View Poll Results: What do you think?

Voters
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  • Awesome!

    1,212 70.84%
  • Stupid!

    169 9.88%
  • Birds are my favorite animals if they are penguins.

    330 19.29%
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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glitch View Post
    Well they did that in Cataclysm, can't say it worked out well, guess we shall see:P
    This is what I was thinking here, they did this in cata and openly admitted that it was one of the many reasons for the great amount of sub-loss. Now they are doing it again .... I don't see how they learned any sort of lessons from Cata as they said they did. Looks like I'll be playing a DPS again for WoD and not a healer, with how morons are in the LFD? Not worth the time and effort to even try to heal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Madruga View Post
    Maybe it would be better to make Normal 5-man as the proper gearing path to raiding, as put Heroics as something more optional, thus enbaling them to be quite harder and require a pre-made.
    I actually like that idea, making heroic dungeons extremely hard but not mandatory for gearing would make it so people could have their challenging content, but at the same time let people skip it who don't care for that kind of content.
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  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It depends on whether there is a reasonable progression path for everyone.

    Also, pre-nerf VP is a lot different from pre-nerf Stonecore or GB. heroic VP actually got buffed a bit in those early changes.
    Prenerf vortex was nightmare(For typical LFG baddies who whined about cata heroics). First boss? chain AoE damage destroying healers followed by second boss with million tornadoes that knock you off the platform and kill you if you get hit. Third boss trash pack was immune to CC(in the triangle), and LFG of course features idiots that gets frizzled to death. The "buff" was bug fix that allowed people to cheeze the first boss by stacking in the middle during tornado phase.
    Last edited by PrairieChicken; 2013-12-12 at 11:41 PM.

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by StrayFox View Post
    Why make heroics and normal dungeons easy at level cap? Its a waste of space. Now they can utilize normal dungeons for the players who want an easier route and heroics for the player who wants a challenging route.
    Because unfortunately, blizzard makes heroics mandatory in the gearing path to even do LFR. Now assume they did your idea, it could work however the complaints about having to go from a raid setting like LFR BACK to a 5 man path just to reach another raid environment would drown the forums out. Yes I know everyone complains about everything, but people (including that 1%) already nerd rage about being "forced" into LFR - Flex - Normal just to do the heroics, there is no way they would agree to LFR - Heroic dungeon - Normals etc.

    For all the complains about casuals whining they want instant gratification right now, I find it humorous that certain groups of people cry about the same shit on a different scale. (Not you mind you, I'm being general in this statement, and not saying you are complaining obviously.) They want into the content THEY want right away without needing to go through X-easy content first, but rather go straight to the hard stuff. Yet it's not ok for people less savvy with hard content to complain they don't want a difficult heroic dungeon because it gets between them and the LFR which was designed FOR That kind of player to start with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Have you seen my posts over the past few days? You should be asking yourself why I'm alive, not why I don't have friends.
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  4. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by Keristrasza View Post
    Because unfortunately, blizzard makes heroics mandatory in the gearing path to even do LFR. Now assume they did your idea, it could work however the complaints about having to go from a raid setting like LFR BACK to a 5 man path just to reach another raid environment would drown the forums out. Yes I know everyone complains about everything, but people (including that 1%) already nerd rage about being "forced" into LFR - Flex - Normal just to do the heroics, there is no way they would agree to LFR - Heroic dungeon - Normals etc.

    For all the complains about casuals whining they want instant gratification right now, I find it humorous that certain groups of people cry about the same shit on a different scale. (Not you mind you, I'm being general in this statement, and not saying you are complaining obviously.) They want into the content THEY want right away without needing to go through X-easy content first, but rather go straight to the hard stuff. Yet it's not ok for people less savvy with hard content to complain they don't want a difficult heroic dungeon because it gets between them and the LFR which was designed FOR That kind of player to start with.
    We will have timeless tag-a-rare game in WoD. Dungeons will not be mandatory for LFR.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Keristrasza View Post
    Because unfortunately, blizzard makes heroics mandatory in the gearing path to even do LFR.
    Not clear they're going to do that in WoD. Not clear AT ALL.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    Prenerf vortex was nightmare(For typical LFG baddies who whined about cata heroics). First boss? chain AoE damage destroying healers followed by second boss with million tornadoes that knock you off the platform and kill you if you get hit. Third boss trash pack was immune to CC(in the triangle), and LFG of course features idiots that gets frizzled to death. The "buff" was bug fix that allowed people to cheeze the first boss by stacking in the middle during tornado phase.
    The first boss had a strategy where everyone could stack in the middle and avoid the vortices. This strategy was disabled. The last boss also had changes made to it that made it harder (Static Cling was added, and some adds were spawned, starting in 4.0.6.)
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  6. #746
    I'm not surprised, I understand why they made MoP heroics easier since they had CMs to take their place but even so I felt they went too far making them easy. A nice balance between Cata and MoP level difficulty would be ideal.

    I mean I loved Cata heroics but clearly they weren't for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    I want heroics to be as hard as they were in TBC days... cataclysm was nice, but it still wasn't as hard.
    I dunno why people say that, Cata heroics were way harder than TBC.

    TBC heroics were mainly hard because of the trash, the fact classes were poorly balanced, many tank classes didn't have the tools to properly hold AoE threat and overall the level of player skill was much lower.
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  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I dunno why people say that, Cata heroics were way harder than TBC.

    TBC heroics were mainly hard because of the trash, the fact classes were poorly balanced, many tank classes didn't have the tools to properly hold AoE threat and overall the level of player skill was much lower.
    While all your points are correct, disagree with the difficulty ranking. The often mentioned Magisters Terrace even with the highly random Arena type "boss" was hard but quite doable if you didn't insist on bringing two DPS warriors and a DPS shaman, hc Shattered Halls was a complete joke. If you got agro as a priest healer, you died. Period. Even people who were able to sleepwalk thru Karazhan regularly wiped several times in that drek hole. And those were guild groups, no PUGs.


    On topic, I find it hilarious they didn't learn their lesson from the beginning of Cata. Even if the resident school dropouts again claim "Peoply didn't quit over hard dungeons", the suits at AB won't be fooled again.

  8. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by thevoicefromwithin View Post
    On topic, I find it hilarious they didn't learn their lesson from the beginning of Cata. Even if the resident school dropouts again claim "Peoply didn't quit over hard dungeons", the suits at AB won't be fooled again.
    They specifically said today it will be Cata Levels of difficult with more focus on learning as you go meaning no more crap where people just plain don't understand, it will be big and red and fiery if its bad. Personally I liked Cata launch dungeons with friends/guildies but hated it with pugs. If they make them that difficult with emphasis on random dungeon finder.... then thats great actually. Also the reason people quit was because you needed those dungeons to progress. In Warlords from what we can tell the Normal End Game Dungeons will be progression toward LFR, and the Heroics will probably drop gear similar to LFR or a little less than it. I like that change as well, only great things can come from that.

  9. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    As long as "harder" Doesn't just mean CC. I felt so bad when we had to kick DKs and warriors in Blackrock caverns in Cataclysm at the start for lack of CC options.
    I don't mind CC, but I don't think that long-duration CC should be required and I like that Blizzard has moved away from using it in PvE situations. Simply because it slows combat down and isn't very fun. Short-duration, non-breaking CC (read: aoe and ST stuns and interrupts) I think should be emphasized more, and already is in CM's.

  10. #750
    I'm not sure why people hate CC. Though I guess its the same reason people hate other stats like hit that don't make their numbers necessarily higher.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Keristrasza View Post
    Because unfortunately, blizzard makes heroics mandatory in the gearing path to even do LFR.
    Not really, if they make level 100 normal dungeons drop gear appropriate to do LFR then you don't have to do Heroics. Heroics are supposed to drop item level gear similar to LFR.

    Blizzard knows that the reason why so many people hated Cata heroics is because:

    A: You had to do them to gear up.

    B: You had to do them through LFD.

    If blizzard makes heroics hard again, most people assume they will make them a optional, but faster, way to gear up as well as making it a pre-made only type of que... similar to heroic scenarios.

    Of course if they kept the same model they have today and just made heroics harder that would be a bad idea, but Blizzard isn't going to make past mistakes. I assume they will make LEVEL CAPPED normal dungeons drop gear for LFR and Heroics drop gear for Normal Raiding. And to keep having hard heroics they will possibly add more dungeons each patch, similar to Halls of Reflection in Wrath.

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Good.

    At this point I do heroics, as a tank, as frost. Why? Because nothing can kill me. I can solo the heroics. They're disgustingly easy and they have been since the start of the expansion.
    That and there is no reason to do them anymore due to scenarios.

  13. #753
    They could make it harder than an Heroic Raid, it doesn't really matter when it ends up being outdated after people get raid gear (which you can get from crafting, from scenarios, from outdoor bosses and from LFR, and regular raid).

    If it's hard, some people will complain it's too hard, if it's easy, other people will complain it's too easy. The real problem with heroic dungeons is that their lifespan is very limited, so in he end, it doesn't really matter.

  14. #754
    Harder heroics only mean something if the entire "gear tier" is set. TBC was best here. Wotlk had potential due to the epics from endbosses & fraction dudes but lost due to justice gear. Cata was just terrible, the items in 5man were boring as hell and felt not worth doing them (ZA/ZG was better but still bad due to valor gear). MOP was worst of all - they screwed justice & valor gear with reputation attunement / daylie quests & the items felt just boring / <1% epic drop chance wtf.

  15. #755
    Voted Awesome because the game needs to be harder so bad players quit or actually have to learn to play the game to get any amount of decent gear be it heroic dungeons or harder content
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  16. #756
    This is a wonderful thing. There's nothing "heroic" about heroics anymore. Roughly half the heroics I run now don't even stop for a break between mobs. I've seen several tanks pull when the healer has less than 10% mana and no one even complains because...10% mana is all you need for those cake bosses.

    On a somewhat related note, and maybe this deserves it's own thread, I dunno, and I don't know exactly how much work this would take on Blizz's part, I can only assume a lot. Anyway...one thing I really hate about the whole game in general is how every mob is always in the same place. I would like to see the mobs in different places, and much more pats walking around in the dungeons. I'm sure it would take plenty of work but I really hate how I know where every tough mob is before I even start the instance.

  17. #757
    Honestly, making heroic dungeons more difficult is a null matter imo. As long as heroic dungeons are a stepping stone into raid content then I'm fine. BUT if Blizz goes back to TBC design and makes heroic 5 mans more difficult than raids then something has gone wrong. The progression IMO should be: Normal dungeons < Heroic dungeons <= Tier 1 raids (LFR/Flex or whatever they end up calling it) < Tier 2 raids (you know, actual raids) < heroic Tier 2 raids.

    So yeah, make heroic dungeons more difficult, but make sure that they remain a stepping stone into actual raids.
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  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    As long as "harder" Doesn't just mean CC. I felt so bad when we had to kick DKs and warriors in Blackrock caverns in Cataclysm at the start for lack of CC options.
    As a resto druid that solo queued the heroics at launch, the groups I was in did not have to kick warriors or DKs in any of the Cata heroics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I dunno why people say that, Cata heroics were way harder than TBC.

    TBC heroics were mainly hard because of the trash, the fact classes were poorly balanced, many tank classes didn't have the tools to properly hold AoE threat and overall the level of player skill was much lower.
    Because there are those of us who feel that way. You are explaining mechanics that players had to deal with and decide they are irrelevant because players dont have to deal with them anymore and therefore BC heroics are easy is a lame argument. What maters is at the time with the game mechanics of the time BC heroics are considered harder all around by a number of players and even Blizzard employees. If you are arguing that trying to bring back exactly BC heroic design in current game mechanics then yes the BC heroics would be easier. The mechanics are easier due to changes that make dealing with the mechanics easier and even trivializing those mechanics. To bring back the punishing trash of BC would likely require even bigger groups and the preference for three CC capable DPS which isnt going to happen.

    All the difficulty of BC heroics was not in the trash. On boss fights players still had to get out of the fire, LoS the boss, spread out, CC, meet enrage timers, deal with adds, and a number of other mechanics that wasnt trivial. Most of the heroic run breakups I have seen was due to failing to bosses and not the trash.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-12-13 at 03:10 AM.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    As a resto druid that solo queued the heroics at launch, the groups I was in did not have to kick warriors or DKs in any of the Cata heroics.
    As a prot pally, who also solo queued heroics at launch I concur. I didn't kick a single person for lack of CC. We always worked with what we had and smart players that knew their classes worked through it.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Bye bye subscriptions, Blizzard doesn't seem to have learned from early Cataclysm.
    Perhaps they lost ppl when the heroics were easy mode too. And have noticed that most ppl looking for something quick and easy would just do a scenario instead.

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