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  1. #1

    Keeping Current 5 Mans Challenging

    I see it all to often, especially in MoP where as soon as we outgear 5 mans they become faceroll easy. For those of us who don't raid but enjoy group activities this kind of saps some of the fun out of these runs. So what if with the current 5 man dungeons (this can transfer to WOD as well) the boss abilities don't do X damage but instead does % of max health damage.
    With those abilities that are supposed to be deadly can remain deadly, the ones that are supposed to hurt a lot still do no matter what your gear is. It would reward avoiding these abilities as well as punishing those who don't. As soon as the dungeon is no longer relevant, could be a certain amount of time into an expansion, the next major patch, or even the next expansion entirely, then switch to this ability does X damage.
    That way if people are leveling alts and just doing those for basic sets of gear it would be easier than when you tried to do it when it was relevant.
    What are your thoughts and opinions?

  2. #2
    Isn't that the whole point of challenge mode dungeons? No matter how much gear you get, things are scaled so that the challenge level remains the same?

  3. #3
    I would rather have them faceroll easy and know I will complete them, than have to wonder if I'm going to have to drop group due to random LFD idiocy.

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Kharli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khime View Post
    Isn't that the whole point of challenge mode dungeons? No matter how much gear you get, things are scaled so that the challenge level remains the same?
    Indeed, and no you can not outgear the challenge mode dungeons, well statwise you sort of can but that is more for min-maxers than anything tbh.

    oh and this tbh. i don't want to do LFR so i'l do my daily HC and be done with it, it goes quickly and done 80 valor.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimlow View Post
    I would rather have them faceroll easy and know I will complete them, than have to wonder if I'm going to have to drop group due to random LFD idiocy.

  5. #5
    I saw a cool idea that suggested they apply the technology of ilevel scaling from Challenge Modes to every dungeon in the game. In theory, a level 100 could queue for a random pre-60 dungeon and pop into, say ragefire chasms, with 4 other characters all scaled to be level 15. Of the 5 in the group, there would be a mix of any level from 15-100 all scaled to appear as level 15, but with the respective abilities of their class. The goal of this system is two-pronged: alleviate queue problems for lesser-populated levels and give lvl 90's heaps of content.

    While I think this could be really cool/fun, it would obviously require some massive technology improvements and major balancing. Would it be fair for a capped mage to be able to use all of his spells in a group with a lvl 15 mage who has 4? Additionally, I would expect loot to be a problem. Though they could just use the current LFR auto-roll RNG thing and reward X player with a piece of gear, it would be difficult and time consuming for designers to create enough loot for every dungeon boss to drop lvl 100 gear. Perhaps rewarding satchels on boss drops like the "Call to Arms" thing for LFD/R would incentive people to run it.

    While this particular system is a really tough system to implement, I'm eager to see how they begin to expand the itemlvl-scaling technology to expand content for players

  6. #6
    The problem with dungeon difficulty is the need to cater to pre-raid players.
    You outgear or outskill the content aimed at players who are not you, and that will make content seem trivial.
    Well it cant cater to everyone, and not as much content as the "skilled" would like can be catered to that difficulty without penalising or intimidating anyone new or inexperienced more than the stupid community already does.
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    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  7. #7
    Would like to see a couple of dungeons, maybe 1 or 2 per new raid tier, that are substantially more difficult than others and which offer much greater rewards. The old Magisters Terrance comes to mind. These more difficult dungeons would drop gear on par with LFR or flex, would require a premade group to enter (no LFD) and offer increased valor. Keep the current.....faceroll....mode 5-mans for freshly level capped players and for those that just want to get some valor. The only problem with Magisters Terrance when it was current was the need for so much CC when only a couple of classes could bring it. That obviously isn't an issue now, as every class has access to CC, damage reduction and control abilities.

    I am a heroic raider, but even I would really like to see some avenue of achieving raid quality gear that doesn't require a 25man raid. Make it difficult as hell to get (skillwise, not just a 30 day grind or a 0.01% drop chance), but give us some incentive to play the game during the week when there are no raids scheduled.
    Last edited by Skarssen; 2013-12-09 at 05:57 PM.

  8. #8
    Challenge mode cant be outgeared, true, however it is only a time trial run at best. It doesn't offer anything other than that. Plus you cant random group that. You need 5 people already before you can even enter. So it doesn't quite fit what I'm talking about

  9. #9
    Implying that MoP 5 man's weren't faceroll easy the minute you set foot in them?

    Don't hold your breath on 5 mans ever being significant again. There's a very large vocal group that insists on some myth that 5 mans were never meant to be end game, never meant to be anything other than 15 minute straight hallway VP dispensers, despite the existence of scenarios to fill exactly that gap.

    Blizzard listens, and of course says "cool, less work for us!".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    Would like to see a couple of dungeons, maybe 1 or 2 per new raid tier, that are substantially more difficult than others and which offer much greater rewards. The old Magisters Terrance comes to mind.
    I had suggested this as well. The problem is, of course, that this hardest dungeon will be viewed as mandatory rather than optional by the playerbase, and they'll screech to get it nerfed, despite having other easier options.

    See: hHoR.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jimlow View Post
    I would rather have them faceroll easy and know I will complete them, than have to wonder if I'm going to have to drop group due to random LFD idiocy.
    Make some friends. LFD should be a last ditch effort for finding a dungeon group.

    As for challenge modes. I don't see the appeal in them because in the end they're just timed runs. I miss the days of exploring dungeons. Now it's become a race to the finish line.

  11. #11
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    What happens when you have a way geared tank, and anew 90 healer? Does it scale ot the tank? If he's getting hit for 200k hits at a time, how does the new healer keep up with him?

    Scaling sounds good on paper, but there's all sorts of practical problems.

  12. #12
    eschat - you could do an average ilevel for the group. Wouldn't be perfect, but would be close enough.

    The bigger issue is that making the dungeon harder without making the loot better wont' work. Why would I, decked in epics and with a 544 ilevel on my hunter, go into a 5 man that a) is challenging AND b) drops 463 gear? I wouldn't (aside from helping a friend).

    5 mans in vanilla and TBC were valid non-raiding endgame because the gear in them was quite good UNLESS you raided. Badges (the equivalent of VP) didn't happen until very late in TBC and some of the blues were very good for their level. In Wrath and to some degree Cata, the later 5 mans were useful and challenging because they were designed for people with some gear and also dropped some reasonable gear.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apolyc View Post
    I see it all to often, especially in MoP where as soon as we outgear 5 mans they become faceroll easy. For those of us who don't raid but enjoy group activities this kind of saps some of the fun out of these runs. So what if with the current 5 man dungeons (this can transfer to WOD as well) the boss abilities don't do X damage but instead does % of max health damage.
    With those abilities that are supposed to be deadly can remain deadly, the ones that are supposed to hurt a lot still do no matter what your gear is. It would reward avoiding these abilities as well as punishing those who don't. As soon as the dungeon is no longer relevant, could be a certain amount of time into an expansion, the next major patch, or even the next expansion entirely, then switch to this ability does X damage.
    That way if people are leveling alts and just doing those for basic sets of gear it would be easier than when you tried to do it when it was relevant.
    What are your thoughts and opinions?
    sure. so long as with the scaling difficulty comes scaling loot for those of us who DO raid and ENJOY quick runs with the gear we have earned through applying ourselves.


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  14. #14
    If your gear would be scaled to whatever location you happen to be at the time.. what's the point of having gear at all? It will be "the intended level for said dungeon" ... for questing you don't need gear.
    Soloing places also gets impossible, i cannot solo Kael'thas as a level 70 in TK gear.

  15. #15
    It was simply a dumb idea to remove "real" heroic dungeons and call the "normal" ones heroic for some reason.

  16. #16
    As long as they are accessible via LFD, they will never be hard again. Cataclysm proved this.

  17. #17
    Pretty sure I read something somewhere saying that they are going to make heroics more heroic again for Warlords.

    I'd like to see normal mode as difficult as heroics are now, and heroics made more challenging again, TBC style. Not accessible via dungeon finder, but you can form your own groups with the new group finder tool (Oqueue style).

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickletusk View Post
    Pretty sure I read something somewhere saying that they are going to make heroics more heroic again for Warlords.
    Yes.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    WoD will (re)introduce the normal and heroic difficulties for 5man's at max level
    ...
    Right off the bat, we can clearly say that WoD heroics will be much harder than MoP heroics.
    ...
    we’re not actually planning in making them as hard as the hardest heroics of all time, like the hardest from TBC, or GB and Stonecore from Cata, but nothing is set in stone yet, we’re still thinking about what will be the right difficulty level for anything WoD, and your continued feedback will definitely help u
    ...
    We also think that we can rework a little bit the whole concept of challenge modes...I’d love to hear what would be the “perfect challenge mode” for you, specifically in regards to reward structure and gameplay philosophy concepts.
    ...
    Our current goal is to make WoD heroics similar to the difficulty level you had in Vortex Pinnacle heroic for example.
    ...
    it’s not really that fun to read through the full dungeon journal and memorize everything before fighting any boss, it’s much cooler when something is so well implemented that even if it’s completely unexpected you can still try to “guess” what it does and adapt, react to it on-the-spot
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8882288756#13
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...ngeons-in-wod/

    via

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/12/11/wa...heroic-5-mans/
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...HS-Beta-Update

    Discussion thread here:

    Warlords of Draenor 5-man Mythic dungeons. Are you for or against it?

  19. #19
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    Pipe dream here, but what I would like to see is Challenge Mode scaling applied to Heroic dungeons....spread out across all dungeons in the game. The drops are adjusted to Blue quality of the level of the looter (say, a lvl 20, 45, and 70 are in a group, all adjusted to a "global" level a la level syncing, and all roll on a drop, such as a 2h mace. The whoever won would get that mace with stats appropriate for that level) and award JP/bonus exp.
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  20. #20
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    I would love to see hard heroics again. MoP heroics were too easy, it was really a shame.
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