Should gear in LFR be based on performance?

[Heladys]

Something about LFR trinkets being better than past tier heroic, LFR gear ring better than past tier normal. How would you feel if the new "kiddie" roller coaster was better than all the old rollercoasted considered to be adult rides?

Boo effing hoo, that's how I feel. Turning the tables on that viewpoint let's resurrect a traditional heroic raider staple: "The content is right there for you to complete to get the gear if you desire it"

[Giscoicus]

Boo effing hoo, that's how I feel. Turning the tables on that viewpoint let's resurrect a traditional heroic raider staple: "The content is right there for you to complete to get the gear if you desire it"

And when somebody is doing the harder modes they should also be in the easier ones for gear? Oh and they better be accepting of people sucking at everything? That makes total sense.

[mysticx]

So um... how do you plan on determining how well somebody performs? You know, taking into full account factors like gear, how (un)favourable a particular boss is to your spec/class, (lack of) experience, latency, dying due to crummy healing/tanking, so basically everything that can go wrong in any group in the game.

[Giscoicus]

So um... how do you plan on determining how well somebody performs? You know, taking into full account factors like gear, how (un)favourable a particular boss is to your spec/class, (lack of) experience, latency, dying due to crummy healing/tanking, so basically everything that can go wrong in any group in the game.

Well, lack of experience cannot really count. Those who are experiences are better, simple as that. You get better as you have more experience.
LFR bosses are not even close to tightly tunned. Hell melee can sit on Thok with no issue because he doesnt kill people.
The numerical measures could scale with gear or simply be set to entry level for said LFR
Latency is not an excuse. If you have bad latency all the time you are being a leecher.
Dying to healing/tanking would count against healers and tanks, however most things that are fatal in LFR are very easily avoidable.

The thing is, this is for LFR. The damage is low, casts are slow, reaction time is minimal. There are blind and physically handicapped players who raid normal. Please stop trying to make excuses. Bad play is bad play, get better or don't get rewards.

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No. LFR should never be based on performance.

Not going to argue with people regarding who contributes and who doesn't, as it isn't worthwhile whatsoever. But shall try a differing tack..
LFR is for the lowest level of play. For players that cannot get to see the game any other way. People with arthritis in their hands, a physical disability that prevents them being able to utilise both hands fully, maybe even mental impairment or such. . LFR is also designed for them, so they can get to see the game.

Now, if you base everything on performance, and numbers that must be hit, even if you take into account every aspect. Some people might just not be capable of hitting said numbers. Now, under some of the systems proposed, they will be denied gear that they can then equip on their character. Gear, I must add, that is significantly lower level than other raid types, and thus is rather negligible.

Is it fair to deny these people loot and an enjoyment of the game, simply because some people decide their must be an arbitrary "You must be this tall to go on the ride" style nonsense?
Not to my mind. Whilst the numbers of said people might be small, they *are* there, and people seem to always conveniently forget this with some of the prattle.

There is a community of physically and mentally handicapped players who raid normal. Blind players have cleared normal.

Is it fair that some people are leechers in LFR? Those who are there and try hard and do well carry the rest. You are capable of reaching similar numbers in your gear as others. If you are bad you are being deadweight and leeching off of others. Leechers shouldn't be rewarded.

You are pretty much saying that people should be allowed to suck horribly, and ride on the skill of a few, and be rewarded equally.

[Drilnos]

Tanks same as dps but damage taken ratio more important that damage done.

Hehe. Tanks would never taunt off each other again.

It would be better if they simply said they were doing some ultra-sophisticated monitoring system that gauges performance and adjusts the loot drop rate accordingly, and then just not do it. Use the placebo effect. Because let's face it, there is no way anyone would be able to notice the effect even if they did do it. It's the perfect crime.

[Sansnom]

And when somebody is doing the harder modes they should also be in the easier ones for gear? Oh and they better be accepting of people sucking at everything? That makes total sense.

It is your choice to do the easy mode for EXTRA gear. So you should expecting meeting players that are as good as you. That is why they are doing the easiest form of raiding.

If your guild requires you to do LFR to supplement your heroic/normal gear, that is between you and your fellow raiders. This is not Blizzard's requirement.

You are stepping into the easiest form of raiding that Blizzard made which were primary aimed for the a player base that does not have the skill to raid at a higher level. Yet you are complaining about the meeting the very type of players in LFR that it was designed for.

[Giscoicus]

It is your choice to do the easy mode for EXTRA gear. So you should expecting meeting players that are as good as you. That is why they are doing the easiest form of raiding.

If your guild requires you to do LFR to supplement your heroic/normal gear, that is between you and your fellow raiders. This is not Blizzard's requirement.

You are stepping into the easiest form of raiding that Blizzard made which were primary aimed for the a player base that does not have the skill to raid at a higher level. Yet you are complaining about the meeting the very type of players in LFR that it was designed for.

You miss the point. Why would easier content give rewards useful to those in higher content? Undergrads dont go to pre-K classes, why would it make sense for a actual raider to go to LFR? There shouldnt be an advantage for them to be in a lower difficulty. Also, LFR is designed this way, so why should the terribad shitters be surprised to be called terribad shitters by normal+ raiders? They are a target audience of LFR.

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That is not what I said, and you know it. You haven't actually got any argument really. Whilst there may be a tiny community of disabled people raiding, it hardly constitutes possibly alienating anyone who doesn't have access to it. No where have I mentioned leechers, or any other disabled people and their (very impressive) accomplishments within WoW. Sure, they might be able to do it, but does that mean everyone else can? I have read about disabled people climbing mountains, so does that also suddenly mean every single one is capable of doing so?
Again, LFR is for the absolute bare minimum. You do not HAVE to do it, it is there to allow minimal fuss and to see content/acquire a low standard of gear to allow your character to progress.

You still haven't answered the question, just being evasive and trying to counter with some bizarre argument that I have not said in any way shape or form. So please, tell me again, how the proposed systems people are coming up with will not potentially hamper someone who is physically/mentally incapable of hitting a medium/high level of performance.

I am not saying at all that people "should be allowed to suck horribly". No where did I say that, it is simply something you have made up to try and make your very weak argument try and gain some weight. Try again

It doesn't. Because if they are incapable they are leeching off of others. Simple as that. Nobody should be allowed to ride on the backs of others in a random group where people don't go there to carry them. Whether or not you are handicapped is regardless, you are not pulling your weight in a group of randoms. If you were in a guild where people are ready to pick up your slack or help that would be one thing, but you are forcing yourself onto a group and not doing your role. You don't do your job you don't get paid, simple as that.

[Radish Spirit]

Gear rewards are already based on performance. LFR performance awards LFR gear. Normal performance awards Normal gear, and so on. You're asking for something that already exists.

What happened to these forums, seriously? They used to be the best WoW discussion forums available; now we get 9 page threads on a question that could be answered in two sentences and an idea the OP and everyone else knows will never, ever happen in five million years. It's such a pointless, empty circlejerk. It's not even an interesting discussion. Good lord.

[Giscoicus]

Gear rewards are already based on performance. LFR performance awards LFR gear. Normal performance awards Normal gear, and so on. You're asking for something that already exists.

What happened to these forums, seriously? They used to be the best WoW discussion forums available; now we get 9 page threads on a question that could be answered in two sentences and an idea the OP and everyone else knows will never, ever happen in five million years. It's such a pointless, empty circlejerk. It's not even an interesting discussion. Good lord.

Gear is awarded based on the content you are in. The person doing 300k in LFR because they need an offhand and the people doing 18k in LFR because they are horrible or afk get the same reward.

[Thimagryn]

You miss the point. Why would easier content give rewards useful to those in higher content? Undergrads dont go to pre-K classes, why would it make sense for a actual raider to go to LFR? There shouldnt be an advantage for them to be in a lower difficulty. Also, LFR is designed this way, so why should the terribad shitters be surprised to be called terribad shitters by normal+ raiders? They are a target audience of LFR.

It's optional content for those in higher content, not mandatory. It goes the same for dailies, they're optional, not mandatory. The fact that people feel compelled to do them despite hating it is their own choice. If you remove the content from LFR, it would be the same as opting not doing LFR in the first place. There really isn't anything worth changing here.

[Radish Spirit]

Gear is awarded based on the content you are in. The person doing 300k in LFR because they need an offhand and the people doing 18k in LFR because they are horrible or afk get the same reward.

Right, because LFR requires a certain level of perfomance. The person doing 300k in LFR is over-performing. If we give them a better reward, why not rewards for outperforming 5-mans, normal raids, etc.? No.

If a minimum performance level is not met, no rewards are given. Once it is, rewards occur. That's how every raiding level works, why would LFR be different?

[Giscoicus]

It's optional content for those in higher content, not mandatory. It goes the same for dailies, they're optional, not mandatory. The fact that people feel compelled to do them despite hating it is their own choice. If you remove the content from LFR, it would be the same as opting not doing LFR in the first place. There really isn't anything worth changing here.

You don't choose what you are compelled to do. Blizzards decision to hand out more welfare loot and have some of it be ridiculously strong is what compels them. If you remove the stuff from LFR, then you could play to your maximum potential without carrying brain dead shitters to their gear when they cant break 50k at 530 ilvl.

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Right, because LFR requires a certain level of perfomance. The person doing 300k in LFR is over-performing. If we give them a better reward, why not rewards for outperforming 5-mans, normal raids, etc.? No.

If a minimum performance level is not met, no rewards are given. Once it is, rewards occur. That's how every raiding level works, why would LFR be different?

And thats what should happen in LFR. But people in this thread seem to insist that there shouldn't be a minimum performance to get gear, and that those few over preforming should just accept the underpreformers so the underpreformers can get their rewards.

[Thimagryn]

You don't choose what you are compelled to do. Blizzards decision to hand out more welfare loot and have some of it be ridiculously strong is what compels them. If you remove the stuff from LFR, then you could play to your maximum potential without carrying brain dead shitters to their gear when they cant break 50k at 530 ilvl.

Sure you do. As I said, LFR is clearly optional content for higher-end raiders. Flex/Normal and Heroic raiders don't need to do LFR at all, just like no one needs to do their weekly allotment of Dungeon Dailies.

If someone completely outgears LFR and is complaining about having to do it, I have absolutely no sympathy for them. It's not like they don't know what they're getting into.

[Sansnom]

You miss the point. Why would easier content give rewards useful to those in higher content? Undergrads dont go to pre-K classes, why would it make sense for a actual raider to go to LFR? There shouldnt be an advantage for them to be in a lower difficulty. Also, LFR is designed this way, so why should the terribad shitters be surprised to be called terribad shitters by normal+ raiders? They are a target audience of LFR.

I don't think so. You said it yourself. It is useful. Not mandatory. Stop using real world examples. They don't apply. For every example you give, people give can counter example. You want to get a A+? You can do extra evening classes. You increase your chances. But it is your choice. You do not have to.

As I said, if your fellow raiders requires to get gear from the LFR to raid in Normal/Heoric, that is between you and your fellow raiders. Blizzard does not require you to do this.

And why resort to name calling? They are not as good as you. So they are not doing the same content as you. So they are doing the LFR. That gives you the right to insult them because they are not as good you?

[Saxtorph]

You are pretty much saying that people should be allowed to suck horribly, and ride on the skill of a few, and be rewarded equally.

Exactly. You want to deny someone a reward based on your perception of their performance? You're welcome to start a flex/norm/heroic raid group.

[Manhands]

@OP

No, this is not possible. There is no "expected damage" or "expected healing" or, idk, "expected threat/positioning/cd usage".

Ex: A dps might have been spending 90% of their time dealing with mechanics (like, say, doing the belt on siegemaster and cc'ing the bombs fixating on people). What is this person's expected damage? Is it different from someone tunneling on boss? If it isn't, then everyone will ignore mechanics and tunnel. If it is, how different should it be?

In general, what kind of a formula would be used to determine someone's "expected damage"? Should it be lower if you used cc? No, probably not, since then people would put cc abilities in their castsequence macro and always get loot. So should it be cc abilities used on specific mobs? Uh oh, this formula would be different for every fight. What if they screwed a formula up and didn't give loot to people who still did decently?

Don't even get me started with healing. That disc priest who is overgeared doing 70% of healing would ensure all the non-absorb healer would get no loot.

The idea seems simple at first, because when you look at the dps doing way less than half the rest of the raid, you can't help say the word "carried" and "unfair" when they get loot. You want a way to motivate them to try. And they might be trying, they are just new (or suck really bad...bad keybinds...clicking...poor UI and bad target switching...w/e). Since there's no way to create a definitive line - "Must do 40k dps" - and no way to create a fair formula, this can never be.

[Fiana]

Yes. Reward should be based on performance.

Can you create an algorithm to fairly judge the performance? No. No one can and no will be able to in the nearest few decades.
There is no single game on the market which was able to calculate your performance and it's doubtful that one will be introduced in the nearest feature.
So just leave it as is.

Another point is that LFR is not the real raiding. It's just a primitive carrot on stick to keep baddies in the game. They should receive their reward regardless of how bad they are. This difficulty WAS MADE FOR THEM. Real players have real difficulties.

[Drilnos]

And thats what should happen in LFR. But people in this thread seem to insist that there shouldn't be a minimum performance to get gear, and that those few over preforming should just accept the underpreformers so the underpreformers can get their rewards.

As an over-performer who routinely does as much dps as up to ten other people per run, yes. That is what I do.

When you enter an LFR run you are entering the world of the LFR folk. You are a stranger in a strange land. And yet your very presence disrupts the functioning of that world. If you weren't around, the raid would have to try harder, wipe more, strategize more, and eventually get it down. You, with your gear and experience, dramatically lower the minimum performance requirement across the board. It is your fault this happens, not theirs. The only way you can force them to try harder is by leaving.

This is not to say that you shouldn't go in there. Just try having a little respect for the other people in there, even if they are going about it all wrong. You're not seeing them in their natural state. Turn off your meters if you have to. There are some perks to being a decent human being and ripping off 300k dps. For one thing, you're very likely to get a battle rez if you or a tank screws up.

[MoanaLisa]

I agreed with most of your suggestions but you lost me right there. Say I get imprisoned on the Pride fight and the group failed to free me. Why should I get a reduced chance at loot for that? Blizzard would either have to eliminate mechanics like that altogether or the penalty would have to be applied group-wide for every death. The latter would create even more problems because players would leave at the drop of a hat if they thought the group was going to reduce their chances of looting. Besides, what if taking one for the team was the difference between a kill and a wipe. Say all the healers were oom and juggernaut was at 5% but no one had eaten the mine that was about to go off and AoE half the DPS out of the fight. Should you be penalized for eating it yourself and saving the rest of the raid?

I said in the post that I could see problems with it and this is one of them. The ideas suggested weren't supposed to be taken as a take-it-or-leave-it package either. The point to that one was to do something about people in 550+ gear--I saw one of these last weekend--that run into the fight, die nearly immediately--and then go AFK for a while. Any other suggestions as to how to deal with that would be of interest although I don't think that any of that is going anywhere beyond maybe the bit about 'Follow'. For some reason though I'm strangely attracted to the idea of an auto-res at a waypoint even though it marginalizes healers probably too much. The counter to that is that there are healers that aren't doing anything either and something like this might keep the raid alive. Seeing how it's Raid Finder, I'm on the fence about whether or not it would be completely terrible to eliminate wipes as long as sloppy play that gets you killed anyway should get you hit with something.