Objective Opinion of Gw2 - share your thoughts/challenge mine

[evofa]

Slow development in comparison to what or whom?

darling, you're being silly. i'm not writing a thesis paper here. i'm initiating a discussion. it's implicit that when i say "slow development" or "poor pvp infrastructure" i'm comparing to what the designers promised (gw2 becoming an esports/having a pvp basis, the current rate of progress is not sufficient to achieve this goal, therefore it is slow), as well as the standard set by the industry ie. the parameters that make a pvp game competitive and functional ie. matchmaking, balance, depth of gameplay ect.

again you are the one who refuses to counter my points, and instead try to poke holes in them with semantics.

to use the pizza analogy: "dellisio's frozen pizza is nasty, it's doughy, uses cheap processed cheese and has too much garlic"

to which you respond: "what is a pizza?" or "who are you to define what pizza is or isn't?"

believe it or not there are properties that a good pizza possesses, just like there are properties that a competitive pvp game possesses and there is little ambiguity as to what those properties are.


What evidence do you have of business model adversely effecting gameplay or operation the game directly or indirectly?

- feel free to dig through the spvp forum to see Jon explain how they have a pvp development team of 3 people. it logically follows that they only have such a small labor force because of a shortage of funds. i suppose that's a bit of an assumption, but i don't think it's an unreasonable one.



tdlr you're drowning yourself in semantics.

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if you don't play a game, does it matter to you what it does?

i did say i played the game occasionally, want it to succeed, and think it has potential. why are you so defensive?

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at least this post makes it clear what the point of this thread was. and how laughable describing it as an "objective opinion" is.

are you directly comparing what GW2 does for free every 2 weeks with what WoW does every 3 months for $45? In 3 months GW2 has 7 or 8 living world updates. the laughable thing isnt how much content GW2 produces in this time (compared to the cost) its how little WoW does (compared to its cost).

hell, if my company was getting $250m income every three months, and all i put out was a patch with some dailies and a raid tier if you were lucky, i would personally be ashamed. that is enough income to produce one or two brand new AAA MMOs from scratch.

but keep telling yourself that GW2 is what is wrong in the world of MMOs.

the idiot is strong in this one. i never mentioned WoW, i made my critique completely independent of it, until YOU brought it up. did i not say the reason gw2 has such stagnant content is because they don't have the income that a game like WoW does? did i not say this is part of the problem, as to why there isn't enough content? do you not see the number of people who enjoy and play the game but still criticize living story, since it's essentially new dailies?

[Drakhar]

are you directly comparing what GW2 does for free every 2 weeks with what WoW does every 3 months for $45? In 3 months GW2 has 7 or 8 living world updates. the laughable thing isnt how much content GW2 produces in this time (compared to the cost) its how little WoW does (compared to its cost).

Objective response: apples to oranges
Douchey subjective response: The most laughable thing is actually ANet's QA department. Blizzard releases, albeit slow, are of exponentially greater size/quality/polish.

[Huehuecoyotl]

darling, you're being silly.

well done. patronising and sexist, in one sentence. you are not likely to get much of a discussion going like that. but then that isnt what you actually want, is it?

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Objective response: apples to oranges
Douchey subjective response: The most laughable thing is actually ANet's QA department. Blizzard releases, albeit slow, are of exponentially greater size/quality/polish.

very true. i remember the high quality of the Cata release. no bugs there, oh no.

[Valeron]

i did say i played the game occasionally, want it to succeed, and think it has potential. why are you so defensive?

I suppose that is the danger of not using quotes in my posts. It wasn't really a reply to you but a general question. I see quite a few people come into game forums, spout one or two lines and then leave. Most of them never played the game so why the need for them to comment on a game they never play. I don't go into the wow section of the forum to comment on that game since I haven't played that for over 3 years.

[NatePsy]

I think the Living World Story is harsh on people just wanting to go in there and relax, kill shit and not have to worry so much about mobs killing you if not careful. That's probably the only complaint I have about GW2

[rhandric]

now you're the one talking nonsense. you can't possibly compare living story content to what WoW has pumped out. that's ludicrous. WoW has a subscription because it offers an incredibly amount of content compared to GW2, and i say that as someone who has absolutely no interest in WoW, i find the combat boring and the graphics outdated. you are making a lot of assumptions about what WoW can and can't do with their profit, and yet you act like Anet isn't a business. i assure you the same pressures Blizzard has to make profits are felt by Anet. if WoW had the content progression GW2 does, it would have failed a long long time ago.

imagine having essentially new dailies and a 2 5 man dungeons over a year and a half for WoW. can you imagine the uproar?

i think this is exactly the type of thing that i meant by people who are deluded. if you think living story content is up to par with what WoW does every few months, then you clearly can't think straight.

Well, I haven't read past this post yet, but I saw this and had to comment: the target audience for WoW content (mostly raids, with a smattering of dailies/new outdoor areas) is different from the intended target audience of GW2 (where open-world content is the bulk of content). This should be obvious to anyone who's played both games. That's also completely ignoring the fact that only a small portion of the WoW population raids - sure, a large portion run LFR, but...well, that's a completely different discussion

If WoW were to produce the same type (open-world) of content at the same pace as GW2, a (silent) majority of players would actually like that -- but based on how long even that content takes them (see, patches 5.1, 5.3 - about 3 months), well, it'd be a huge redirection for them for starters. As far as staying power/longevity of content goes, any open-world content WoW has added, throughout the life of the game, has had a 1-2 month lifespan before being abandoned by all but a small portion of players.

[Fencers]

i'm initiating a discussion.

You are ranting on shortcomings you feel the game has.

it's implicit that when i say "slow development" or "poor pvp infrastructure" i'm comparing to what the designers promised

No, it's not implicit. There is nothing you outlined that would suggest such. In fact, you did not define any parameters at all. You just told us how you feel.

I am fairly certain Arenanet never have stated GW2 has a PVP basis. Proof, example, citation?

to use the pizza analogy: "dellisio's frozen pizza is nasty, it's doughy, uses cheap processed cheese and has too much garlic"

That you had been as concise in your description and outline of poor game mechanisms as your assessment of pizza!

And it is very valid and appropriate to ask, What is the goal of the pizza?

Not all pizza is meant to be crisp. Some pizzas are purposefully doughy. Such as Chicago square cut style pizza. Which is in contrast to NY style pizza, St. Louis cracker cut pizza and California style pizza.

Which is ignoring deep dish pizza and Chicago deep dish specifically as well!

To discuss the properties of a good pizza, we need to know what we are evaluating, how, why and the intent.

This is as true for pizza as video games, art, music, literature and all works created by humanity.

[evofa]

You are ranting on shortcomings you feel the game has.

No, it's not implicit. There is nothing you outlined that would suggest such. In fact, you did not define any parameters at all. You just told us how you feel.

I am fairly certain Arenanet never have stated GW2 has a PVP basis. Proof, example, citation?

That you had been as concise in your description and outline of poor game mechanisms as your assessment of pizza!

And it is very valid and appropriate to ask, What is the goal of the pizza?

Not all pizza is meant to be crisp. Some pizzas are purposefully doughy. Such as Chicago square cut style pizza. Which is in contrast to NY style pizza, St. Louis cracker cut pizza and California style pizza.

Which is ignoring deep dish pizza and Chicago deep dish specifically as well!

To discuss the properties of a good pizza, we need to know what we are evaluating, how, why and the intent.

This is as true for pizza as video games, art, music, literature and all works created by humanity.

actually dellisio markets itself as "rustic italian style pizza" and again i caught you in your attempt to derail the topic. there is nothing in that statement that has anything to do with deep dish pizza. this is an issue of reading comprehension on your part. it clearly zones in on italian style pizzas, that are when done authentically, with crisp crust, reserved spice use, fresh tomato sauce ect. just like a pvp game must contain proper competitive format depth of combat ect. i have absolutely no issue talking to a dota pvp'er or sc2 pvp'er or wow pvp'er as to what is essential for a good pvp game, just as a chef can talk to another chef about proper italian pizza.

your line of reasoning results in endless regressions on to what the nature of things are, while being not being pragmatic. have you ever watched a cooking show? the properties of a good italian pizza are set in stone, there is no evaluating "how why and the intent". nonsense.

if you just went on the gw2 website, you can find the tab "competitive pvp", as well as the plethora of youtube videos on Anets site, that explore their intent to create a game with a strong competitive pvp purpose.

i'm starting to think you just don't know anything about gw2.

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well done. patronising and sexist, in one sentence. you are not likely to get much of a discussion going like that. but then that isnt what you actually want, is it?

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very true. i remember the high quality of the Cata release. no bugs there, oh no.

rofl, there's absolutely nothing sexist about calling someone darling, or love, or sister. i also NEVER mentioned WoW until you brought it up. i'm a little embarrassed for you frankly.

[rhandric]

i'm starting to think you just don't know anything about gw2.

How cute. You must be Pot

[Huehuecoyotl]

rofl, there's absolutely nothing sexist about calling someone darling, or love, or sister. i also NEVER mentioned WoW until you brought it up. i'm a little embarrassed for you frankly.

okay, then go and say "darling, you're being silly" to people in the real world. go and say it to a female cop. see how well people react to that.

oh, and all of those perceived "shortcomings" that you have come up with had implied "and WoW does this better" attached to them. you talked about content, and how poor it was compared to "expansions". you talked about how the payment model was so poor compared to a subscription model. you heavily implied the comparison with WoW, so heavily that your agenda wasnt really very subtle. now you are just resorting to insulting the people shooting holes in your argument. i dont doubt that this is a post or two from being shut down by the mods, because the argument you set out to start isnt helpful.

[Smitzelplix]

World of Warcraft is one of the cheapest hobbies that actually requires money out there.

This is true, but I also find it to be a waste of money as well in my opinion. The problem I have with WoW and most subscription based games is their large focus on raids. I don't raid and never have, not even LFR entices me to give raiding a try, so when the game(s) start falling into the pattern of where the only substantial content released is raids then I stop subbing. Now I do like WoW enough to buy the latest expansion and reach the new level cap but when they get into the pattern of releasing raids as the only substantial content, which they do every expansion, then I go elsewhere to spend my time and money until the new WoW expansion is released.

Now as to the OP's point about sub content vs GW2's living story content I'll agree that subscription MMO content is more substantial, but I rather play the living story content than pay to not play WoW's and other subscription based games' raid content.

[Gadgette]

I posted this in another gw2 thread, but i wanted to have more people criticize/challenge my thoughts. i have a broad back and welcome criticism, it's the only way to refine your arguments/thoughts. i realize this isn't organized too well, but i think i hit a lot of the key notes as to why i think gw2 let me, and many people down. i also realize a lot of people love/enjoy the game and i don't wish to take anything away from that.

For someone who wants their thoughts and ideas challenged, you go on the defensive very quickly if they do not blindly agree with you. In nearly every response where someone has voiced a different opinion something you've attempted to belittle them in one way or another. This then continues with ranting on without stopping to comprehend what people like Fencers are saying.

Trying to have an actual debate type conversation where the initiator resorts to using 'idiot, you're delusional, I feel sorry for you' type retorts is immature and not remotely productive.

[evofa]

For someone who wants their thoughts and ideas challenged, you go on the defensive very quickly if they do not blindly agree with you. In nearly every response where someone has voiced a different opinion something you've attempted to belittle them in one way or another. This then continues with ranting on without stopping to comprehend what people like Fencers are saying.

Trying to have an actual debate type conversation where the initiator resorts to using 'idiot, you're delusional, I feel sorry for you' type retorts is immature and not remotely productive.

yea i called him an idiot because addressing someone as darling isn't sexist; and i often do say it in real life not in formal settings like a cop or a professional setting (as that idiot is trying to suggest, there is such thing as social awareness) but to friends. fencer's opinion is unique in this thread. i like how you're trying to characterize me as dismissive of other people's arguments, when i've acknowledged the people who appreciate the living story, and repeatedly said i appreciate their opinion/fulfillment. in your previous post you complain about how this is another wow vs gw2 thread, which if you actually read the original post, doesn't mention anything about wow, in fact the first page of this thread doesn't mention wow, and the only time i did was in reference to the subscription model facilitating more manpower, and therefore more tangible content, there is no direct comparison what so ever. you could substitute wow for rift, if you feel better, rift also has a subscription model and produces regular content. the only time i said i feel sorry for someone is for those who sit in zergs all day and smash buttons, not anyone in this thread. i don't sugar coat things, judging by how poor your reasoning faculties are, i'ld say you're pretty much an idiot yourself.

[Meledelion]

Slow development in comparison to what or whom? What is the measure or control you are using to make this declarative statement?
Proof? Also what relevance is this to gameplay?
What makes things such as skyhammer or conquest maps poor? Is there is an permanent error in operation or contradiction in design?
Proof? Also what relevance is this to gameplay?

Slow development in the sense of what was promised before launch and still isn't implemented.
A great example are working leaderboards. Only recently have they finally added decay. There's also only been what 1tournament hosted by a-net?

Not just skyhammer, all "new" maps are very poorly designed. They are designed in such a way that certain classes absolutely dominate the maps.

Skyhammer is heaven for knockback/pull classes against which there is nothing you can do.
Another issue with the map is that the actual skyhammer can not be dodged/evaded. No matter what you do you will get hit, this greatly diminishes the value of "skill".

You can do this for each and every other map too, run orbs heavily favors guardians/engineers who can literally block all attacks for the duration of the run to the dom point.

The map with snow is by far the best new map but even then it's horrible. People just fight in groups all day long with close to no tactical play. It also heavily favors classes with blink abilities which is again poor design since highly mobile classes become even more mobile (like that was needed...)

The best proof is probably that none of the new maps have ever been featured in any tournament. NOT ONCE!

[Karizee]

if you don't play a game, does it matter to you what it does?

Obviously he's freakin' terrified, he's looking at that pre-expac content drought in WoW during which time GW2 will drop ~20 content patches.

[nevermore]

... and those "20 content patches" will cover about what, half of an average WoW patch? Yeahhhh.

can we just tone down the borderline delusional fanboy-ism a notch or two?

[Karizee]

... and those "20 content patches" will cover about what, half of an average WoW patch? Yeahhhh.

can we just tone down the borderline delusional fanboy-ism a notch or two?

Oh please, take those 2 raids you got this year and break it into 2 week sections. What would you get? One boss every two weeks? Maybe? More like 1/2 a boss every 2 weeks, lol.

[Svifnymr]

1) I almost feel like arena net put a hell of a lot of work into the game, released it and then simply let it sail off into the sunset.

I think they didn't finish everything before launch and are still formating some of that stuff and releasing it. They're still playing catchup on some things and it shows in some ways. They're doing this while still advancing the game though. This is pretty much "standard" for every MMO release I've paid attention to.

I think they did an excellent job of making modular tools so they can add content quickly.

2) Arena Net believes the living story of one's character and alts is the next xpac and they are greatly mistaken and incorrect about this. I am shocked, they haven't at least provided more cosmetic armor for a small transaction fee.

I"m not sure what you mean on the second part, there's a lot of cosmetic armor for fees? They're still tweaking the living story I think, and we'll see how it plays out long term vs an expansion.

3) A lot of people applaud the "no sub fee" business model, but the fact no one ever points out is that without a sub fee there is little or no commitment to the game. Therefore, gameplay sort of resembles all the populous of a desert.

I assume you mean commitment of the players. You are right in some ways, you have players coming and going. When a new event starts, it is flooded with folks, a week later it can be empty. Compare and contrast this with the added zones in WoW or other MMO's though, and you'll see it's pretty similar. The difference is in scale, Timeless Isle may last 2-3 weeks when the next content patch is in 3-4 months (or, 8-9 months in the pre-expac lull) vs lasting 1 week and new content in 1-3 weeks.

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And YOU are dodging the topic with personal attacks. In the lifetime of ONE expansion, WoW churns out more content than GW2 did since release. During lifetime of MoP, WoW released 2 full raids, a number of new scenarios, two new outdoor areas, complete with questing content. Two world events, complete with questing content. Two new gameplay modes (Heroic scenarios, FLEX Raids).

Let's see what GW2 released in the same time.

Mists was September, GW2 August, both of 2012. Content is not directly comparable, I guess, is Timeless Isle the equal of Southsun Cove? Certainly personal instances are the equal of Scenarios, many of which have occurred. Fractal equals a raid? There were no WoW dungoens added in that years, and GW2 doesn't have raids. Does Tequatl figure into things?

Certainly, we're not saying WoW's daily quests added in one patch are the equal of the many many Clicky Adventures that GW2 has added?

As I said before, I don't mind sub-fees in principle, but if you're not getting new content each month for that $15, I think you're being shafted. This has nothing to do with GW2 though, that's a fault of WoW's and other sub games. GW2 gives plenty of content, even compared to WoW's lethargic pace, and it's paid for via optional purchases. That's ignoring the unknown amount of time that WoW players will have no new content before the expac drops.

[Gadgette]

yea i called him an idiot because addressing someone as darling isn't sexist; and i often do say it in real life not in formal settings like a cop or a professional setting (as that idiot is trying to suggest, there is such thing as social awareness) but to friends. fencer's opinion is unique in this thread. i like how you're trying to characterize me as dismissive of other people's arguments, when i've acknowledged the people who appreciate the living story, and repeatedly said i appreciate their opinion/fulfillment. in your previous post you complain about how this is another wow vs gw2 thread, which if you actually read the original post, doesn't mention anything about wow, in fact the first page of this thread doesn't mention wow, and the only time i did was in reference to the subscription model facilitating more manpower, and therefore more tangible content, there is no direct comparison what so ever. you could substitute wow for rift, if you feel better, rift also has a subscription model and produces regular content. the only time i said i feel sorry for someone is for those who sit in zergs all day and smash buttons, not anyone in this thread. i don't sugar coat things, judging by how poor your reasoning faculties are, i'ld say you're pretty much an idiot yourself.

I hate to be 'that person' but please do some form of paragraphing, this mess of text is a nightmare.

Anyway, you proved my point that you get defensive with such blinding validation it's incredible, someone does not agree with you and you call them an idiot. You seem to have a very hard time grasping what people are trying to tell you as well. Perhaps before jumping on those that respond, stop and read the posts, think about it a few times, then respond. You haven't rationally responded to those who have challenged you to prove your 'facts' with actual facts. Instead of backing up your claims it's a run around in circles with nothing to show for it other than ending in insults, which if you haven't noticed only you are doing.

Rift is free to play with an optional perk fee, so what are you talking about? Sub fees mean absolutely nothing, learn that. If games that are free to play or buy to play can put out content equal or greater in size than a behemoth like Blizzard, then something is wrong. Be it with Blizzard, Trion, EA, or anyone else, a sub fee does not result in balance, updates, or anything else. You pay that fee for the privilege to play their game, absolutely nothing more. 'Quality' is also subjective, a cost for it or no cost doesn't mean the same to the next person. And obviously you haven't stopped to notice that Blizzard, Trion, EA, etc have had massive layoffs over the last few years. So there again, regular income with a $15 sub fee does not mean more manpower to work on a game.

[evofa]

Oh please, take those 2 raids you got this year and break it into 2 week sections. What would you get? One boss every two weeks? Maybe? More like 1/2 a boss every 2 weeks, lol.

you are trying way too hard to fit GW2 in the WoW-paradigm; like i said, the only way i think it is fair to compare GW2 and WoW is simply in the way players money translates to content. in WoW, or Rift, or any other sub-based mmo, you have a guaranteed influx of content, while with a B2P gem-shop model, you have very very very slow and very very small influx of content over a larger period of time because the funds aren't there to maintain a large development force.

you can criticize the quality of WoW content, maybe it isn't even enough for the amount of money they make, all valid, but it is prodigiously larger than what GW2 has, or even can produce.

it's like comparing the exports of Belgium and the US. The US has an economy that dwarfs that of Beligum, it exports amounts on the scale of orders of magnitude more than Belgium, simply because Belgium is smaller, has less resources ect. yes you can prefer Belgian chocolate over american chocolate or that belgian goods have better quality but that doesn't change the reality of the size of the export/economy.

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I hate to be 'that person' but please do some form of paragraphing, this mess of text is a nightmare.

Anyway, you proved my point that you get defensive with such blinding validation it's incredible, someone does not agree with you and you call them an idiot. You seem to have a very hard time grasping what people are trying to tell you as well. Perhaps before jumping on those that respond, stop and read the posts, think about it a few times, then respond. You haven't rationally responded to those who have challenged you to prove your 'facts' with actual facts. Instead of backing up your claims it's a run around in circles with nothing to show for it other than ending in insults, which if you haven't noticed only you are doing.

Rift is free to play with an optional sub fee if you want to, so what are you talking about? Sub fees mean absolutely nothing, learn that. If games that are free to play or buy to play can put out content equal or greater in size than a behemoth like Blizzard, then something is wrong. Be it with Blizzard, Trion, EA, or anyone else, a sub fee does not result in balance, updates, or anything else. You pay that fee for the privilege to play their game, absolutely nothing more. 'Quality' is also subjective, a cost for it or no cost doesn't mean the same to the next person. And obviously you haven't stopped to notice that Blizzard, Trion, EA, etc have had massive layoffs over the last few years. So there again, regular income with a $15 sub fee does not mean more manpower to work on a game.

i called you an idiot not because you don't agree with me, but because you quote mined and straw-man'ed my argument, and i don't really know why you can't grasp the distinction.

what games that are free to play have put out content equal or greater in size than Blizzard? are you really saying there is no correlation between subscription business model and content? i'm waiting for you to supply your evidence for this assertion. are you really suggestion SWTOR or LOTRO have produced more content than WoW? I mean seriously? Do you even know why SWTOR declined so quickly 2-3 months after launch?

Quality is not subjective i'm afraid. Happiness, fulfillment, enjoyment is subjective. a Sony TV is a better quality product than a chinese knockoff, or some obscure electronics company.

lets take the pvp aspect of GW2, any pvp gamer who plays the game will be able to list the issues with it. there is no ambiguity about it. there is nothing subjective about it. a pvp game needs to have matchmaking, depth, proper maps, ladders, ect. you can enjoy and love the pvp in GW2, but that doesn't change that any of the facts about it.