better, until he he really knows his rotation, eventually it's muscle memory.

    A warrior was my main, and I've just switched over to main my hunter, and I have at least 5 macros on my action bars, with 3 of them having modifiers, they are really, really useful as a Hunter, you can find some here, and more on sites I've mentioned, and specific hunter websites - for emphasis, I used no combat macros on my warrior, binds were enough, but they are almost essential on a hunter.

    I'll edit this later for my macros when I login.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by inferior2 View Post
    Every time there is a thread like this there is a lot of good information but it gets hidden in all the noise. People recommending changing one gem or changing talents etc.

    This is not the problem.

    He is not using his lvl 90 ability on some fights!? He is basically using KC completely randomly. This is what you have to focus on. Gemming talents etc is not why he is underperforming. It is because he doesn't know the basic thing about his class. That is what the answers to this thread should be about. Not if you should use BS or Crows.
    yeah i dont know why ppl focus so much in gear and talents when most of those talents make almost no difference on a player like the one ppl is trying to help out.

    the only thing he need to change ATM is just this.


    KC on CD, thats it.

    everything on CD, manage to do that then you can worry about min maxing.

    if he want to go, ToTH and BS to reduce keybinds, thats fine is a minor dps decrease, he can gain way more by just hitting his abilities on CD as he should be.

    - - - Updated - - -

    heck even leaving focus fire up the whole fight wont make a diference in his DPS.

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