Should gear in LFR be based on performance?

[Giscoicus]

Using the legendary cloak to support your argument (which is a quest line, not a drop) is silly. It's one item from a long quest line that just happens to have items attainable via LFR. It's not like LFR drops legendaries every tier.

If someone is really upset that someone is getting the shittiest gear a tier has to offer, they have some personal issues they need to address. Just because it's purple and potentially better than a previous tier doesn't mean it's good gear for that tier.

Honestly, it makes no difference, I still wreck most people 10-15 ilvls higher than me, because most people are bad. Let them get their useless gear to stand around in and be useless. Don't you have better things to worry about?

Except that LFR dropped legendary quest items each tier. When people were progressing through tier 14, if they didn't have their Sha weapon yet where did they go? LFR. Tier 15, if a group wasn't 12/12 yet, people were in LFR for more chances at legendaries a week. Same as now up to 8/14. Why would it bother somebody who is 11/12 in ToT that they need to run LFR to maximize their potential? I wonder...

[Louis CK]

Except that LFR dropped legendary quest items each tier. When people were progressing through tier 14, if they didn't have their Sha weapon yet where did they go? LFR. Tier 15, if a group wasn't 12/12 yet, people were in LFR for more chances at legendaries a week. Same as now up to 8/14. Why would it bother somebody who is 11/12 in ToT that they need to run LFR to maximize their potential? I wonder...

So what? Are you mad that LFR people are outdpsing you?

[Giscoicus]

So what? Are you mad that LFR people are outdpsing you?

No, I'm mad that for the better part of this expansion I was doing 20%+ of boss damage while following mechanics because Blizzard bribes people to carry shitters in LFR, and I don't want to feel like deadweight in my guild.

I'm mad that LFR is the only form of "casual" content because my alts have nothing to do besides brain numbingly dull repeats of the raid on a lower difficulty.

I'm mad that we will face Cata heroics all over again because Blizzard keeps letting scrubs be scrubs and get rewards

[Ronduwil]

Can you quote me saying you would get LESS of a chance to get loot? No? Okay. The rest of your points can be ignored because you're ignoring things and putting words in my mouth.

If one player has more of a chance, then by definition another player has less of a chance. This thread is not about increasing everyone's chances to get loot. It's about increasing a good player's chance to get loot. By definition, the "bad" player perceives this as a decrease in his chance to get loot. In fact, I would argue that the good player doesn't need the loot as badly as the bad one so the proposal fails on that level too.

The whole point of LFR is to give "bad" players something to do. This is like attending a first grade math class, berating your fellow students for not being able to multiply, and demanding a reward system for students who can multiply knowing full well that you really have no business in that class and that you will likely be the only student who meets the criteria for that reward. If you're a good player your reward is that you get gear 18 that's ilevels higher from flex, gear that's 31 ilevels higher from normal, and gear that's 50 ilevels higher from heroic. That's already plenty of reward. If you don't like LFR then don't run it. It's that simple.

[Vaalyn]

Seen a lot of threads like this one.
Unfortunately loot or other rewards can't be tied to performance since the content was designed around the least common denominator.
Doing this would alienate the audience it is designed for.
Don't begrudge people for taking the easiest path. If you want more difficulty, there are other avenues available (Flex/Normal/Heroic).

[Louis CK]

No, I'm mad that for the better part of this expansion I was doing 20%+ of boss damage while following mechanics because Blizzard bribes people to carry shitters in LFR, and I don't want to feel like deadweight in my guild.

I'm mad that LFR is the only form of "casual" content because my alts have nothing to do besides brain numbingly dull repeats of the raid on a lower difficulty.

I'm mad that we will face Cata heroics all over again because Blizzard keeps letting scrubs be scrubs and get rewards

Okay, so the answer is to remove legendary drops from LFR in that case. Then there would be no need for real raiders to go. So yeah, I can see your frustration with feeling the need to run it for legendary drops. What I was arguing, however, was that shitty raids should drop shitty gear for shitty players and/or alts. In which case, no, there shouldn't be "performance based loot" in LFR.

We were discussing two different issues it seems. I agree that bribing people to run LFR who really don't want to run LFR is a little shitty.

[Ronduwil]

Sure, I can setup a WoL log, do the fight and log it, sit through it and go through what was wrong and what was right.

Good point, Ixuzcc. Let me add that you can do that because you're familiar with the fight, you're familiar with your group's personal strategy, and because of those two facts you're able to discern players who were performing their tasks properly from players who weren't. There is no automated way to do this because groups' strategies vary and players' roles vary. I can only conclude that the players calling for an automatic performance analyzer have either never raided or have always been told what to do in raid and have no idea as to how the criteria for good play can vary from fight to fight and even from group composition to group composition.

But Im not going to do that for LFR. Neither are you, Id wager.

Exactly. No computer program is capable of doing it either, at least not without extensive input from the raid leader. In LFR there is no way of knowing who the raid leader is because any idiot can select the green flag and mark themselves leader.

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Each time you die your chance for loot drops by 15%-20% or so.

I agreed with most of your suggestions but you lost me right there. Say I get imprisoned on the Pride fight and the group failed to free me. Why should I get a reduced chance at loot for that? Blizzard would either have to eliminate mechanics like that altogether or the penalty would have to be applied group-wide for every death. The latter would create even more problems because players would leave at the drop of a hat if they thought the group was going to reduce their chances of looting. Besides, what if taking one for the team was the difference between a kill and a wipe. Say all the healers were oom and juggernaut was at 5% but no one had eaten the mine that was about to go off and AoE half the DPS out of the fight. Should you be penalized for eating it yourself and saving the rest of the raid?

[Sansnom]

No, I'm mad that for the better part of this expansion I was doing 20%+ of boss damage while following mechanics because Blizzard bribes people to carry shitters in LFR, and I don't want to feel like deadweight in my guild.

Deadweight? Are you and your guild clearing contents with just the previous raid tier gear? If so, then why care about stepping into LFR?

Current raid tier is tuned for gear from the previous tier. If you missed a few pieces, then LFR is actually good news for you because it is easier than previous tier.

Guilds are clearing current tier with just previous tier gear. I would have expected you would be capable of doing the same.

[Ronduwil]

Dungeon journal explains the beam. Raid warning by Blizzard announces it. Eyesores don't hurt on LFR. It's an embarrassment that the goal of Durumu is nuke hard because you only have 8 living players after the beam.

Eyesores do hurt on LFR. I speak from experience because even after reading up on the fight and looking out for them I had trouble finding the gap to stand in for my first three or four attempts. Sure, now I know exactly where the gaps are going to appear and I can keep my character in them, but I died to eyesores those first three or four times. The difference is that when you first encountered those you were with your guild group and you either had one experienced player marked so that you could stack on him or half your group was failing right along with you. When you died you wiped it up and tried again until you had it down. LFR-only players don't have those luxuries. That's why the fight is now designed so that a handful of DPS can finish Durumu off after the eyesores.

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How would you feel if the new "kiddie" roller coaster was better than all the old rollercoasted considered to be adult rides?

Like a kid again. Besides, your point is invalid. I loved rollercoasters as a kid but they make me sick to my stomach now and I avoid them like the plague. I still take my kids to the theme park and let them have their fun, though. Sometimes it's good to do something nice for others even if you're not getting anything out of the experience for yourself. Why can't you be happy with your extra valor and your chance at an extra pet and let the others do what they will?

[slime]

I believe it already is, the worse you do - the more you afk and the less you perform to your ilvl the more likely you will get a drop.

[Ronduwil]

Legendary cloak is the worst gear? Wow, let me throw it out and equip the 5th cloak I coined from Immerseus.

Legendary cloak is not easily obtained, nor is it available exclusively through LFR. You're kind of downplaying the rep grind to exalted, a 3000 point valor grind, several world bosses, and a quest in which you solo a sha boss. I think that anyone who endures all that has earned their cloak, regardless of their level of play. If they're really a "baddie" then they're not going to finish that solo quest anyway.

[Vyse]

If they're really a "baddie" then they're not going to finish that solo quest anyway.

Yes, they are. Today, maybe it takes longer to get the legendary cloak, but its almost a 100% positive that everyone who wants it, and puts enough time in it, will get one. In TBC for example, you could play as much as you want, but you`d only get a pair of Glaives or the KJ Bow if you were really really good, and why is that? Because KILLING THESE BOSSES who dropped it took some good guild, and to be in a good progress oriented guild, you need to be an outstanding player.

Nowadays you dont, just invest your ~ 4 months (whatever) of time, and you got your legendary, no need for skill.

[Feuerbart]

Awarding loot based on performance would be absolutely fantastic. But with all the variables involved there is no chance in hell it would be feasible for Blizzard to calculate the values. Take two casters with 510 itemlevel. One has a 476 weapon the other has a 528 but lower other items. How big would you estimate the damage difference to be between these 2. And that is just one items influence. Do the same on a protection paladin and the weapons difference would be negletable. And now image this with all itemslots with great power. And then look at having the right buffs or not. Beeing the poor guy who gets chased by Thok 4-6 times in one P2.

This Problem should be solved by the community.

1. Most important accept mistakes by others.
2. Help others ( most difficult to bring this back since most players lash out on any critisism because of too many assholes with shitty comments in the last years)
3. Kick actual slackers ( if absolutly horrid dps is mentioned in lfr chat mostly i get "it´s lfr don´t worry" but at the same time each tankerror get "let´s kick the shitty tank" immediatly)
4. Make LFR a worthwile place to be ( i am disgusted about raid chat in lfr most of the times i go there - therefor i don´t go there much often anymore, but i am a tank who can not afk and get away with it, i even get yelled at when i die because the other tank didn´t taunt, so where is equal fotting in LFR? )

Edit: Don´t start a dps vs. tank debate on this. I dislike bad/lazy/afk tanks as much as dps or heals.

[Dvaldin]

Curiously, I find that many people are having a good time in the release LFR's now that they are over geared. Conclude that "leet" players zerg heroic dungeons for valor cap and LFR Siege for gear. (Note: "Leet" players are different from elite players. You know what I'm talking about).

[Ronduwil]

Yes, they are.

Really? A bad player is going to be able to keep out of the bad stuff on the ground, interrupt the sha before it can get its cast off and take his health down half way, and DPS enough to beat the timer? If they're able to handle all that during the course of the fight I would argue that they are not bad and are actually ready for real raids. Bad and inexperienced aren't the same thing.

In TBC for example, you could play as much as you want, but you`d only get a pair of Glaives or the KJ Bow if you were really really good

And then in Cataclysm I tagged along for a run just for the sake of getting the achievement and the glaives dropped, I happened to win the roll, and was awarded them. Why is that? Because this is just a game and RNG is RNG. If you want to participate in a system where performance is rewarded I suggest you pour more energy into a RL job and less energy into raiding at the highest levels of a game where you know that the highest levels are going to be trivialized within the next two expansions.

Because KILLING THESE BOSSES who dropped it took some good guild, and to be in a good progress oriented guild, you need to be an outstanding player.

AND your schedule has to line up with the other guildies' AND you have to be on their server AND you have to have the best application AND your class/spec has to be in demand AND you have to be able to tolerate wiping for hours on end on a single boss (ironically the whole reason this thread exists is because people can't tolerate one or two wipes per LFR run). Blizzard recognizes that this was not compelling gameplay for the majority, so we got flex and LFR.

[Sansnom]

Yes, they are. Today, maybe it takes longer to get the legendary cloak, but its almost a 100% positive that everyone who wants it, and puts enough time in it, will get one. In TBC for example, you could play as much as you want, but you`d only get a pair of Glaives or the KJ Bow if you were really really good, and why is that? Because KILLING THESE BOSSES who dropped it took some good guild, and to be in a good progress oriented guild, you need to be an outstanding player.

Nowadays you dont, just invest your ~ 4 months (whatever) of time, and you got your legendary, no need for skill.

I would not go far as saying you need to be really really good. Just need to be really really really lucky. A guild stuck in a lower progression is not primary because they were any worse than the guilds ahead. Just that there were more guild hopping going on.

Previous legendary was based on luck. Killed the boss? Did it drop? Nope. Too bad. Does not say anything about the player. That person could have been at the bottom of the DPS chart by a long margin but was lucky to be present when it dropped.

At least now, you want the item, you yourself needs to put in the effort to acquire it rather based on luck and the help from 9/24 other players.

[Viriel]

Base it on numbers? No. Base it on effort? Sure. The problem is, how to calculate effort!

[MasterHamster]

Wouldn't work.

[gamingmuscle]

No, I'm mad that for the better part of this expansion I was doing 20%+ of boss damage while following mechanics because Blizzard bribes people to carry shitters in LFR, and I don't want to feel like deadweight in my guild.

I'm mad that LFR is the only form of "casual" content because my alts have nothing to do besides brain numbingly dull repeats of the raid on a lower difficulty.

I'm mad that we will face Cata heroics all over again because Blizzard keeps letting scrubs be scrubs and get rewards

So you're mad because blizzard doesn't prevent you from using LFR to fix gaps? And you are mad cause there is content that isn't designed for you...and the people that it is designed for make use of it?

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YIn TBC for example, you could play as much as you want, but you`d only get a pair of Glaives or the KJ Bow if you were really really good

Illidan wasn't hard. Took a while cause of the drop chance. Bow I can't say guild drama nuked our sunwell chances.

A random drop from something that doesn't require much individual effort but a decent group effort. Oppose to something that actually required individual effort.

[Deleted]

Potentially you could get this supper complicated:
Chance based on
Damage done based on theoretical/average damage for on gear as well as Avoidable Damage taken compared to Unavoidable damage as well as utility usage based on encounters (more interrupts done the more chance, or at least more uses on interrupts incase in lfr you only need a few and people overlap)

Healers
Healing done based on damage taken, based on players healed, based on duration of healing

Tanks same as dps but damage taken ratio more important that damage done.

In doing that then pve ability can be rated then lfr teams can be balanced so the the lfrs are less likely to fail